Faith or Law?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
This message is self-contradictory. Your first statement says that obedience to the law is not an entrance into heaven even if it is perfect obedience (which is consistent with your rejection of the Scriptures which tell us that the law demands perfect compliance and the Scriptures that tell us that those who perfectly obey the law have life because of their obedience, though they warn that no one will have gained eternal life that way which strangely you agree with in the first sentence). But in the second sentence, you contradict the first sentence when you claim that the entrance into heaven is through partially obeying the commandments because partial obedience to the law is how we come to know Jesus and knowing Jesus gets us into heaven (never mind that Jesus did not say that knowing Him is how people avoid judgement, but He said that Him knowing them was what is important). Please clarify whether or not you believe partial obedience to the law is required to get eternal life.
We can do works for a variety of reasons such as in order to embody our faith, in order to embody our love, in order to look good in the eyes of others, in order to experience a gift, in order to earn a wage, in order to build a relationship, in order to repair the world, and so forth, so it is important to recognize that the Bible can speak against being required to choose to do works for incorrect reasons without speaking against being required to choose to do them for correct reasons.

For example, Paul denied in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God while also affirming in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of it will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of it other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works done to earn it also uphold the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31).

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to choose to do the will of the Father by being workers of lawfulness, but the reason why it requires us to be workers of lawfulness is not in order to be good enough to earn our way there as the result, rather Jesus saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawfulness to depart from him because he never knew them means that the goal of doing the will of the Father by being workers of lawfulness is to know him. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3).

The Bible does not state that the way to have eternal life is by earning it as the result of perfect obedience, but rather you are reading that into it. For example, Jesus notably did not add that only those who [perfectly] do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but rather you are reading that into it. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, so that is a requirement, but he did not add that we need to [perfectly] obey them. In Roman 3:21-22, it does not state that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes as the result of perfect obedience to the Law of God, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe.

The Law of God came with instructions for what to do when His children sinned, so it never required perfect obedience. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have no had perfect obedience, so if we needed to have perfect obedience, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we are not required to have perfect obedience. There would be no point in Jesus telling people who have already sinned that they need to have perfect obedience, but rather his message was one of repentance. There would also be no point in the Bible repeatedly stating that the way to have eternal life is by obeying the Law of God if that is an impossible way for anyone can have eternal life. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was not presented as an impossible way to have life, but as a possibility and as a choice that we can all make.

This reminds me of something someone told me on onother forum. He said something on the order of, "You don't have to be perfect, you just have to be good enough". Well, good enough won't cut it. That's why we're totally (not partially) dependent on Christ's sacrifice for our sins being sufficient to avoid His wrath.
Obeying the Law of God has nothing to do with trying to be good enough for God.
 
Goodness gracious.

First, salvation is salvation period.

Second I have no dilemma. Paul is adamant that works of the law won't save us. But he has a different tact on good works. Romans 2:7 and 2 Corinthians 5:10.

And this nonsense about faith by itself, the only way for you to believe that is to ignore where James says faith is brought to completion by works. If faith by itself as you claim is sufficient it wouldn't need completion with works. In order to fully understand what James is saying you really need to know what sufficient means. That which is sufficient by itself does not need completion.

Faith alone, my friend.

Rom 3 says we are ""justified as a GIFT by His grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus"" (Rom 3:24). A gift is given, not worked for. Paul continues: Christ is the propitiation by His blood, ""received through FAITH"" (Rom 3:25). That's ""reconciliation through FAITH"" > not through works. Then Paul states the conclusion plainly: God is ""the One who justifies those who have FAITH in Jesus"" (Rom 3:26) > No works added. That's why boasting is excluded > not by works, but by the law of FAITH (Rom 3:27).

Citing one verse (Rom 3:28) & ignoring the entire argument leading up to it isn't eisegeses - it's cherry picking. Paul’s flow is unmistakable: justification is a gift, received through faith, based on Christ’s blood & not by works of any kind. He repeats this through his letters:
""Being justified by FAITH, we have peace with God"" (Rom 5:1).

""To the one who does not work but BELIEVES, his FAITH is counted for righteousness"" (Rom 4:5).

""By grace you are saved through FAITH > not of works"" (Eph 2:8–9).

