Faith or Law?

[Journey_man]

There is a difference between these two positions:

1.) Our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of God.

2.) Our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of God in order to earn it as the result.

The Bible affirms 1 white denying 2 and the problem is people commonly use verses that deny 2 in order to argue against 1. For example, in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawless to depart from him because he never knew them, so there is a reason why our entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to choose to be workers of lawfulness, but the reason is not in order to work for it. So I also totally reject the idea that we must work for our salvation because that was never the for reason why our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of God.

What if we merged the two positions into one, as we see in - James 2:26 which reads: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also".

Faith and works seem to go hand in hand. Some try to divorce the two, and force us to choose one or the other.
Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
This verses encapsulates the gospel message, if we believe the gospel, then we are believers and believers are saved according to Christ.

 

[Dino246]

There is a difference between these two positions:

1.) Our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of God.

2.) Our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of God in order to earn it as the result.

The Bible affirms 1 white denying 2 and the problem is people commonly use verses that deny 2 in order to argue against 1. For example, in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawless to depart from him because he never knew them, so there is a reason why our entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to choose to be workers of lawfulness, but the reason is not in order to work for it. So I also totally reject the idea that we must work for our salvation because that was never the for reason why our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of God.

Neither position is correct.

By grace through faith we have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. We no longer live under the power of sin, and we are no longer under the law.

The law is a tutor to bring us to Christ. Christ is the end of the law for those who believe.

 

[Soyeong]

What if we merged the two positions into one, as we see in - James 2:26 which reads: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also".

Faith and works seem to go hand in hand. Some try to divorce the two, and force us to choose one or the other.
Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
This verses encapsulates the gospel message, if we believe the gospel, then we are believers and believers are saved according to Christ.

I agree that faith and works go hand in hand. The reason why our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of God is because that is the way to have faith, not in order to earn it as the result. In Romans 10:5-10, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, in regard to what we are committing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead for salvation.

 

[Journey_man]

I agree that faith and works go hand in hand. The reason why our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of God is because that is the way to have faith, not in order to earn it as the result. In Romans 10:5-10, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, in regard to what we are committing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead for salvation.

If I understand you correctly, you believe that our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the law of God in order to have faith.

The law of God is not too difficult to keep for those who are led by the Holy Spirit. The sins of the believer are not counted against him, because the Lord Jesus has atoned for them. That's not a licence to sin, but it's a promise that God will finish the work of salvation which He began.

 

[Soyeong]

If I understand you correctly, you believe that our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the law of God in order to have faith.

The law of God is not too difficult to keep for those who are led by the Holy Spirit. The sins of the believer are not counted against him, because the Lord Jesus has atoned for them. That's not a licence to sin, but it's a promise that God will finish the work of salvation which He began.

We embody what we believe to be true about God through our works, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James believes in God. In other words, the way to believe in God is by embodying His character traits. For example, our good works in obedience to the Law of God embody God’s goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by embodying God’s goodness we are also embodying the belief that God is good. Likewise, the way to believe that God is compassionate is by being compassionate (Luke 6:36), the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as he is holy (1 Peter 1:16). This is exactly the same as the way to believe in the Son, who is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God. This is also why the Bible frequently connects our faith in God with our obedience to Him, such as with Revelation 14:12 where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God’s commandments.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

There is a difference between these two positions:

1.) Our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of God.

2.) Our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of God in order to earn it as the result.

The Bible affirms 1 white denying 2 and the problem is people commonly use verses that deny 2 in order to argue against 1. For example, in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawless to depart from him because he never knew them, so there is a reason why our entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to choose to be workers of lawfulness, but the reason is not in order to work for it. So I also totally reject the idea that we must work for our salvation because that was never the for reason why our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of God.

It seems as though you are trying to distance yourself from salvation by works. That's a good thing because it is not possible for a person to be saved because of his works of righteousness...

