Romans 8:29-30 Refuting Calvanism - Free will

[Tonydisciple]

Romans 8:29-30 Refuting Calvanism

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

These verses are amongst the most favourite of calvanist. A read of these two verses will make most people conclude that God predestined us, even against our free will.
But let’s examine free will. If we did not have free will then we would technically be programmed robots without a choice. God designed humans with a free will. We can determine if we will do ‘good’ or ‘evil’ so to speak. Given that, we do have the choice to repent and get right with God. This is how God is justified in condemning sinners to eternal hell because they had a choice/chance and they rejected it – they are responsible.

So if we do have a free will on the basis of getting right with God, then that means calvanism cannot be true. But how do we explain theses verses above. After studying this, I’ve concluded that Romans 8:29-30 is referring to the interceding spirit of God on those who would repent and believe. Let’s start. Firstly, ‘Foreknow’ means God foreknew who would repent, he also foreknew who would go to hell, but this is in the context of Christians. Rom8:29 - ‘Predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,’ this implies an action, a verb. So God performed an action on the behalf of those He knew would repent. Romans 8:26-27 implies this could mean the sending of the Holy Spirit to help guide those repentant believers. After all, if someone repented and did not have the spirit to guide him/her, how would they continue in the walk after God? Here are the verses that provide the context for Romans 8:29-30:

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

So we can see the context of Romans 8:29-30 is about the spirit making intercession to the saints. In other words, God knew before creation who would repent, and to those He knew would repent He acted in ordaining the guidance of the Holy Spirit so they would be preserved and not fall back into the world. Just remember, this does not mean we will have guaranteed salvation, we still have free will and can still reject God’s free gift.

If you are in doubt, do your own study – I’d encourage it. Please respond to this and tell me your views and what you think. I can go a lot further into scripture and theology in regard to this but I will keep it short. I hope to provoke discussion in regard to this heated portion of scripture.

 

[tribesman]

Romans 8:29-30 Refuting Calvanism

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

These verses are amongst the most favourite of calvanist. A read of these two verses will make most people conclude that God predestined us, even against our free will.
But let’s examine free will. If we did not have free will then we would technically be programmed robots without a choice. God designed humans with a free will. We can determine if we will do ‘good’ or ‘evil’ so to speak. Given that, we do have the choice to repent and get right with God. This is how God is justified in condemning sinners to eternal hell because they had a choice/chance and they rejected it – they are responsible.

So if we do have a free will on the basis of getting right with God, then that means calvanism cannot be true. But how do we explain theses verses above. After studying this, I’ve concluded that Romans 8:29-30 is referring to the interceding spirit of God on those who would repent and believe. Let’s start. Firstly, ‘Foreknow’ means God foreknew who would repent, he also foreknew who would go to hell, but this is in the context of Christians. Rom8:29 - ‘Predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,’ this implies an action, a verb. So God performed an action on the behalf of those He knew would repent. Romans 8:26-27 implies this could mean the sending of the Holy Spirit to help guide those repentant believers. After all, if someone repented and did not have the spirit to guide him/her, how would they continue in the walk after God? Here are the verses that provide the context for Romans 8:29-30:

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

So we can see the context of Romans 8:29-30 is about the spirit making intercession to the saints. In other words, God knew before creation who would repent, and to those He knew would repent He acted in ordaining the guidance of the Holy Spirit so they would be preserved and not fall back into the world. Just remember, this does not mean we will have guaranteed salvation, we still have free will and can still reject God’s free gift.

If you are in doubt, do your own study – I’d encourage it. Please respond to this and tell me your views and what you think. I can go a lot further into scripture and theology in regard to this but I will keep it short. I hope to provoke discussion in regard to this heated portion of scripture.

Firstly, it is calvinism and calvinist, not calvanism and calvanist. OK?

Secondly, if you think Calvin and calvinism invented the view that man has no free will in justification, then you need to do a better study. It was taught of others long before him. St. Augustine is one example. Luther also had the same view.

Thirdly, you leave out the fact that sinners are dead in their trespasses and sins before they are regenerated (Eph.2:1-3) and that as such they are totally unable to positively respond to God's call.

