Faith or Law?

[Toknow]

No Scripture? Ah, so quoting Jesus is “no Scripture”.

Okay.

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."

Happy now?

You're very combative Dino.

You come here to fight or to discuss?

Please do not respond to any of my posts if you just want to fight.

I did NOT say you provided no scripture.

 

[Toknow]

The Koine Greek word 'Pistis' is translated as believe or faith, in something or someone.

Believe or faith means to be convinced of someone or something. If we believe in
the biblical sense of the word, then we are trusting Christ to save us. Not a good life, church
attendance, baptism, taking of the sacraments, or keeping of the commandments.

You said "Why all the verses".

I gave you only the occurrence of 'believe' in John's gospel and part of Acts.

There are 500 verses in the N.T with either 'believe' or 'faith'.

To believe in Jesus is the N.T.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

I see.

Another Christian that does not care to follow what Jesus taught.

So,,,according to you you could be saved

BUT NOT FOLLOW/BE A DISCIPLE of the One you believe is saving you?



What does believe mean in the original greek language which you have even posted.....

Is it a mental belief?
Even demons believe Jesus.

AND

You do not believe in living a good life.
You do not believe in baptism.
And you do not believe in keeping the commandments.

I sure hope @mailmandan sees your post.

What does HE have to do with this?
Not your concern.

Your concern should be:
How can a person be saved if they do not believe anything Jesus taught.

Jesus taught that we are to follow/act upon His teachings...
that means living a good life.


Matthew 7:24-27

THE WISE MAN .....notice that the wise man ACTED on the words of Jesus and his house did not fall.

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.


THE FOOLISH MAN .... notice that the foolish man DID NOT ACT on the words of Jesus and his house did fall.



26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”


Jesus also said that we are to be baptized.
What else about what Jesus taught do you reject?


Seems as if you have only a mental belief.

Believe, in the Greek as it is used in the NT, does NOT mean only a mental belief.

 

[Toknow]

Quote your source watchman and don't peddle your opinion.

The Greek word for "believe" is πιστεύω, which appears in the New Testament to mean trust, have faith in,
or rely upon. It stems from the root noun pistis (faith) and often implies deep conviction and commitment
rather than just intellectual agreement.
Key Aspects of πιστεύω (Pisteuō):
Definition: To believe, to have faith, to trust, to entrust.

"Faith" in Greek, particularly in the New Testament, is pistis (πίστις). It represents a deep, unwavering trust, confidence, fidelity, and belief, going beyond intellectual assent to include active reliance, faithfulness, and conviction. It implies a personal relationship or allegiance, rather than just a set of beliefs.
Meaning: Derived from the verb peithō (persuade/believe), pistis encompasses faith, trust, belief, assurance, and fidelity.

To have faith and to believe are both the same word in any translation.

You can use either English word in a translation.

Yes, pistis (πίστις) can be translated as both "faith" and "believe" (or belief), as it refers to a broad concept of trust, confidence, assurance, and fidelity. While often translated as "faith" in the New Testament, it also encompasses "belief" and "faithfulness," representing a deep reliance on someone or something. (Google)

@Watchman22 is 100% correct in his explanation of the word BELLIEVE.

It is only those that are made uncomfortable by its meaning that reject the meaning.

If you BELIEVE in Jesus
you will DO what He taught.

You said it includes FIDELITY.

So are you faithful to Jesus if you do not obey Him?

And post to others that a good life is not necessary?


This is what Jesus said: in whatever language He said it in.....



Matthew 5:19-20
19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.



What do you think it means that our righteousness has to SURPASS that of the pharisees?

 

[Toknow]

We agree there. Sorry for my bluntness .

38 years camping on that stumbling block.

So watchman....
what DOES believe mean?

Are we to ACT on the words of Jesus or not?

Did Jesus teach Greek lessons or did He teach HOW we are to live?

 

[Journey_man]

Just fell on this .....
Yes. I doubt we are able to have the character traits of Jesus.
Maybe if one is mormon he might believe this.



So what IS a good work?
Maybe if it's difficult you're doing more than Jesus might be requesting of you?



Amen to that!
Some on these forums don't even think obedience to God is all that important.
Seems they sure do give a lot of pushback when I state that God demands obedience from us.
Seems that they believe it's a choice...


Agreed 100%
Alhtough I do believe that at some point the broad road will not seem to enticing to us who are on the narrow road.