"not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Tt 3:5)​

Please explain number 1 above in a way that does not make salvation contingent on choosing to be doers of God's laws. The only way out I see is to say that salvation causes our new hearts to be aligned with God's will. But your wording that our salvation "requires" us to make a choice seems to eliminate that way out.

 

[Soyeong]

It seems as though you are trying to distance yourself from salvation by works. That's a good thing because it is not possible for a person to be saved because of his works of righteousness...

"not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Tt 3:5)​

Please explain number 1 above in a way that does not make salvation contingent on choosing to be doers of God's laws. The only way out I see is to say that salvation causes our new hearts to be aligned with God's will. But your wording that our salvation "requires" us to make a choice seems to eliminate that way out.

The content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it it or to experience getting to drive it, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to experience driving it as the result. Our obedience to the Law of God contributes nothing towards earning our salvation as the result (Titus 3:5), but rather rather our salvation intrinsically requires us to choose to be a doer of the Law of God because the experience of being a doer of it part of the content of His gift of salvation. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not extrinsically required to have first done those works first in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not extrinsically required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather we are intrinsically required to be doers of those works because God graciously teaching us to experience being doers of them is part of the content of His gift of salvation.

 

[TruthDefender]

For those who think we are still under the Law, God has spoken:

-"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith.""
Galatians 3:10-11 NKJV

-"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Galatians 3:13-14 NKJV

 

[Soyeong]

For those who think we are still under the Law, God has spoken:

-"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith.""
Galatians 3:10-11 NKJV

-"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Galatians 3:13-14 NKJV

In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, in Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted the Book of the Law with "works of the law", and in Romans 3:31, he said that our faith upholds the Law of God in contrast with Galatians 3:10-12 where he said that "works of the law" are not of faith, so that phrase does not refer to the Law of God, which is why it is not of faith. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also true worthy (Psalm 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions, it would be contradictory to think that we should rely on God but not on His instructions, and the position that God is a giver of untrustworthy instructions that are not faith denies the trustworthiness and faithfulness of God.

According to Deuteronomy 27-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. Rather, the fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law straightforwardly means that the way to avoid being cursed is by continuing to do everything in the Book of the Law and that those who rely on "works of the law" instead thereby come under that curse. '

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys the Law of God shall attain life by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Law of God. Moreover, the context of Habakkuk 2 does not present the righteous living by faith as being a way of living that is an alternative to living in obedience to the Law of God. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Law of God, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God is righteous even as they are righteous, so the righteous living by faith does refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to, but rather it is describing the manner that th righteous live in obedience to it.

In Deuteronomy 28, it describes the blessing of lawfulness and the curse of lawlessness, so Christ redeeming us from the curse of the law is redeeming us form our lawlessness so that we can be free to enjoy the blessing of becoming workers of lawfulness. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the Law of Moses, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law. Likewise, the Law of Moses is how we know how to be blessed (Psalms 119:1-3), so the way that the blessing of Abraham comes to the Gentiles is by turning Gentiles form their wickedness and by teaching the to obey the Law of Moses in accordance with spreading the Gospel message (Acts 3:25-26).

 

[TruthDefender]

In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, in Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted the Book of the Law with "works of the law", and in Romans 3:31, he said that our faith upholds the Law of God in contrast with Galatians 3:10-12 where he said that "works of the law" are not of faith, so that phrase does not refer to the Law of God, which is why it is not of faith. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also true worthy (Psalm 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions, it would be contradictory to think that we should rely on God but not on His instructions, and the position that God is a giver of untrustworthy instructions that are not faith denies the trustworthiness and faithfulness of God.

According to Deuteronomy 27-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. Rather, the fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law straightforwardly means that the way to avoid being cursed is by continuing to do everything in the Book of the Law and that those who rely on "works of the law" instead thereby come under that curse. '

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys the Law of God shall attain life by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Law of God. Moreover, the context of Habakkuk 2 does not present the righteous living by faith as being a way of living that is an alternative to living in obedience to the Law of God. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Law of God, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God is righteous even as they are righteous, so the righteous living by faith does refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to, but rather it is describing the manner that th righteous live in obedience to it.

