Romans 8:29-30 Refuting Calvanism - Free will

[Nehemiah6]

By the way, Reformed theology isn't about proof-texting. It is a system which is coherent.

Coherent and coherently mistaken. If one domino falls, they all fall.

And it is a *system* but NOT the Gospel of God and Christ -- simply "another gospel".

The problem is that those who are brainwashed into believing this nonsense simply refuse to let it go even after they have been provided with Scriptures which refute their nonsense. That clearly shows that the doctrines of men seem to be more powerful than the Word of God (as Christ rebuked the scribes, lawyers, and Pharisees). They too has a theological *system" worked out but it was contrary to Scripture.

 

[Sudakar]

Romans 8:29-30 Refuting Calvanism

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

These verses are amongst the most favourite of calvanist. A read of these two verses will make most people conclude that God predestined us, even against our free will.
But let’s examine free will. If we did not have free will then we would technically be programmed robots without a choice. God designed humans with a free will. We can determine if we will do ‘good’ or ‘evil’ so to speak. Given that, we do have the choice to repent and get right with God. This is how God is justified in condemning sinners to eternal hell because they had a choice/chance and they rejected it – they are responsible.

So if we do have a free will on the basis of getting right with God, then that means calvanism cannot be true. But how do we explain theses verses above. After studying this, I’ve concluded that Romans 8:29-30 is referring to the interceding spirit of God on those who would repent and believe. Let’s start. Firstly, ‘Foreknow’ means God foreknew who would repent, he also foreknew who would go to hell, but this is in the context of Christians. Rom8:29 - ‘Predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,’ this implies an action, a verb. So God performed an action on the behalf of those He knew would repent. Romans 8:26-27 implies this could mean the sending of the Holy Spirit to help guide those repentant believers. After all, if someone repented and did not have the spirit to guide him/her, how would they continue in the walk after God? Here are the verses that provide the context for Romans 8:29-30:

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

So we can see the context of Romans 8:29-30 is about the spirit making intercession to the saints. In other words, God knew before creation who would repent, and to those He knew would repent He acted in ordaining the guidance of the Holy Spirit so they would be preserved and not fall back into the world. Just remember, this does not mean we will have guaranteed salvation, we still have free will and can still reject God’s free gift.

If you are in doubt, do your own study – I’d encourage it. Please respond to this and tell me your views and what you think. I can go a lot further into scripture and theology in regard to this but I will keep it short. I hope to provoke discussion in regard to this heated portion of scripture.

You assume God needs to be justified by His actions. Before whom?

 

[Deuteronomy]

You assume God needs to be justified by His actions. Before whom?

Hello Sudakar, the majority of this thread lay dormant from August 11th, 2012 until just a day or so ago. The member you are addressing in the OP shows as a "Guest" now, not a member (so I would say that your chances of getting a reply from him is pretty unlikely).

Just FYI.

~Deut

 

[bradriegg]

Faith/Belief precedes regeneration: John 20:31 "but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Romans 8:29-30 Refuting Calvanism

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

These verses are amongst the most favourite of calvanist. A read of these two verses will make most people conclude that God predestined us, even against our free will.
But let’s examine free will. If we did not have free will then we would technically be programmed robots without a choice. God designed humans with a free will. We can determine if we will do ‘good’ or ‘evil’ so to speak. Given that, we do have the choice to repent and get right with God. This is how God is justified in condemning sinners to eternal hell because they had a choice/chance and they rejected it – they are responsible.

So if we do have a free will on the basis of getting right with God, then that means calvanism cannot be true. But how do we explain theses verses above. After studying this, I’ve concluded that Romans 8:29-30 is referring to the interceding spirit of God on those who would repent and believe. Let’s start. Firstly, ‘Foreknow’ means God foreknew who would repent, he also foreknew who would go to hell, but this is in the context of Christians. Rom8:29 - ‘Predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,’ this implies an action, a verb. So God performed an action on the behalf of those He knew would repent. Romans 8:26-27 implies this could mean the sending of the Holy Spirit to help guide those repentant believers. After all, if someone repented and did not have the spirit to guide him/her, how would they continue in the walk after God? Here are the verses that provide the context for Romans 8:29-30:

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

So we can see the context of Romans 8:29-30 is about the spirit making intercession to the saints. In other words, God knew before creation who would repent, and to those He knew would repent He acted in ordaining the guidance of the Holy Spirit so they would be preserved and not fall back into the world. Just remember, this does not mean we will have guaranteed salvation, we still have free will and can still reject God’s free gift.

If you are in doubt, do your own study – I’d encourage it. Please respond to this and tell me your views and what you think. I can go a lot further into scripture and theology in regard to this but I will keep it short. I hope to provoke discussion in regard to this heated portion of scripture.

