Faith or Law?

[Nedsk]

Faith-obedience and works are always a choice. The warnings are real and not empty.

Then it works are a choice we agree faith alone isn't sufficient for salvation.

 

[Cameron143]

According to John, Jesus clearly taught otherwise.

No He didn't. While He was telling them what they would do to obtain eternal life, He isn't concerned to teach in this passage the impetus for such.

I realize we disagree on when the activity of God begins and its extent during salvation, but this passage is only part of the equation. A better passage is Acts 2:37-38. But people act upon what they believe and do not act on what they do not believe. This is true in life, and is true in salvation also.

 

[FlyingDove]

I commented on the phrase you used.

Thank you for providing the link. Starting there (https://biblehub.com/greek/1432.htm) see that dōrean is derived from dōrea (one link back to https://biblehub.com/greek/1431.htm) - now read under Helps and NAS Exhaustive Concordance the derivation from didōmi (https://biblehub.com/greek/1325.htm)

ESV John 6:27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give (didōmi) to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."

The language of giving and gifts is extensive in the Text.

There is no merit of men mentioned in John6 - just commanded work and giving. It's easy to see in John6 who has all the merit and that God does command and require that men work to believe and that God gives what to believe that remains for eternal life.

The problem with these slogans is they do not hold across all Scripture - they may work with one section but conflict with another. IMO John and Paul do not conflict with one another, so we need a better slogan, or none at all and just let the Text speak.

Jesus defines the ""work"" in John 6:27–29 & He defines it as BELIEVING, not performing deeds to earn eternal life. The Son of Man ""GIVES"" eternal life (Vs27) & the only ""work"" God requires is FAITH (Vs29). A gift is received, not earned & Jesus Himself uses the language of GIVING-not wages-in this passage.

That's why Paul says salvation is ""not of works"" (Eph 2:9) & ""not by works of righteousness""” (Titus 3:5).

 

[Gideon300]

I'll try one more time, faith alone, by definition cannot be sufficient, if it needs completion through works. I'm not sure what happens to people when they come to believe? It almost seems that they stop thinking and just recite passages learned through rote memorization.

The root of the problem is pride. Most people can't bear the thought that they have nothing to contribute to their salvation. So they look for scripture that they can use to justify themselves. Abraham, God's friend, wanted God to accept Ishmael. Peter, with the best of intentions, wanted to spare Jesus death on the cross.

"There is a way that seems right to a man.........." It's stated twice in Proverbs. Those who go by logic and reason alone, trusting in their own interpretations, end up in bondage, not the glorious liberty of the saints. Those who are led by the Spirit have the liberty that infuriates the proud and religious.

Most believers have this problem at first. We imagine that the Christian life is easy, as we have a rule book to follow. Those who genuinely desire to please God soon find out that the Christian life is impossible. Only one Person has lived it. His name is Jesus. If we know who He is in us, and who we are in Him, our dilemma evaporates. We are saved by grace every moment of every day. We quit trying because we realise that we are indeed new creations. God has done it all for us in Christ.

Imagine being taken off the streets by a billionaire, given a new home, a job, car, new clothing; everything you could want or need. So you settle in, shower and get clean, have some food and go to sleep. The next day, you get up and put on your filthy street clothes. What would that say to your benefactor? That's what it is like to insult God's grace by adding law to grace.

 

[Gideon300]

We can do works for a variety of reasons such as in order to embody our faith, in order to embody our love, in order to look good in the eyes of others, in order to experience a gift, in order to earn a wage, in order to build a relationship, in order to repair the world, and so forth, so it is important to recognize that the Bible can speak against being required to choose to do works for incorrect reasons without speaking against being required to choose to do them for correct reasons.

For example, Paul denied in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God while also affirming in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of it will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of it other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works done to earn it also uphold the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31).

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to choose to do the will of the Father by being workers of lawfulness, but the reason why it requires us to be workers of lawfulness is not in order to be good enough to earn our way there as the result, rather Jesus saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawfulness to depart from him because he never knew them means that the goal of doing the will of the Father by being workers of lawfulness is to know him. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3).

The Bible does not state that the way to have eternal life is by earning it as the result of perfect obedience, but rather you are reading that into it. For example, Jesus notably did not add that only those who [perfectly] do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but rather you are reading that into it. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, so that is a requirement, but he did not add that we need to [perfectly] obey them. In Roman 3:21-22, it does not state that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes as the result of perfect obedience to the Law of God, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe.