""Not by works of righteousness which we have done"" (Titus 3:5).

""Who saved us… not according to our works"" (2 Tim 1:9). Jude says it is Christ who keeps us, not our works (Jude 24).

Man is saved through FAITH & not by works (Rom 4:5–6; Eph 2:8–9; Titus 3:5; 2 Tim 1:9). Christ saves us through FAITH based on the merits of His finished work alone, not the merits of our works (Rom 3:24–27).

It is FAITH ALONE in CHRIST ALONE that justifies (Rom 4:5–6; 5:1; 5:9).

""Yet the FAITH that justifies"" - ""does not remain alone"" - ""it produces fruit if it is genuine FAITH (James 2:14–26). Perfect harmony!

Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake
(NOTE: Obedience flows from Faith)

Rom 16:26 Now revealed & made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, "so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience," "that comes from faith"
(NOTE: A Gentiles obedience is a direct result of their Faith)
 
Correct. Dead meaning non salvific. But works have to be a choice. If those with faith have no choice but to do good works then there would be no need for judgement and there will be based on our actions or I actions. There would be no need for Paul warns, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. He wouldn't have had to tell.people not to neglect to do good works. Or would have had to consider how to spur on another to love and good works.

Faith-obedience and works are always a choice. The warnings are real and not empty.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pilgrimshope
A gift is given, not worked for.

Always love these pithy slogans that go against Scripture, especially when Jesus is speaking:

ESV John 6:27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."

IOW, work for the gift Jesus gives. A command from the Christ/King.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2ndTimeIsTheCharm
Always love these pithy slogans that go against Scripture, especially when Jesus is speaking:

ESV John 6:27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."

IOW, work for the gift Jesus gives. A command from the Christ/King.
What are the works for the food that endures?
 
What are the works for the food that endures?

In context I'd attach at minimum to the active voice actions 'hear/listen and 'learn' in John6:45 and back to the active voice action 'believe' - 'the work God requires' - in John6:29. Adding from context, I'd say all the work/effort they're putting forth active voice action 'seeking' that Jesus challenges them about John6:26.
 
In context I'd attach at minimum to the active voice actions 'hear/listen and 'learn' in John6:45 and back to the active voice action 'believe' - 'the work God requires' - in John6:29. Adding from context, I'd say all the work/effort they're putting forth active voice action 'seeking' that Jesus challenges them about John6:26.
All that as opposed to what?
 
In the context of the discussion you entered into, all that (seeking, hearing, learning, believing/work) as opposed to the pithy slogan 'we don't work for a gift.'
I do appreciate your replies, but what is Jesus juxtaposing belief with?
 
Outside the context of the slogan I was commenting about, the contextual juxtaposition is clearly stated by Jesus in John6:27, and inferred in John6:29, no?
The audience is Jewish. Most believed, not unlike the rich young ruler, that eternal life was achieved through keeping the law. Jesus is taking the opportunity to teach. He is attempting to open them up inside their own assumptions. They obviously don't understand, hence their question in verse 28. So He tells them very directly in verse 29.

I would agree that the passage makes a poor case for salvation as a gift, but that was never the focus of the passage.
 
The audience is Jewish. Most believed, not unlike the rich young ruler, that eternal life was achieved through keeping the law. Jesus is taking the opportunity to teach. He is attempting to open them up inside their own assumptions. They obviously don't understand, hence their question in verse 28. So He tells them very directly in verse 29.

I would agree that the passage makes a poor case for salvation as a gift, but that was never the focus of the passage.

As I've shown from the Text, both the gift from God and the work He requires from yet unbelieving men are clearly stated.
 
As I've shown from the Text, both the gift from God and the work He requires from yet unbelieving men are clearly stated.
Unbelieving men don't do anything. They don't believe. It isn't until they believe that they will respond.

Do you believe eternal life and salvation are the same thing?
 
Always love these pithy slogans that go against Scripture, especially when Jesus is speaking:

ESV John 6:27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."

IOW, work for the gift Jesus gives. A command from the Christ/King.

1st the reply was citing Rom 3 verses importing Jn 6 isn't applicable

2ndly: Studier, since you objected to the line ""a gift is given, not worked for,"" here's the actual lexical data for the word Paul uses in Romans 3:24 — δωρεάν (dōrean):

https://biblehub.com/greek/1432.htm

BibleHub / Strong’s / Thayer all give the same definition:
freely - without cost - as a gift - gratuitously - without a cause & note the origin: Accusative case of G1431 (δωρεά — gift) used as an adverb.