You're not "falling away".....falling away causes one to lose their salvation...
what you're doing is sinning
and John taught us the remedy for this....
(and sinning is different than living in sin..just to be clear)


1 John 1:7-9
7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There is a verse in the Old Testament, that says "our best works are as filthy rags in Gods sight". From memory, the context of the verse has something to do with offering up something to the Lord, with a selfish motive.

It also reminds me of the Pharisee in Luke 18:11-12 "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess'". "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess'".

Our good works may not be acceptable to the Lord, if they are not done in the right spirit and for the right reason.
I've sent money to TV Evangelists in the past, they convinced me that I was doing a good work by sending them money and God would bless me for it. I did it with the expectation of receiving back ten fold, but of 'course it never come to fruition, because my motive was wrong.

I now believe that every good work must be accompanied by faith and humility. The Bible says that God loves a cheerful giver, so unless our offering is from the heart with the right motivation, it won't please God.

Every believer is at different stages of their journey to glory, God works on our heart to transform our very nature. This work takes time, and we will stumble and fall along the way, but we won't fall away forever. God draws us back to Himself, and we become Christlike in the life to come. But until then we just have to wrestle against our old nature everyday.

 

[Journey_man]

To use an analogy, if two people came to a bridge that they were told that it was safe to cross and the first one chooses to stand there mentally affirming that it is safe while the second one chooses to cross the bridge, then the second one would be experiencing what it means to believe that the bridge is safe in a way that the first one is not, or in other words, second one would be embodying their belief and would be showing the kind of belief that the Bible is speaking about by believing in the Son. What exactly are we believing about the Son? The Son is the radiance if God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), so if our goal is to be like the Son, then the way to experience the belief that the Son is righteous is by being a doer of righteous works. In Luke 6:36, it says to be compassionate even as our Father is compassionate, so someone choosing to just mentally affirming that the Father is compassionate without being compassionate is not correctly understanding what it means to believe that God is compassionate..


I agree on one level that we should follow what God has commanded simply because Jesus is Lord, but there is more to it than that. God could have conceivably commanded anything that He wanted, but His commands are not arbitrary, rather there is purpose in everything that God chose to command, which is to teach us how to know Him by embodying His character traits. The Hebrew word “yada” refers to intimate relationships/knowledge gained by experience, such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God’s way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus the experience of embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach us how to have an intimate relationship with God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life.

There seem to be two main views held by most Christians. One group claims they do good works, to show their gratitude to God for saving them.
The other group claims they do good works, to claim the promise of salvation for obeying the gospel.
The first group believes that a person is saved, when they are converted. So they can never lose their salvation because it's a done deal.
The second group believe that salvation can be lost if the saved person doesn't remain faithful for the rest of their lives. You mentioned those who Christ turned away, as an example of how salvation is lost.
I'd rather avoid getting booged down in a discussion about which of the two sides is biblically correct. I'd rather try to understand how we can "embody the Caracter traits of the lord Jesus". I try to obey the commandments and I try to live a life of righteousness, but I can assure you I fail miserably on both counts. I find myself repenting everyday and asking for forgiveness for my shortcomings.

It seems that no matter how hard I try not to sin, I still stumble and fall into sin everyday. I told my pastor, that my sin is causing me to be angry and frustrated with myself. I told him how hard I try not to sin and yet it still happens everyday. His response surprised me, he said I'm pleased to hear it and I will pray that God gives you no peace when you sin.

The pastor quoted Matthew 5:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4; Blessed are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted.

The pastor said "I noticed you were week in spirit and you were mourning over your sin" I wasn't quite sure what he meant at first, but then i realised he meant he was glad that I'm not comfortable with my sin, so that means that I'm fighting the good fight.

 

[Soyeong]

There seem to be two main views held by most Christians. One group claims they do good works, to show their gratitude to God for saving them.
The other group claims they do good works, to claim the promise of salvation for obeying the gospel.
The first group believes that a person is saved, when they are converted. So they can never lose their salvation because it's a done deal.
The second group believe that salvation can be lost if the saved person doesn't remain faithful for the rest of their lives. You mentioned those who Christ turned away, as an example of how salvation is lost.
I'd rather avoid getting booged down in a discussion about which of the two sides is biblically correct. I'd rather try to understand how we can "embody the Caracter traits of the lord Jesus". I try to obey the commandments and I try to live a life of righteousness, but I can assure you I fail miserably on both counts. I find myself repenting everyday and asking for forgiveness for my shortcomings.