The Law of God came with instructions for what to do when His children sinned, so it never required perfect obedience. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have no had perfect obedience, so if we needed to have perfect obedience, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we are not required to have perfect obedience. There would be no point in Jesus telling people who have already sinned that they need to have perfect obedience, but rather his message was one of repentance. There would also be no point in the Bible repeatedly stating that the way to have eternal life is by obeying the Law of God if that is an impossible way for anyone can have eternal life. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was not presented as an impossible way to have life, but as a possibility and as a choice that we can all make.


Obeying the Law of God has nothing to do with trying to be good enough for God.

The root of the problem is pride. Most people can't bear the thought that they have nothing to contribute to their salvation. So they look for scripture that they can use to justify themselves. Abraham, God's friend, wanted God to accept Ishmael. Peter, with the best of intentions, wanted to spare Jesus death on the cross.

"There is a way that seems right to a man.........." It's stated twice in Proverbs. Those who go by logic and reason alone, trusting in their own interpretations, end up in bondage, not the glorious liberty of the saints. Those who are led by the Spirit have the liberty that infuriates the proud and religious.

Most believers have this problem at first. We imagine that the Christian life is easy, as we have a rule book to follow. Those who genuinely desire to please God soon find out that the Christian life is impossible. Only one Person has lived it. His name is Jesus. If we know who He is in us, and who we are in Him, our dilemma evaporates. We are saved by grace every moment of every day. We quit trying because we realise that we are indeed new creations. God has done it all for us in Christ.

Imagine being taken off the streets by a billionaire, given a new home, a job, car, new clothing; everything you could want or need. So you settle in, shower and get clean, have some food and go to sleep. The next day, you get up and put on your filthy street clothes. What would that say to your benefactor? That's what it is like to insult God's grace by adding law to grace.

 

[FlyingDove]

I'll try one more time, faith alone, by definition cannot be sufficient, if it needs completion through works. I'm not sure what happens to people when they come to believe? It almost seems that they stop thinking and just recite passages learned through rote memorization.

The issue isn't whether faith produces works, Scripture is clear that genuine faith does (Rom 1:5, 16:26, Eph 2:10, Titus 3:8). The issue is what justifies.

Paul says justification is ""apart from works"" (Rom 3:28), ""to the one who does not work but believes"" (Rom 4:5) & ""not by works of righteousness which we have done"" (Titus 3:5). Works are the fruit of faith, not the foundation of justification.

Faith alone justifies; the faith that justifies is never alone. That's Paul & James in harmony, not contradiction.

 

[Toknow]

Jesus defines the ""work"" in John 6:27–29 & He defines it as BELIEVING, not performing deeds to earn eternal life. The Son of Man ""GIVES"" eternal life (Vs27) & the only ""work"" God requires is FAITH (Vs29). A gift is received, not earned & Jesus Himself uses the language of GIVING-not wages-in this passage.

That's why Paul says salvation is ""not of works"" (Eph 2:9) & ""not by works of righteousness""” (Titus 3:5).

Could you PLEASE explain what you mean by HE DEFINES IT AS BELIEVING NOT PERFORMING DEEDS TO EARN ETERNAL LIFE.


To earn eternal life we must be disciples of Jesus...
which means we are TO DO everything He commanded.

To clarify, please state if you're referring to:
JUSTIFICATION
or
SANCTIFICATION

I do believe it's important to know to which you're referring.

We are saved ONLY by faith... JUSTIFICATION

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


But what are we saved for?.....SANCTIFICATION


Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Quite a conflict unless we understand very well what Paul is saying:
1. We are not saved by works.
2. We are saved to do good works.

 

[Toknow]

The root of the problem is pride. Most people can't bear the thought that they have nothing to contribute to their salvation. So they look for scripture that they can use to justify themselves. Abraham, God's friend, wanted God to accept Ishmael. Peter, with the best of intentions, wanted to spare Jesus death on the cross.

"There is a way that seems right to a man.........." It's stated twice in Proverbs. Those who go by logic and reason alone, trusting in their own interpretations, end up in bondage, not the glorious liberty of the saints. Those who are led by the Spirit have the liberty that infuriates the proud and religious.