In Deuteronomy 28, it describes the blessing of lawfulness and the curse of lawlessness, so Christ redeeming us from the curse of the law is redeeming us form our lawlessness so that we can be free to enjoy the blessing of becoming workers of lawfulness. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the Law of Moses, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law. Likewise, the Law of Moses is how we know how to be blessed (Psalms 119:1-3), so the way that the blessing of Abraham comes to the Gentiles is by turning Gentiles form their wickedness and by teaching the to obey the Law of Moses in accordance with spreading the Gospel message (Acts 3:25-26).

What you said is not Scriptural, but rather twisting Scripture to fit your word salad.

All of the Scripture that I gave are from God. He means exactly what He said! There is no twisting or wresting Scripture.

You’re telling us not to believe in what He said, in what we are reading! Wow!
You seem to cherry pick verses to fit your word salad.

 

[Soyeong]

What you said is not Scriptural, but rather twisting Scripture to fit your word salad.

All of the Scripture that I gave are from God. He means exactly what He said! There is no twisting or wresting Scripture.

You’re telling us not to believe in what He said, in what we are reading! Wow!
You seem to cherry pick verses to fit your word salad.

I based everything that I said on Scripture, so your accusation of it not being Scriptural has no foundation. If you think that I twisted Scripture, then by all means please make the case for it, but there is no point in you accusing me of something without giving any sort of justification for it. If you think that I quoted a verses out of context, then please make the case for it because again there is no point in you accusing me of things within giving justification. If you don't understand something that I said, then I would be happy to clarify it for you. I said nothing to deny that those verses are from God, or to deny that they mean exactly what He, or to deny that we should believe what He said, but rather I spoke in regard to how we should understand those verses and I raised some more problems with how you are interesting them. It doesn't work to interpret Paul as quoting from a passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage, especially when Paul considered that passage to be Scripture. It should not make sense to you to interpret a servant of God in a way that turns him against obeying what He has commanded.

 

[TruthDefender]

I based everything that I said on Scripture, so your accusation of it not being Scriptural has no foundation. If you think that I twisted Scripture, then by all means please make the case for it, but there is no point in you accusing me of something without giving any sort of justification for it. If you think that I quoted a verses out of context, then please make the case for it because again there is no point in you accusing me of things within giving justification. If you don't understand something that I said, then I would be happy to clarify it for you. I said nothing to deny that those verses are from God, or to deny that they mean exactly what He, or to deny that we should believe what He said, but rather I spoke in regard to how we should understand those verses and I raised some more problems with how you are interesting them. It doesn't work to interpret Paul as quoting from a passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage, especially when Paul considered that passage to be Scripture. It should not make sense to you to interpret a servant of God in a way that turns him against obeying what He has commanded.

From what I’ve read from your script, you are supporting the idea of us obeying the old Law/ Old Covenant. You do not believe in what God says, that we are cursed if we hang onto the Law. You said just the opposite.

 

[Soyeong]

From what I’ve read from your script, you are supporting the idea of us obeying the old Law/ Old Covenant. You do not believe in what God says, that we are cursed if we hang onto the Law. You said just the opposite.

I believe that all of the Bible is true, that no part of it should be interpreted as contradicting other parts, and that the New Covenant still involves following the Law of God (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27). Jesus and the Apostles quoted from the OT hundreds of times in order to support what they were saying, so it doesn't work to take the position that we should follow what they said but not what they considered to be an authoritative source. For example, Jesus quoted three times from Deuteronomy in order to defeat the temptations of Satan, which included saying that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

In Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him is if they speak against obeying His law, so it is either incorrect to interpret the authors of the NT as doing that or they were false prophets, but either way followers of Christ should follow his example of obedience to God's law. However, if someone interprets the authors of the NT as speaking against following Deuteronomy and Deuteronomy therefore as speak against following the authors of the NT and thinks that we should then follow the NT authors instead of God, then they are just making a convoluted mess out of the Bible.