It seems that no matter how hard I try not to sin, I still stumble and fall into sin everyday. I told my pastor, that my sin is causing me to be angry and frustrated with myself. I told him how hard I try not to sin and yet it still happens everyday. His response surprised me, he said I'm pleased to hear it and I will pray that God gives you no peace when you sin.

The pastor quoted Matthew 5:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4; Blessed are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted.

The pastor said "I noticed you were week in spirit and you were mourning over your sin" I wasn't quite sure what he meant at first, but then i realised he meant he was glad that I'm not comfortable with my sin, so that means that I'm fighting the good fight.

I take the middle position that we are not required to obey the Law of God in order to become saved as the result and we are not required to obey it as the result of having first been saved, but rather we are intrinsically required to be a doer of it before God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of it is the way that He is giving us His gift of saving us from not having that experience (Titus 2:11-13).

I don’t think that anyone who is participating in that training, who struggles with sin, and who is grieved by their sin has lost their salvation, but whether someone can lose their salvation if they deliberately turn their back on God and ceased to be a doer of those things is another issue.

The more times that we make a choice the easier it becomes to make it again, so repetition and consistency are more important than amount. For example, someone would be building more godly character by choosing to give $1 to charity every day than by giving $400 once a year. So try to find something small that you can choose to do to improve in the areas that you struggle with sin and be repetitive and consistent about it.

 

[Watchman22]

So watchman....
what DOES believe mean?

Are we to ACT on the words of Jesus or not?

Did Jesus teach Greek lessons or did He teach HOW we are to live?

We faithe into Him.

What that means is, as the result of Pistis, "faith" the noun, and pisteuo, "faithing" the verb, which is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Not just believing. The word believe is a mistranslation.

As the result of Him accepting the surrendered life, and sealing in us a piece of Himself, we will be seen by the Father as just like Christ, "justified".

As the result of being seen as "just like Christ," will will be seen as obedient "just like Christ."

We are seen as obedient by our actions, because of Christ dwelling in us by a continually surrendered life. Not by trying to be obedient.

It's a continual thread throughout the scriptures.
By faith, a firm conviction.
In faith, in a continually surrendered life.
Through faith, through a continually surrendered life.

 

[Watchman22]

So watchman....
what DOES believe mean?

Are we to ACT on the words of Jesus or not?

Did Jesus teach Greek lessons or did He teach HOW we are to live?

Because neither side of this discussion understands faith and faithing correctly, both sides are in error.

 

[Watchman22]

So watchman....
what DOES believe mean?

Are we to ACT on the words of Jesus or not?

Did Jesus teach Greek lessons or did He teach HOW we are to live?

That may not be the answer you were looking for, but thanks for asking the question.

If you have follow-up questions, feel free to ask.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Then do you take the position that someone is not courageous unless they have been perfectly courageous throughout their entire life? Or if someone has done one courageous thing in their life, then they can't be considered to be a coward? Is there anyone that you think is courageous?

There are no people alive today that are without sin in their lives.

Even if they repent?

They are not exempted from the penalty of their sins because they repent or because they obey the law most of the time. If they are exempted from the penalty of their sins, it is because God has laid their iniquity on Jesus.

Agreed. I did not claim that we can become saved from the penalty of our sin as the result of embodying God's character traits.

But you do not recognize that commiting sin earns death -- meaning that having a character trait of not sinning does not help when a person sins because committing the sin earns death regardless of how much law abiding preceeds the sin or follows the sin.

If someone were zealous for committing as much sin as they could and they were freed from any penalty for doing that, then their salvation from sin would be incomplete

This, of course, comes from the point of view of the flesh. The flesh sees grace as an opportunity to sin and get away with it (see Romans 6:1 and Romans 6:15). But the Spirit calls us to liberty and teaches us to not use our liberty as a cloak for vice (Gal 5:13).

, so while forgiveness is part of it there is more to what saves them than just forgiveness.

I believe this may be the key to understanding your doctrine. If Jesus exempting us from His wrath because He bore our sins is not enough to save us from eternal damnation, then what does exempt us?

In Titus 2:14, it does not just say that Jesus gave himself to pay the penalty for our sins but also to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works.

What is missing from this conversation is "the true righteousness and holiness" of the new man that God created (Eph 4:24) when He came to live in our hearts. This is not a character trait, but new life in Christ Jesus.