Most believers have this problem at first. We imagine that the Christian life is easy, as we have a rule book to follow. Those who genuinely desire to please God soon find out that the Christian life is impossible. Only one Person has lived it. His name is Jesus. If we know who He is in us, and who we are in Him, our dilemma evaporates. We are saved by grace every moment of every day. We quit trying because we realise that we are indeed new creations. God has done it all for us in Christ.

Imagine being taken off the streets by a billionaire, given a new home, a job, car, new clothing; everything you could want or need. So you settle in, shower and get clean, have some food and go to sleep. The next day, you get up and put on your filthy street clothes. What would that say to your benefactor? That's what it is like to insult God's grace by adding law to grace.

It's always in the words.
Been reading along Gideon...don't usually do this.

You said that it's an insult to God if we add law to grace.

What law?

Wasn't the Law abolished 2 thousand years ago?

 

[Gideon300]

It's always in the words.
Been reading along Gideon...don't usually do this.

You said that it's an insult to God if we add law to grace.

What law?

Wasn't the Law abolished 2 thousand years ago?

The Law still exists and it has a righteous purpose. I'm surprised that you do not know this.
Galatians 3:23-25
"Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.…"

1 Timothy 1:9-11
"We realize that law is not enacted for the righteous, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for killers of father or mother, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave traders and liars and perjurers, and for anyone else who is averse to sound teaching that agrees with the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.…"

 

[FlyingDove]

Could you PLEASE explain what you mean by HE DEFINES IT AS BELIEVING NOT PERFORMING DEEDS TO EARN ETERNAL LIFE.


To earn eternal life we must be disciples of Jesus...
which means we are TO DO everything He commanded.

To clarify, please state if you're referring to:
JUSTIFICATION
or
SANCTIFICATION

I do believe it's important to know to which you're referring.

We are saved ONLY by faith... JUSTIFICATION

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


But what are we saved for?.....SANCTIFICATION


Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Quite a conflict unless we understand very well what Paul is saying:
1. We are not saved by works.
2. We are saved to do good works.

Jesus defines the ""work"" for eternal life as BELIEVIG (Jn 6:29). Paul says justification is for the one who ""does not work"" (Rom 4:5).

Justification is God's judicial declaration He accepted your faith in Christ' sin atoning death & resurrection & counts that faith as righteousness.

Salvation is a broader umbrella, it includes the entire scope of Christ' saving work. Everything He does to rescue a sinner from sins penalty, power. Salvation includes justification & sanctification, the present & ongoing work Christ has set you apart, as your life is transforming & glorification, the future guaranteed completion of God’s work in which you will be saved in full resurrection & perfection.

The biblical order: justification by faith alone, sanctification as the life that flows from that faith & glorification as the final fulfillment of God's promise.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

While this war of words continues...

For those of you who made Jesus your Lord as well as your Savior, continue to obey God out of love for Him. It pleases Him and He won't send you to hell for doing what He commands.


🕊

 

[Dino246]

I'll try one more time, faith alone, by definition cannot be sufficient, if it needs completion through works. I'm not sure what happens to people when they come to believe? It almost seems that they stop thinking and just recite passages learned through rote memorization.

And Catholics learn man-made statements (the "catechism") through rote memorization. I'd rather learn God's word.

We all learn things by starting with basic principles. We learn arithmetic with basic rules and multiplication tables. Those tables form the foundation for understanding advanced maths.

Similarly, with living the Christian life, we start by learning basics: memorizing Scripture verses. As we grow, we put those basic principles into practice. There is absolutely no shame in starting with Scripture memorization.

As for "they stop thinking", sadly, many are not taught how to think anymore. They are merely taught what to think. Still, if they start with the truth of Scripture, their "how" is more likely to form properly.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

...it is important to recognize that the Bible can speak against being required to choose to do works for incorrect reasons without speaking against being required to choose to do them for correct reasons.

The meaning of the double-negative (highlighted) is more straightforward when it is replaced with a single positive. You are saying that "the Bible speaks in favor of us being required to do works and do them for the right reasons". Since this discussion is about salvation, I presume you mean that the Bible requires us to do works for the right reasons in order to be saved. I find this to be completely consistent with your other statements. And I will say plainly, without any equivocation, that I totally reject the idea that we must work for our salvation.