Your view makes salvation conditioned on the work of the sinner, not the work of Christ alone.

Here some related threads:

On total depravity and inability:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...pology-view-man-christ-paul-vs-pharisees.html <-link

Why the call to "choose life" and "choose ye this day whom ye will serve" are NOT universal calls:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/38300-deuteronomy-30-19-joshua-24-15-a.html <-link

Why the gospel call IS universal but does not imply universal ability to positively respond to it (against free-willism and antinomian hyper-calvinism)

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...lling-mark-1-14-15-repent-believe-gospel.html <-link

Why regeneration preceeds faith:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...h-fruit-spirit-heresy-work-flesh-gal-5-a.html <-link

 

[redemption]

Love the use of the spelling correction to quickly identify one as an intellectual inferior. Thank God my dyslexic son has proven to me that ones intelligence does not hang on the correct application of a vowel.

I read that first line and had trouble continuing on due to the tone.

 

[tribesman]

Love the use of the spelling correction to quickly identify one as an intellectual inferior. Thank God my dyslexic son has proven to me that ones intelligence does not hang on the correct application of a vowel.

I read that first line and had trouble continuing on due to the tone.

That calling on a spelling error (on the main topic) should mean to "identify one as an intellectual inferior" is nothing but your opinion. In this case dyslexia does not apply. I have made several spelling errors here at cc, some of which some has noted. There was no reason to take any offense at all.

 

[enochson]

Just flat wrong. Romans8;38-39 and before you say man's not in the list I'm sorry the bible say's you where a created thing.

 

[superdave5221]

Firstly, it is calvinism and calvinist, not calvanism and calvanist. OK?

Secondly, if you think Calvin and calvinism invented the view that man has no free will in justification, then you need to do a better study. It was taught of others long before him. St. Augustine is one example. Luther also had the same view.

Thirdly, you leave out the fact that sinners are dead in their trespasses and sins before they are regenerated (Eph.2:1-3) and that as such they are totally unable to positively respond to God's call.

Your view makes salvation conditioned on the work of the sinner, not the work of Christ alone.

Here some related threads:

On total depravity and inability:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...pology-view-man-christ-paul-vs-pharisees.html <-link

Why the call to "choose life" and "choose ye this day whom ye will serve" are NOT universal calls:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/38300-deuteronomy-30-19-joshua-24-15-a.html <-link

Why the gospel call IS universal but does not imply universal ability to positively respond to it (against free-willism and antinomian hyper-calvinism)

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...lling-mark-1-14-15-repent-believe-gospel.html <-link

Why regeneration preceeds faith:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...h-fruit-spirit-heresy-work-flesh-gal-5-a.html <-link

Did not Calvin himself say that there is unbelief within the breast of every Christian; but isn't there also belief within the breast of every non-Christian?

As Christians, we still struggle with unbelief at times. As we grow in our relationship with Christ and are sanctified by Holy Spirit, the unbelief should lessen over time.

Calvin stated that non-Christians also have a measure of belief. Why do you think that Calvin believed this? Is it because we are created in the image of God?

What then is total depravity? Is it the total lack of belief? Not according to Calvin. How much belief is necessary for one to make a conscious decision to accept Christ?

Are we just players on a cosmic stage to entertain God or do our decisions matter?

Is it man's free will that produces evil in the world, or are we to believe that God condones evil for the sake of justifying his predestination decisions? If we are predestined before birth to heaven or hell, then what is the purpose of life?

Does God predestine us to love Him? Does God force us to love Him, or do we love Him of our own free will? Is it possible to force someone to love?

 

[tribesman]

Did not Calvin himself say that there is unbelief within the breast of every Christian; but isn't there also belief within the breast of every non-Christian?

As Christians, we still struggle with unbelief at times. As we grow in our relationship with Christ and are sanctified by Holy Spirit, the unbelief should lessen over time.

Calvin stated that non-Christians also have a measure of belief. Why do you think that Calvin believed this? Is it because we are created in the image of God?

What then is total depravity? Is it the total lack of belief? Not according to Calvin. How much belief is necessary for one to make a conscious decision to accept Christ?