God does, indeed, give us a free will as to how we want to live our lives as we sojourn here on earth. There are many scriptures where God tells us to choose, or make choices about how we live our lives. God, however, does not leave mans eternal destination up to man's choice, because, by his foreknowledge, he saw that no one would understand and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are altogether become filthy, there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Ps 14:2,3). This is why he adopted some and had Jesus to pay the price of washing away their sins that he might have a people that would worship him and give him praise. In order to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught, all scripture must harmonize.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I thought you were going to refute Calvin?
You actually reiterated what he said.

 

[UnderGrace]

Coherent and coherently mistaken. If one domino falls, they all fall.

And it is a *system* but NOT the Gospel of God and Christ -- simply "another gospel".

The problem is that those who are brainwashed into believing this nonsense simply refuse to let it go even after they have been provided with Scriptures which refute their nonsense. That clearly shows that the doctrines of men seem to be more powerful than the Word of God (as Christ rebuked the scribes, lawyers, and Pharisees). They too has a theological *system" worked out but it was contrary to Scripture.

The system is flawed.

Amen!!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Faith/Belief precedes regeneration: John 20:31 "but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."

Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. A person cannot have spiritual faith until they are born again. 1 Cor 2:14 explains that the natural man cannot have spiritual faith. John 20:31, "life" in this scripture is not referring to eternal life, but life in Christ Jesus as we live here in this world. John 8:47, He that is of God, heareth God's words; ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. Faith and belief in spiritual things comes only after we are born again.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

AFTER a person is born again faith is either a fruit or a gift of the Holy Spirit.

But saving faith is generated by the preaching of the Gospel. Read and study Romans 10.

And saving faith indeed precedes the New Birth, which is a result of receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

AFTER a person is born again faith is either a fruit or a gift of the Holy Spirit.

But saving faith is generated by the preaching of the Gospel. Read and study Romans 10.

And saving faith indeed precedes the New Birth, which is a result of receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.

There is no eternal saving faith, other than the faith (faithfulness) of Jesus"s willingness to obey his Father's will and go to the cross to eternally save all of those that his Father gave to him, John 6:38. salvation, according to Strong's definition means "a deliverance". Our spiritual faith that we receive in the new birth can deliver (save) us many times over as we live here on earth. 1 Cor 2:14 says the natural man cannot have spiritual faith until he is born again. He only has faith in the things of the world, and that is not saving faith. We can increase our spiritual faith by coming to a knowledge of the truth as Paul indicates to those Israel people, who have a zeal of God (evidence that they have been born again) but are going about to establish their own righteousness through their works of the old law. Much like most on this forum are doing. Jesus instructed his Apostles to go preach to the lost sheep (God's born again children) of the house of Israel. This is what Paul was doing in Romans 10. All Israel is not of Israel. God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel. A lot of the scriptures using the word "Israel" is talking about Jacob, who is representative of God's elect people.

 

[Grandpa]

LOL...

It's hilarious how all these scholars on Christian chat can't even spell the theology they are criticizing

Tribesman was pretty awesome.

So was psychomom and abiding.

Haven't seen any of them around here for years.

 

[Grandpa]

Coherent and coherently mistaken. If one domino falls, they all fall.

And it is a *system* but NOT the Gospel of God and Christ -- simply "another gospel".

The problem is that those who are brainwashed into believing this nonsense simply refuse to let it go even after they have been provided with Scriptures which refute their nonsense. That clearly shows that the doctrines of men seem to be more powerful than the Word of God (as Christ rebuked the scribes, lawyers, and Pharisees). They too has a theological *system" worked out but it was contrary to Scripture.

If you are saved, and then study salvation and Christianity, what it actually is and how it works, the only conclusion you can come to is that it happened by the Will of God and not by the will of men.

Salvation is by the Power of God and not the strength and understanding of men.


No one knows this when they are coming to Christ. They don't know until after it is revealed. After study and prayer. It seems to the individual that they are making all the right choices and all the right prayers to CAUSE God to save them.

But study and prayer will reveal that no one comes to Christ unless they are drawn by the Father.

It is ALL a gift and it is the Will of God.


This causes necessary conclusions to be drawn when discussing scripture that those who still think it is by their own will and strength and understanding cannot see. Or perhaps will not see.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Salvation is by the Power of God and not the strength and understanding of men.

True. But after the Gospel is preached sinners must make A CONSCIOUS DECISION to obey the Gospel or not. And not all have obeyed the Gospel (Rom 10:16).

It is ALL a gift and it is the Will of God.

Salvation is God's gift to the sinner who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. And it is the will of God that ALL THE WORLD should be saved.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:16,17)

Why did Jesus repeat "the world" FOUR TIMES if He did not mean "the world"?