 

[Toknow]

The Law still exists and it has a righteous purpose. I'm surprised that you do not know this.
Galatians 3:23-25
"Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.…"

1 Timothy 1:9-11
"We realize that law is not enacted for the righteous, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for killers of father or mother, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave traders and liars and perjurers, and for anyone else who is averse to sound teaching that agrees with the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.…"

Jesus had something to say about the lawless.

Apparently, from the above, you seem to feel that the law was to show us something
but not to be obeyed.

I do hope you're speaking about the LAW OF CHRIST
since the LAW OF MOSES was abolished 2 thousand years ago.

It seem that you do not even respect the LAW OF CHRIST.

Here is what Jesus had to say about THE LAWLESS....
Those who do not obey His commands are the lawless....


Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’

23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’


Many cry out LORD LORD
but they do not do what He commands.
They are lawless.

 

[Toknow]

Jesus defines the ""work"" for eternal life as BELIEVIG (Jn 6:29). Paul says justification is for the one who ""does not work"" (Rom 4:5).

Justification is God's judicial declaration He accepted your faith in Christ' sin atoning death & resurrection & counts that faith as righteousness.

Salvation is a broader umbrella, it includes the entire scope of Christ' saving work. Everything He does to rescue a sinner from sins penalty, power. Salvation includes justification & sanctification, the present & ongoing work Christ has set you apart, as your life is transforming & glorification, the future guaranteed completion of God’s work in which you will be saved in full resurrection & perfection.

The biblical order: justification by faith alone, sanctification as the life that flows from that faith & glorification as the final fulfillment of God's promise.

OK
So to clarify:

Are BELIEVERS required to obey the commands of Jesus?
Are we required to do good works? or only if we DESIRE to, as some say.

Does Christ do ALL the work or are we supposed to cooperate in this work?

 

[FlyingDove]

OK
So to clarify:

Are BELIEVERS required to obey the commands of Jesus?
Are we required to do good works? or only if we DESIRE to, as some say.

Does Christ do ALL the work or are we supposed to cooperate in this work?

HOLY SPIRIT - A gift given thru FAITH: Acts 10:45, 11:17.

ETERNAL LIFE - A gift given thru FAITH: Rom 6:23, Jn 5:24

RIGHTEOUSNESS - A gift given thru FAITH: Rom 4:5 & 5:17-18

GRACE - Given freely & received thru FAITH: Rom 3:24, 4:16, 5:1-2, 15, ""11:6"" ""Eph 2:5 & 8""

Received by FAITH ALONE the following GIFTS: Christ's Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45, 11:17), Christ's a declaration of righteousness (Rom 4:5 & 5:17-18) & eternal life (Rom 6:23, Jn 5:24)

Eternal life isn't earned or achieved; it's received through the One who gives it.

Grace = God's unmerited/unearned/undeserved favor

Jn 3:16 God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
(NOTE: Believers in Christ's sin‑atoning death & resurrection have everlasting life - present tense.)

Jn 3:18 He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NOTE: Unbelievers stand condemned > present tense < because they reject the Son.))

Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(NOTE: HATH/HAVE = present tense. Eternal life is received by faith alone, no repentance lists, no rituals, no works.)

Faith alone is needed. Scripture never adds repentance lists, obedience requirements, baptism, tithing, works, or ""until you slip up"" conditions. Believe & trust in Christ's sin‑atoning death & resurrection & you have - present tense, right now, everlasting life.

Jn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life
(NOTE: Believers have eternal life right now.)

Christ: The Author & Finisher of Faith

Heb 12:2 Looking to Jesus the author & finisher of our faith;
(NOTE: He begins it & He completes it.)

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, """that we might be justified by the faith """OF""" Christ""", & not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
(NOTE: Justification = God judicially declaring us righteous because of Christ's obedience, not ours.)

2 Thes 3:3 The Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil
(NOTE: We stand by His faithfulness, not our performance.)

Ephesians 2: Grace Saves, Faith Receives, Works Follow

Eph 2:
8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God;

9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]
(NOTE: Vs 8 Grace is a compassionate GIFT from God (you are a sinner that deserves death - Rom 6:23) His Grace enables you to access Christ's sin atonement. Vs 9 No works are involved/allowed beyond faith placed in Christ's work. So its all about how great He is, not how great we think might think our works are)

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works
(NOTE: Works follow salvation - they never produce it.)