Are we just players on a cosmic stage to entertain God or do our decisions matter?

Is it man's free will that produces evil in the world, or are we to believe that God condones evil for the sake of justifying his predestination decisions? If we are predestined before birth to heaven or hell, then what is the purpose of life?

Does God predestine us to love Him? Does God force us to love Him, or do we love Him of our own free will? Is it possible to force someone to love?

Are you trying to say that Calvin insinuated that natural man can possess saving faith at will? He was quiet clear on that humans cannot arrive, by themselves, at the truth about God. Left on our own, we are only good idolaters. How does a dead person love?

 

[superdave5221]

Are you trying to say that Calvin insinuated that natural man can possess saving faith at will? He was quiet clear on that humans cannot arrive, by themselves, at the truth about God. Left on our own, we are only good idolaters. How does a dead person love?

I don't think that I insinuated that at all! In fact, I didn't insinuate anything at all. I simply posed some questions, that were perhaps leading, but yet are questions that deserve an answer.

Calvin said that everyone has some knowledge or belief in God [Institutes 3.2.18]. [The actual quote is taken from Faith has its reasons, by Kenneth D. Boa who quotes Calvin in his book]. Is that consistent with total depravity? The transformation is performed by Holy Spirit, which brings about "saving faith" through grace, but according to Calvin, there is some faith in all of us, (though not saving faith). If there is some faith, is there not some ability to make a conscious decision?

 

[Mediate]

If we had absolutely NO belief in 'something else', no slight glimpse of faith, no question, no moment where we ever said 'i wonder', then it would be hard to have faith at alll. I get what you are saying.

There has to be predestination. if God knows all, God knows what's going to happen. So in a way, that is predestination. It is the ability to see into the future and past with complete clarity.

Knowing all these things, being able to see all. God can shape and change things as He sees fit.

Loving God will do the best for us. We also have the free will to work towards doing the best for each other that's the part people forget

We have power given to us by God!

 

[tribesman]

I don't think that I insinuated that at all! In fact, I didn't insinuate anything at all. I simply posed some questions, that were perhaps leading, but yet are questions that deserve an answer.

OK. No problem.

Calvin said that everyone has some knowledge or belief in God [Institutes 3.2.18]. [The actual quote is taken from Faith has its reasons, by Kenneth D. Boa who quotes Calvin in his book]. Is that consistent with total depravity?

If the faith is not saving, yes.

The transformation is performed by Holy Spirit, which brings about "saving faith" through grace, but according to Calvin, there is some faith in all of us, (though not saving faith). If there is some faith, is there not some ability to make a conscious decision?

There is an illumination by the Spirit which gives knowledge on which faith rests (Institutes III.2.ii). Or more directly put:

When we call faith "knowledge" we do not mean comprehension of the sort that is commonly concerned with those things that fall under human sense perception. For faith is so far above sense that man's mind has to go beyond and rise above itself in order to attain it. Even where the mind has attained, it does not comprehend what it perceives. But being persuaded of what that which it does not grasp, by the very certainty of this persuasion it understands more than if it perceived anything human by its own capacity&#8230; Those things which we know through faith are nonetheless absent from us and go unseen. From this we conclude that the knowledge of faith consists in assurance rather than in comprehension (Institutes III.2.xiv).

If there is no saving faith available for natural man, who is ignorant of the above, then consequently there is no "decision" that God expects from him.

 

[superdave5221]

If we had absolutely NO belief in 'something else', no slight glimpse of faith, no question, no moment where we ever said 'i wonder', then it would be hard to have faith at alll. I get what you are saying.

There has to be predestination. if God knows all, God knows what's going to happen. So in a way, that is predestination. It is the ability to see into the future and past with complete clarity.

Knowing all these things, being able to see all. God can shape and change things as He sees fit.

Loving God will do the best for us. We also have the free will to work towards doing the best for each other that's the part people forget

We have power given to us by God!

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you are saying that we have free will in all things except in accepting Christ as our Savior. I have a problem with that analysis. But it is an interesting take.

Speaking of predestination. Let me give you something to think about.