In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the world of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! In Psalms 119:1, it says blessed are those who walk in the law of the Lord, and there are many other verses that repeatedly states that the way to be blessed is by obeying the Law of God, so if you interpret a verses as Paul not only contradicting what he said is the word of faith that we proclaim but also overturning the rest of the Bible, then that should indicate to you that maybe you might have misunderstood that verse.

 

[Nedsk]

The root of the problem is pride. Most people can't bear the thought that they have nothing to contribute to their salvation. So they look for scripture that they can use to justify themselves. Abraham, God's friend, wanted God to accept Ishmael. Peter, with the best of intentions, wanted to spare Jesus death on the cross.

"There is a way that seems right to a man.........." It's stated twice in Proverbs. Those who go by logic and reason alone, trusting in their own interpretations, end up in bondage, not the glorious liberty of the saints. Those who are led by the Spirit have the liberty that infuriates the proud and religious.

Most believers have this problem at first. We imagine that the Christian life is easy, as we have a rule book to follow. Those who genuinely desire to please God soon find out that the Christian life is impossible. Only one Person has lived it. His name is Jesus. If we know who He is in us, and who we are in Him, our dilemma evaporates. We are saved by grace every moment of every day. We quit trying because we realise that we are indeed new creations. God has done it all for us in Christ.

Imagine being taken off the streets by a billionaire, given a new home, a job, car, new clothing; everything you could want or need. So you settle in, shower and get clean, have some food and go to sleep. The next day, you get up and put on your filthy street clothes. What would that say to your benefactor? That's what it is like to insult God's grace by adding law to grace.

And there is the hitch. I didn't say law I said works just like Scripture. One more time, if faith alone was sufficient it wouldn't need completion.

Can I make a suggestion? Instead of writing lengthy replies that I only marginally skim try looking up what sufficient means so we could be more likely not have a worthwhile conversation. Sad part is I've dealt with you folks for so long I know the answer

 

[Nedsk]

The issue isn't whether faith produces works, Scripture is clear that genuine faith does (Rom 1:5, 16:26, Eph 2:10, Titus 3:8). The issue is what justifies.

Paul says justification is ""apart from works"" (Rom 3:28), ""to the one who does not work but believes"" (Rom 4:5) & ""not by works of righteousness which we have done"" (Titus 3:5). Works are the fruit of faith, not the foundation of justification.

Faith alone justifies; the faith that justifies is never alone. That's Paul & James in harmony, not contradiction.

There has to an conflict if James has to tell us works complete faith. If faith alone was sufficient it wouldn't need completion. Are people afraid to look up what sufficient means?

 

[Journey_man]

We embody what we believe to be true about God through our works, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James believes in God. In other words, the way to believe in God is by embodying His character traits. For example, our good works in obedience to the Law of God embody God’s goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by embodying God’s goodness we are also embodying the belief that God is good. Likewise, the way to believe that God is compassionate is by being compassionate (Luke 6:36), the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as he is holy (1 Peter 1:16). This is exactly the same as the way to believe in the Son, who is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God. This is also why the Bible frequently connects our faith in God with our obedience to Him, such as with Revelation 14:12 where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God’s commandments.

I don't hear the word "embody" used very often to describe what we believe to be true about God and I don't remember anyone remember anyone saying "the way to believe in God is by embodying His character traits".

I personally find obedience and doing good works quite difficult, I struggle to obey. Obedience to God comes at great personal cost, it has caused me to be cut off from many of my family members, friends and relatives. Obedience demands sacrifice, I find self discipline hard. I can't claim that I do good works, because I'm a "good guy".

The only reason I obey God and do good works, is because He is good and He is more than worthy to receive my worship and obedience.
Instead of using the word "embody", I would use the word "follow". We follow the Lord Jesus, because He is our leader. I wouldn't chose the path that I'm on now if it was up to me, my natural default preference is to walk on the Broadway, because it's the easy way and most of my friends are on it.