Rom 16:26 Now revealed & made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, ""so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience"" ""that comes from faith""
(NOTE: Faith produces obedience - not the other way around.)

Jude 24 To him that is able to keep you from falling & present you faultless before the presence of his glory with great joy
(NOTE: Jesus is our Advocate, - 1 Jn 2:1 & Heb 9:15 — He is also the One to whom all judgment has been given — Jn 5:22, 27. The One who defends you is the same One who judges you. Verdict for the believer: NOT GUILTY)

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.
(NOTE: That saving name is Jesus the Christ.)

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
(NOTE: Grace appeared in Christ Himself - grace has a name.)

GRACE HAS A NAME — JESUS THE CHRIST

 

[Toknow]

Jesus defines the ""work"" for eternal life as BELIEVIG (Jn 6:29). Paul says justification is for the one who ""does not work"" (Rom 4:5).

Justification is God's judicial declaration He accepted your faith in Christ' sin atoning death & resurrection & counts that faith as righteousness.

Salvation is a broader umbrella, it includes the entire scope of Christ' saving work. Everything He does to rescue a sinner from sins penalty, power. Salvation includes justification & sanctification, the present & ongoing work Christ has set you apart, as your life is transforming & glorification, the future guaranteed completion of God’s work in which you will be saved in full resurrection & perfection.

The biblical order: justification by faith alone, sanctification as the life that flows from that faith & glorification as the final fulfillment of God's promise.

Sounds good.

But some say some words but another could never be sure what they mean.

IF we are not on the road to sanctification....
is justification still valid?

What does BELIEVE mean?

You said the work for eternal life is BELIEVING.

Are we required to obey God?

There seems to be a lot of pushback on these boards when anyone states
that God is to be obeyed.

 

[Toknow]

HOLY SPIRIT - A gift given thru FAITH: Acts 10:45, 11:17.

ETERNAL LIFE - A gift given thru FAITH: Rom 6:23, Jn 5:24

RIGHTEOUSNESS - A gift given thru FAITH: Rom 4:5 & 5:17-18

GRACE - Given freely & received thru FAITH: Rom 3:24, 4:16, 5:1-2, 15, ""11:6"" ""Eph 2:5 & 8""

Received by FAITH ALONE the following GIFTS: Christ's Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45, 11:17), Christ's a declaration of righteousness (Rom 4:5 & 5:17-18) & eternal life (Rom 6:23, Jn 5:24)

Eternal life isn't earned or achieved; it's received through the One who gives it.

Grace = God's unmerited/unearned/undeserved favor

Jn 3:16 God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
(NOTE: Believers in Christ's sin‑atoning death & resurrection have everlasting life - present tense.)

Jn 3:18 He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NOTE: Unbelievers stand condemned > present tense < because they reject the Son.))

Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(NOTE: HATH/HAVE = present tense. Eternal life is received by faith alone, no repentance lists, no rituals, no works.)

Faith alone is needed. Scripture never adds repentance lists, obedience requirements, baptism, tithing, works, or ""until you slip up"" conditions. Believe & trust in Christ's sin‑atoning death & resurrection & you have - present tense, right now, everlasting life.

Jn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life
(NOTE: Believers have eternal life right now.)

Christ: The Author & Finisher of Faith

Heb 12:2 Looking to Jesus the author & finisher of our faith;
(NOTE: He begins it & He completes it.)

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, """that we might be justified by the faith """OF""" Christ""", & not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
(NOTE: Justification = God judicially declaring us righteous because of Christ's obedience, not ours.)

2 Thes 3:3 The Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil
(NOTE: We stand by His faithfulness, not our performance.)

Ephesians 2: Grace Saves, Faith Receives, Works Follow

Eph 2:
8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God;

9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]
(NOTE: Vs 8 Grace is a compassionate GIFT from God (you are a sinner that deserves death - Rom 6:23) His Grace enables you to access Christ's sin atonement. Vs 9 No works are involved/allowed beyond faith placed in Christ's work. So its all about how great He is, not how great we think might think our works are)

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works
(NOTE: Works follow salvation - they never produce it.)

Rom 16:26 Now revealed & made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, ""so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience"" ""that comes from faith""
(NOTE: Faith produces obedience - not the other way around.)