Have you ever heard of Sierpinski's triangle? A Sierpinski triangle is one in which each of the three parts of the image is equal to the whole image. A Sierpinski triangle can be arrived at randomly. If we start with a regular triangle, label the three points 1,2,3, and then start at one of the points, we can then roll a die and each time move half way towards the point on the die and establish a point at that spot. If this is done often enough, eventually a Sierpinski triangle appears and becomes more clear the more repetitions there are. If done on a computer where 10,000 or 100,000 repetitions can be done quickly, it is quite amazing to behold. A Sierpinski triangle ALWAYS APPEARS if done often enough.

I give you this illustration to think about to wonder if an all knowing God can allow free will decisions by men, and yet know what will eventually happen.

What does it mean to say that Jesus was born in "the fullness of times"?

 

[superdave5221]

OK. No problem.

If the faith is not saving, yes.

There is an illumination by the Spirit which gives knowledge on which faith rests (Institutes III.2.ii). Or more directly put:

If there is no saving faith available for natural man, who is ignorant of the above, then consequently there is no "decision" that God expects from him.

So you confirm then that life has no meaning and our decisions do not matter?

 

[tribesman]

So you confirm then that life has no meaning and our decisions do not matter?

No, why would I? I only confirm that sinners are dead in their trespasses and sins, unable and unwilling to come to God, and that there is no free will in justification.

 

[Mediate]

That is not exactly what I meant to put forward but it certainly could be taken in that context, superdave5521.

It depends how you look at it. In God's great plan, he wishes us to be saved. In God's great plan, Christ is the only way for us to do that.

But there are angles to everything (kinda like a triangle).

For instance, I could say 'I once asked if there was something more to life. A God perhaps. So did my friend. We realised that everyone asks this question at least once'.

You could also say 'By asking that question, it shows that everyone needs God and the only way we can be free is through Christ'. Or you could say 'it is human nature to question things'.

So depending on what angle you look at something, it can appear in many different ways.

This is why I sometimes think that arguments/ discussions like this bear little fruit unless you actually strive to see the different angles and perspectives which the bible can speak to somebody.

For this very reason (The ability for different people to have different sight), we have different scriptural interpretations.

That is why I wholesomely respect your view and I believe that the word speaks to people in different ways because it is the way that God intended for it to speak to them. And also why I firmly believe that it is the intention that matters most and not the specific interpretation one takes.

 

[Mediate]

God will not look more at your heart, and whether it is in Jesus, and in love, than what denominational interpretation that you take my friend. This is my view as always in these matters of discussion.

 

[edward99]

I believe that sin (evil) entered God's creation before He created man - Lucifer, Satan and his angels rebelled first. They're a different order from us altogether. We're not told much about it, other than that he was created perfect in all his way UNTIL iniquity was "found in" that former cherubim (now the devil). They must really had what we like to call "free will". I do not know.

The entrance of rebellion and sin into the creation, before man was created MIGHT (and this is just surmising since we're not told) have something to do with God creating man...it may have something to do with satan's humiliation and defeat. I really don't know. The lake of fire was created for those angels, and they have no redemption.

I do know God is gathering a family to Himself from mankind.

Ephesians 3
1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles&#8212; 2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God&#8217;s grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God&#8217;s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. 8To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him. 13Therefore I ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf, for they are your glory.

?? I don't know.


But, we do have redemption, praise be to God Almighty, as God met the demands of His own Holiness by providing Himself an atonement for our sins in Christ Our Lord, The Lamb of God.


In any case, this "freewill" argument can hardly be separated from all men falling in Adam.

I've already had this discussion at length and am not into another debate on it today.

But for the record, I believe Adam and Eve were created pure and innocent and in communion with God, period.
They had no knowledge of anything BUT God and His Holiness from the start. Until they believed the devil and then they knew both good and evil. Evil had entered into the world.

Unlike Lucifer whose iniquity was apparently (again, we're not told what happened) generated from within himself, Adam and Eve were tempted from WITHOUT - something outside themselves.
The malevolent murderer himself, satan, masquerading as that angel of light (I do not believe the serpent was a literal snake).

Eve was deceived and Adam sinned. They fell. They just did. And we all fell with them.