All I'm trying to convey here is that, I take no credit for any good work I have done or that I'm currently doing. All the credit goes to the Lord, because He is the One who began this work of transformation in me, and He is the One who will complete the work of salvation.
I would have fallen away hundreds of times, if the Holy Spirit wasn't leading me against my will. Being led by the Spirit doesn't feel natural or easy, but we know He does all things with our best interest in mind.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No it creates a dilemma for you. James says we are saved by works and not with alone. Paul rejected works of the law but encourages people to good works. It's rather plain and simple.

james says we are saved by faith . But then he just explains a bit more that faith isn’t just what we say , but it also includes our actions.


“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works:

shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. ( this is the point he’s making )



Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:18, 21-24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If Noah had said I believe you God ….. that wouldn’t have saved him . But he heard what zgod told him was coming and what to do then he actually believed him and acted as if he believed . His belief was in line with his actions that’s faith

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Faith-obedience and works are always a choice. The warnings are real and not empty.

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:7-9‬ ‭


that’s a really hard concept to accept when you were taught all along “ what you do has no relevance to the outcome “

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭

i don’t think some can actually hear what this is saying


“But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬


it seems simple and straight forward but it’s hard to get many to acknowledge tbat it’s true . I’m becoming conviced it’s because of that people are taught before they hear the truth in scripture. So the o terotetarions always just ignore plain and clear statements like Paul just made there to the church and then a few quotes from unrelated places are quoted and then …. Wahlah! The whole thing paul just taught the church becomes wrong in certain minds ot just doesn’t fit the pre imposed doctrine

 

[studier]

that’s a really hard concept to accept when you were taught all along “ what you do has no relevance to the outcome “

Highlighting a good statement. Completely agree.

In my own experience it was not easy to let go of some things I was taught when I saw the Text saying differently. We tend to build allegiances with others. Allegiance to Christ is always the only answer.

 

[Toknow]

I don't hear the word "embody" used very often to describe what we believe to be true about God and I don't remember anyone remember anyone saying "the way to believe in God is by embodying His character traits".

Just fell on this .....
Yes. I doubt we are able to have the character traits of Jesus.
Maybe if one is mormon he might believe this.

I personally find obedience and doing good works quite difficult, I struggle to obey. Obedience to God comes at great personal cost, it has caused me to be cut off from many of my family members, friends and relatives. Obedience demands sacrifice, I find self discipline hard. I can't claim that I do good works, because I'm a "good guy".

So what IS a good work?
Maybe if it's difficult you're doing more than Jesus might be requesting of you?

The only reason I obey God and do good works, is because He is good and He is more than worthy to receive my worship and obedience.

Amen to that!
Some on these forums don't even think obedience to God is all that important.
Seems they sure do give a lot of pushback when I state that God demands obedience from us.
Seems that they believe it's a choice...

Instead of using the word "embody", I would use the word "follow". We follow the Lord Jesus, because He is our leader. I wouldn't chose the path that I'm on now if it was up to me, my natural default preference is to walk on the Broadway, because it's the easy way and most of my friends are on it.

Agreed 100%
Alhtough I do believe that at some point the broad road will not seem to enticing to us who are on the narrow road.

All I'm trying to convey here is that, I take no credit for any good work I have done or that I'm currently doing. All the credit goes to the Lord, because He is the One who began this work of transformation in me, and He is the One who will complete the work of salvation.
I would have fallen away hundreds of times, if the Holy Spirit wasn't leading me against my will. Being led by the Spirit doesn't feel natural or easy, but we know He does all things with our best interest in mind.

You're not "falling away".....falling away causes one to lose their salvation...
what you're doing is sinning
and John taught us the remedy for this....
(and sinning is different than living in sin..just to be clear)


1 John 1:7-9
7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.