 

[Sipsey]

There is a verse in the Old Testament, that says "our best works are as filthy rags in Gods sight". From memory, the context of the verse has something to do with offering up something to the Lord, with a selfish motive.

It also reminds me of the Pharisee in Luke 18:11-12 "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess'". "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess'".

Our good works may not be acceptable to the Lord, if they are not done in the right spirit and for the right reason.
I've sent money to TV Evangelists in the past, they convinced me that I was doing a good work by sending them money and God would bless me for it. I did it with the expectation of receiving back ten fold, but of 'course it never come to fruition, because my motive was wrong.

I now believe that every good work must be accompanied by faith and humility. The Bible says that God loves a cheerful giver, so unless our offering is from the heart with the right motivation, it won't please God.

Every believer is at different stages of their journey to glory, God works on our heart to transform our very nature. This work takes time, and we will stumble and fall along the way, but we won't fall away forever. God draws us back to Himself, and we become Christlike in the life to come. But until then we just have to wrestle against our old nature everyday.

There is a verse in the Old Testament, that says "our best works are as filthy rags in Gods sight".
The key words are:
כְּבֶגֶד עִדִּים
ke·véged ʿiddîm
Literally: “like a garment of menstruation”


It has been a while since I visited that verse, but my understanding is that those “filthy rags” did not necessarily only emphasize that something was “unclean.” Those rags could also be understood to mean that there was no life in the womb, and indicate a deeper meaning.

 

[Soyeong]

There is a verse in the Old Testament, that says "our best works are as filthy rags in Gods sight".
The key words are:
כְּבֶגֶד עִדִּים
ke·véged ʿiddîm
Literally: “like a garment of menstruation”


It has been a while since I visited that verse, but my understanding is that those “filthy rags” did not necessarily only emphasize that something was “unclean.” Those rags could also be understood to mean that there was no life in the womb, and indicate a deeper meaning.

In Isaiah 64:6, it is not speaking about how God views our best works, but rather it is the people hyperbolically complaining about God not coming down and making His presence known. The reality is that God is not a commander of filthy rags but that the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8).

 

[Dino246]

I did NOT say you provided no scripture.

You clearly implied it. If you don’t appreciate being called out on your bad behaviour, don’t behave badly.

 

[Dino246]

Faith AND law, no false dichotomies.

You might want to read Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews.

 

[Toknow]

You might want to read Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews.

is this the best you got Dino??

You come here to argue and accuse persons.
You probably know nothing about theology.

You have a strange idea of what fun is.

@Lovette should stop posting to you....
maybe move on to someone that knows scripture and can respond.

Jesus said we are to obey Him....

If you don't want to, that's your choice.

And @Soyeong has a better grasp of scripture than you do.

 

[HeIsHere]

is this the best you got Dino??

You come here to argue and accuse persons.
You probably know nothing about theology.

You have a strange idea of what fun is.

@Lovette should stop posting to you....
maybe move on to someone that knows scripture and can respond.

Jesus said we are to obey Him....

If you don't want to, that's your choice.

And @Soyeong has a better grasp of scripture than you do.

I highly doubt that.

 

[Toknow]

We faithe into Him.

What that means is, as the result of Pistis, "faith" the noun, and pisteuo, "faithing" the verb, which is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Not just believing. The word believe is a mistranslation.

As the result of Him accepting the surrendered life, and sealing in us a piece of Himself, we will be seen by the Father as just like Christ, "justified".

As the result of being seen as "just like Christ," will will be seen as obedient "just like Christ."

We are seen as obedient by our actions, because of Christ dwelling in us by a continually surrendered life. Not by trying to be obedient.

It's a continual thread throughout the scriptures.
By faith, a firm conviction.
In faith, in a continually surrendered life.
Through faith, through a continually surrendered life.

OK
Agreed that when God looks at us, He sees His Son.

But you're post is confusing to say the least.

You said that:

We are seen as obedient by our actions, because of Christ dwelling in us by a continually surrendered life.

OK

this is true,,,

but then you added:


Not by trying to be obedient.


So the question is:
Are we supposed to be obedient to Jesus or not?

It SOUNDS like you're saying we don't have to be.

 

[Toknow]

I highly doubt that.

You must have fallen in love with me!
Get in line Jeff.

You do like to follow me around.
I used to ban members for doing what you're doing.
But I guess we need to get our fun somewhere.

 

[Toknow]

Because neither side of this discussion understands faith and faithing correctly, both sides are in error.

What are the two sides?