Jude 24 To him that is able to keep you from falling & present you faultless before the presence of his glory with great joy
(NOTE: Jesus is our Advocate, - 1 Jn 2:1 & Heb 9:15 — He is also the One to whom all judgment has been given — Jn 5:22, 27. The One who defends you is the same One who judges you. Verdict for the believer: NOT GUILTY)

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.
(NOTE: That saving name is Jesus the Christ.)

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
(NOTE: Grace appeared in Christ Himself - grace has a name.)

GRACE HAS A NAME — JESUS THE CHRIST

And there we have it.

According to flyingdove

JESUS will be doing everything for us.

We need do nothing.

Just sit back, relax.

Jesus will handle it all.




But that's not waht Jesus taught,,,Jesus taught that we are TO DO something to remain in the Kingdom:

Matthew 25:41-46
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;

43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’

44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’

45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Jesus taught that we are TO DO what He preached/taught.


And Jesus also taught that salvation could be lost.


Luke 8:13
13 Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; [c]they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.


They believe FOR A WHILE
and then fall away.


John 15:2
22 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;


Every brand IN JESUS (a saved person)
that does not bear fruit
God takes away.



Are there some verses that state that we are not required to obey God?
I've been asking.
No one has posted even one.

 

[Soyeong]

The root of the problem is pride. Most people can't bear the thought that they have nothing to contribute to their salvation. So they look for scripture that they can use to justify themselves. Abraham, God's friend, wanted God to accept Ishmael. Peter, with the best of intentions, wanted to spare Jesus death on the cross.

The reason why God gave His law was not so that we could have something to be prideful about, or in order to teach us how to contribute something towards out salvation, or to teach us how to justify ourselves, or in order to put us into bondage. Perhaps you should pay attention to the reasons that I've quoted from the Bible for why we should obey the Law of God rather than just making up reasons that sound good to you an assigning them to me.

"There is a way that seems right to a man.........." It's stated twice in Proverbs. Those who go by logic and reason alone, trusting in their own interpretations, end up in bondage, not the glorious liberty of the saints.

The way that seems right to man is relying on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes rather than trusting in God with all of our to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying His law in all of our ways and He will make our way straight (Proverbs 3:1-7).

Those who are led by the Spirit have the liberty that infuriates the proud and religious.

In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

Most believers have this problem at first. We imagine that the Christian life is easy, as we have a rule book to follow. Those who genuinely desire to please God soon find out that the Christian life is impossible. Only one Person has lived it. His name is Jesus.

In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that is impossible for us to do. Moreover, there are many examples in the Bible of people who did live in obedience to the Law of God, such as with those in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.

If we know who He is in us, and who we are in Him, our dilemma evaporates. We are saved by grace every moment of every day.

Jesus lived in obedience to the Law of God, so that is also the way that we get to live when he is living in us.

We quit trying because we realise that we are indeed new creations. God has done it all for us in Christ.

In Ephesians 2:8-10, our salvation involves being made to be new Christians in Christ to do good works and the Law of God is His instructions for how to do good works. It notably does not say that God removed our salvation by doing the good works for us.

Imagine being taken off the streets by a billionaire, given a new home, a job, car, new clothing; everything you could want or need. So you settle in, shower and get clean, have some food and go to sleep. The next day, you get up and put on your filthy street clothes. What would that say to your benefactor? That's what it is like to insult God's grace by adding law to grace.

The righteous deeds of the saints are not filthy street clothes, but rather they are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:18). In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. It is not adding law to grace for God to be gracious to us by teaching us to obey it, but rather you are insulting God's grace by trying to remove law from it.

 

[Soyeong]

The meaning of the double-negative (highlighted) is more straightforward when it is replaced with a single positive. You are saying that "the Bible speaks in favor of us being required to do works and do them for the right reasons". Since this discussion is about salvation, I presume you mean that the Bible requires us to do works for the right reasons in order to be saved. I find this to be completely consistent with your other statements. And I will say plainly, without any equivocation, that I totally reject the idea that we must work for our salvation.

There is a difference between these two positions:

1.) Our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of God.

2.) Our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of God in order to earn it as the result.

The Bible affirms 1 white denying 2 and the problem is people commonly use verses that deny 2 in order to argue against 1. For example, in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawless to depart from him because he never knew them, so there is a reason why our entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to choose to be workers of lawfulness, but the reason is not in order to work for it. So I also totally reject the idea that we must work for our salvation because that was never the for reason why our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of God.