 

[Grandpa]

Salvation is God's gift to the sinner who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. And it is the will of God that ALL THE WORLD should be saved.

Romans 9:16-19
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

If it is the will of God that IF the world means every single person in the world will be saved, then it will happen.

It sure doesn't appear that is what's happening.

Maybe you misunderstand the verse you are quoting?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that

whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:16,17)

Why did Jesus repeat "the world" FOUR TIMES if He did not mean "the world"?

Maybe He meant world in a different way than what you are thinking?

He changed from the world to whosoever... Obviously something changed there.

How come He didn't say "for God so loved the world that the world should not perish?" Because that is NOT what He meant.

He meant that all generations starting right then have a chance through the Lord Jesus Christ. Otherwise, the whole world would be without hope, every generation.

 

[garee]

Faith/Belief precedes regeneration: John 20:31 "but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."

faith of God creates a understanding . That understanding is not of our own selfs.We have no faith by which could could prior to it working in us to both will and do the good pleasure
.

The free will not known by the disciples at first. By that kind of food strengthening our new souls. The will of his word or meat of the gospel
No food no will. Remaining subject to do the will of the father of lies. No man can serve two masters. as wills. No will of God working in us freely no salvation.

Free will defined ….

hn 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Romans 9:16-19
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

If it is the will of God that IF the world means every single person in the world will be saved, then it will happen.

It sure doesn't appear that is what's happening.

Maybe you misunderstand the verse you are quoting?



Maybe He meant world in a different way than what you are thinking?

He changed from the world to whosoever... Obviously something changed there.

How come He didn't say "for God so loved the world that the world should not perish?" Because that is NOT what He meant.

He meant that all generations starting right then have a chance through the Lord Jesus Christ. Otherwise, the whole world would be without hope, every generation.

Grandpa, I do not want to offend you because I believe in what you say in a lot of your posts. The word "believeth" that is used in John 3:16, is it not written in the present tense. Most students of the bible use it in future tense, such as "whosoever WILL BELIEVE". Is this the way you are using it?

 

[Grandpa]

Grandpa, I do not want to offend you because I believe in what you say in a lot of your posts. The word "believeth" that is used in John 3:16, is it not written in the present tense. Most students of the bible use it in future tense, such as "whosoever WILL BELIEVE". Is this the way you are using it?

I'm not offended.

I believe it is past, present and future. Like most everything else I believe.

People in the past believed in Christ.

People in the present believe in Christ.

People in the future will believe in Christ.

 

[Josefnospam]

Romans 8:29-30 Refuting Calvanism

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

These verses are amongst the most favourite of calvanist. A read of these two verses will make most people conclude that God predestined us, even against our free will.
But let’s examine free will. If we did not have free will then we would technically be programmed robots without a choice. God designed humans with a free will. We can determine if we will do ‘good’ or ‘evil’ so to speak. Given that, we do have the choice to repent and get right with God. This is how God is justified in condemning sinners to eternal hell because they had a choice/chance and they rejected it – they are responsible.

So if we do have a free will on the basis of getting right with God, then that means calvanism cannot be true. But how do we explain theses verses above. After studying this, I’ve concluded that Romans 8:29-30 is referring to the interceding spirit of God on those who would repent and believe. Let’s start. Firstly, ‘Foreknow’ means God foreknew who would repent, he also foreknew who would go to hell, but this is in the context of Christians. Rom8:29 - ‘Predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,’ this implies an action, a verb. So God performed an action on the behalf of those He knew would repent. Romans 8:26-27 implies this could mean the sending of the Holy Spirit to help guide those repentant believers. After all, if someone repented and did not have the spirit to guide him/her, how would they continue in the walk after God? Here are the verses that provide the context for Romans 8:29-30:

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

So we can see the context of Romans 8:29-30 is about the spirit making intercession to the saints. In other words, God knew before creation who would repent, and to those He knew would repent He acted in ordaining the guidance of the Holy Spirit so they would be preserved and not fall back into the world. Just remember, this does not mean we will have guaranteed salvation, we still have free will and can still reject God’s free gift.

If you are in doubt, do your own study – I’d encourage it. Please respond to this and tell me your views and what you think. I can go a lot further into scripture and theology in regard to this but I will keep it short. I hope to provoke discussion in regard to this heated portion of scripture.

This is pure fiction and imagination. Not a point to be hashed out or debated No profit in debating this. God has a people and knows who they are..Thank God for his son The Savior who gives eternal life to whom he wills

 

[garee]

Grandpa, I do not want to offend you because I believe in what you say in a lot of your posts. The word "believeth" that is used in John 3:16, is it not written in the present tense. Most students of the bible use it in future tense, such as "whosoever WILL BELIEVE". Is this the way you are using it?

No time reference not when if a person is given the faith to believe. But if he is given it as it is written