We aren't told why God allowed this, but He did, and that's enough for me.
Unlike Adam did in the garden after the fall, I no longer blame God for my condition - I know I'm guilty enough of my own sin.

The passages of sin and a curse of death entering in to all of us through Adam are so numerous; and the universality of sin is so obvious that I won't even debate it any more. Christ's Cross planned from

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me&#8221;

&#8220;The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies&#8221;

&#8220;What is man, that he should be clean? And he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?&#8221;

&#8220;Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation,&#8221;

&#8220;by one man&#8217;s disobedience many were made sinners&#8221;

men deny they are sinners (offending God) because of &#8220;the blindness of their heart&#8221;

&#8220;The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned&#8221;

&#8220;That which is born of the flesh is flesh&#8221;

&#8220;If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us&#8221;



Anyway, I believe fully in the Sovereignty of God and that He knew all that would happen. He has a Plan and is in control. Free will to become holy enough to stand before God is ridiculous and unbiblical.

People talk about God's primary attribute being LOVE. But His primary attribute is Absolute Holiness!

We need Christ's Righteousness!

ed.

 

[superdave5221]

That is not exactly what I meant to put forward but it certainly could be taken in that context, superdave5521.

It depends how you look at it. In God's great plan, he wishes us to be saved. In God's great plan, Christ is the only way for us to do that.

But there are angles to everything (kinda like a triangle).

For instance, I could say 'I once asked if there was something more to life. A God perhaps. So did my friend. We realised that everyone asks this question at least once'.

You could also say 'By asking that question, it shows that everyone needs God and the only way we can be free is through Christ'. Or you could say 'it is human nature to question things'.

So depending on what angle you look at something, it can appear in many different ways.

This is why I sometimes think that arguments/ discussions like this bear little fruit unless you actually strive to see the different angles and perspectives which the bible can speak to somebody.

For this very reason (The ability for different people to have different sight), we have different scriptural interpretations.

That is why I wholesomely respect your view and I believe that the word speaks to people in different ways because it is the way that God intended for it to speak to them. And also why I firmly believe that it is the intention that matters most and not the specific interpretation one takes.

There are indeed different ways of interpreting scripture. You are wise in saying that we need each other's interpretations to see things in a light that we may not have seen. That is why Christian fellowship is so important. I believe that within the body of Christ, (Christ's church), there is an answer to all of life's questions utilizing a correct interpretation of scripture. But no one single person has all of the answers. That is why we need to consider the opinions of others with an open mind, and not dismiss those opinions which offend our presuppositions without a fair hearing.

It is my contention however, that if a consistent hermeneutic is applied to the biblical record in it's entirety, then even if there are some problems with the methods, the correct truth will be arrived at more often than not. It is a mistake to think that Holy Spirit does not appeal to reason in teaching truth, and a greater mistake to accept subjective evidence in determining truth, at the expense of reason. A correct balance must be maintained.

 

[Mediate]

I believe you are correct Edward. I also believe that man is a means to show these angels that God's way IS right. Of course it is slightly speculative but what purpose do the Children of God have other than to serve God and humble the angels who would not humble themselves.

The message of the bible is submission to God's will. The message is humility and servitude to God and to others.

And as for Adam and Eve, the Serpent was allowed into the Garden, else He wouldn't have gotten there. Satan has no power over God, but vice versa.

The fall was meant to happen.

Paul says that mysteries were revealed to Him that he hadn't seen before.

It all ties in. The plan includes the angels as it does us.

 

[Mediate]

I keep putting capitals on random 'him's. Habit.

 

[superdave5221]

I believe that sin (evil) entered God's creation before He created man - Lucifer, Satan and his angels rebelled first. They're a different order from us altogether. We're not told much about it, other than that he was created perfect in all his way UNTIL iniquity was "found in" that former cherubim (now the devil). They must really had what we like to call "free will". I do not know.


ed.

Hello Edward,

Do you find it incongruous that angels would be given "free will", and yet man, who was created in the image of God, would be denied this nature?

What I mean by free will here is not the ability of man to find God, or to save himself, or even to know if God exists or his need for Him, but the free will to accept or reject God's free gift when it is made known to him and offered to him.