Paul literally says justification is done in a gift‑like manner - without payment, without merit, without cause in the recipient.

If you want to argue that justification involves human works, you'll need to explain how a word that lexically means ""freely, without cost, as a gift"" somehow means ""earned by effort - WORKED FOR"".
 
1st the reply was citing Rom 3 verses importing Jn 6 isn't applicable

2ndly: Studier, since you objected to the line ""a gift is given, not worked for,"" here's the actual lexical data for the word Paul uses in Romans 3:24 — δωρεάν (dōrean):

https://biblehub.com/greek/1432.htm

BibleHub / Strong’s / Thayer all give the same definition:
freely - without cost - as a gift - gratuitously - without a cause & note the origin: Accusative case of G1431 (δωρεά — gift) used as an adverb.

Paul literally says justification is done in a gift‑like manner - without payment, without merit, without cause in the recipient.

If you want to argue that justification involves human works, you'll need to explain how a word that lexically means ""freely, without cost, as a gift"" somehow means ""earned by effort - WORKED FOR"".

I commented on the phrase you used.

Thank you for providing the link. Starting there (https://biblehub.com/greek/1432.htm) see that dōrean is derived from dōrea (one link back to https://biblehub.com/greek/1431.htm) - now read under Helps and NAS Exhaustive Concordance the derivation from didōmi (https://biblehub.com/greek/1325.htm)

ESV John 6:27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give (didōmi) to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."

The language of giving and gifts is extensive in the Text.

There is no merit of men mentioned in John6 - just commanded work and giving. It's easy to see in John6 who has all the merit and that God does command and require that men work to believe and that God gives what to believe that remains for eternal life.

The problem with these slogans is they do not hold across all Scripture - they may work with one section but conflict with another. IMO John and Paul do not conflict with one another, so we need a better slogan, or none at all and just let the Text speak.
 
Faith alone, my friend.

Rom 3 says we are ""justified as a GIFT by His grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus"" (Rom 3:24). A gift is given, not worked for. Paul continues: Christ is the propitiation by His blood, ""received through FAITH"" (Rom 3:25). That's ""reconciliation through FAITH"" > not through works. Then Paul states the conclusion plainly: God is ""the One who justifies those who have FAITH in Jesus"" (Rom 3:26) > No works added. That's why boasting is excluded > not by works, but by the law of FAITH (Rom 3:27).

Citing one verse (Rom 3:28) & ignoring the entire argument leading up to it isn't eisegeses - it's cherry picking. Paul’s flow is unmistakable: justification is a gift, received through faith, based on Christ’s blood & not by works of any kind. He repeats this through his letters:
""Being justified by FAITH, we have peace with God"" (Rom 5:1).

""To the one who does not work but BELIEVES, his FAITH is counted for righteousness"" (Rom 4:5).

""By grace you are saved through FAITH > not of works"" (Eph 2:8–9).

""Not by works of righteousness which we have done"" (Titus 3:5).

""Who saved us… not according to our works"" (2 Tim 1:9). Jude says it is Christ who keeps us, not our works (Jude 24).

Man is saved through FAITH & not by works (Rom 4:5–6; Eph 2:8–9; Titus 3:5; 2 Tim 1:9). Christ saves us through FAITH based on the merits of His finished work alone, not the merits of our works (Rom 3:24–27).

It is FAITH ALONE in CHRIST ALONE that justifies (Rom 4:5–6; 5:1; 5:9).

""Yet the FAITH that justifies"" - ""does not remain alone"" - ""it produces fruit if it is genuine FAITH (James 2:14–26). Perfect harmony!I'll try

Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake
(NOTE: Obedience flows from Faith)

Rom 16:26 Now revealed & made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, "so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience," "that comes from faith"
(NOTE: A Gentiles obedience is a direct result of their Faith)

I'll try one more time, faith alone, by definition cannot be sufficient, if it needs completion through works. I'm not sure what happens to people when they come to believe? It almost seems that they stop thinking and just recite passages learned through rote memorization.