The Tribulation: Part I - Refinement, Not Removal

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So the only way Christians can mature is through the great tribulation? Every real believer has tribulation in their lives. It's the doorway to the kingdom of God. You have laid out your argument very well, but you have come to the wrong conclusion. If normal tribulation is effective, why would God subject believers to the seven worst years in human history?

The true church is the repository of the Holy Spirit. The lawless one is restrained for now. When the church is raptured, the Holy Spirit will no longer be here in the same way that He is in the Church. There will be no intercession for the lost, no warring against the forces of darkness and so Satan will have free reign.

There will be many who are Christians in name only. They will have an opportunity to choose to get real with God. The two witnesses will preach with power all over the earth. Many will be saved in that time. They will not escape the great tribulation. Many will perish. So yes, they will be removed from the world.

The Great Tribulation is primarily judgement on Israel. The third temple, which is NOT the temple in Ezekiel's vision, will be rebuilt. The Antichrist will reveal his true nature as he demands to be worshiped as God. The remnant of the Jews will receive Lord Jesus as their Messiah, thus fulfilling the OT prophecies concerning the last days and Israel.
there is a lot of speculations in what you wrote that is not based on scripture but i will answer what related to the O.P. Christians do not need a future “great tribulation” to grow, every believer faces trials now, and those are enough for spiritual maturity (John 16:33). The idea that the great tribulation is only for Israel, that a third temple must be rebuilt, or that the Antichrist will appear in a specific way, is also not taught in Scripture. While a faithful remnant of Israel will recognize Jesus, tribulation affects all nations (Matthew 24:9–22).
 
-------------------'Post your scripture please
Faith Without Works Is Dead
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matt24:21-29

The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up. Rev8:7

The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night. verse12

Man now has the means sadly to bring all of the above to fruition
 
Part II: Refined by Trials: Lessons from Scripture on Faith and Endurance
Abstract
This study explores how God uses tribulation to refine faith. Looking at the stories of Job, Israel in the wilderness, the Babylonian exile, Daniel and his companions, and Elijah, we see that trials are not punishment alone but opportunities for endurance, obedience, humility, and trust. Scripture shows that the faithful are transformed within the fire, not merely delivered from it. The Apostle Paul also affirms that trials produce perseverance and character: “And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope” (Romans 5:3–4).

Introduction
Tribulation in Scripture is often a divine test meant to strengthen rather than destroy. Old Testament narratives give us vivid examples of human endurance under trial. From Job’s suffering to Daniel’s faith under pressure, these stories teach that God is present in every trial and that faithful endurance reveals His character within us.

Job: Integrity and Trust Amid Suffering
Job is a model of steadfast faith. He faces loss, sickness, and confusion, yet refuses to curse God. His words reflect his unwavering integrity: “Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me” (Job 27:5).
Job’s story shows that true faith is relational, not transactional. He learns to trust God not for blessing but for God Himself. The culmination of his endurance is spiritual insight: “Now my eye sees You” (Job 42:5).

Israel in the Wilderness: Dependence and Obedience
The forty years in the wilderness tested an entire nation. God provided manna daily to teach dependence and trust: “He humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna… that He might make you know that man does not live by bread alone” (Deuteronomy 8:3).
Faith in the wilderness was active trust rather than accumulation of security. Those who failed to trust perished, while the faithful entered rest. The wilderness demonstrates that tribulation is a space where dependence on God shapes character.

The Exile: Repentance and Renewal
The Babylonian exile shows how collective suffering can lead to repentance and spiritual renewal. Jeremiah writes: “I will refine them and test them, for what else can I do because of my people?” (Jeremiah 9:7).
Exile broke complacency and self-reliance, awakening Israel to seek God. Return from exile was not just a return to land but a return to covenant faithfulness and worship. Tribulation can purify communities as well as individuals.

Daniel and His Companions: Loyalty and Courage
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the fiery furnace (Daniel 3) refused to worship idols, saying: “Our God whom we serve is able to deliver us… but even if He does not, we will not serve your gods” (v. 17–18).
Their courage shows that faithfulness is not about avoiding danger but remaining loyal in it. Daniel later demonstrates similar integrity in the lions’ den (Daniel 6). Trials refine courage, loyalty, and prayerful steadfastness.

Elijah in the Wilderness: Humility and Listening
After dramatic victories, Elijah faces despair in the wilderness (1 Kings 19). God teaches him through a still small voice rather than fire or wind, showing that tribulation often refines internal qualities: humility, attentiveness, and quiet perseverance.
Faithful endurance involves listening for God’s guidance, even when outward circumstances are difficult.

Qualities Formed Through Tribulation
Across these narratives, we see key virtues formed by trials:
  • Integrity (Job): Faith that remains true even without blessing.
  • Dependence (Israel in the Wilderness): Daily trust in God over human control.
  • Repentance (Exiles): Suffering awakens spiritual renewal.
  • Loyalty and Courage (Daniel and Companions): Obedience even when deliverance is uncertain.
  • Humility and Listening (Elijah): Recognizing weakness as space for God’s strength.
These are not just moral virtues but spiritual qualities that endure and grow under God’s testing.

Conclusion
Scripture shows that tribulation is a refining fire. Trials transform faith, producing endurance, character, and hope (Romans 5:3–4). Believers are not removed from the fire; they are shaped within it. To endure tribulation requires integrity, humility, repentance, loyalty, and trust. In these virtues, trials become a forge, molding hearts to reflect God’s character and bear the light of His kingdom.
“When He has tested me, I shall come forth as gold” — Job 23:10
 
Part II: Refined by Trials: Lessons from Scripture on Faith and Endurance
Abstract
This study explores how God uses tribulation to refine faith. Looking at the stories of Job, Israel in the wilderness, the Babylonian exile, Daniel and his companions, and Elijah, we see that trials are not punishment alone but opportunities for endurance, obedience, humility, and trust. Scripture shows that the faithful are transformed within the fire, not merely delivered from it. The Apostle Paul also affirms that trials produce perseverance and character: “And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope” (Romans 5:3–4).

Introduction
Tribulation in Scripture is often a divine test meant to strengthen rather than destroy. Old Testament narratives give us vivid examples of human endurance under trial. From Job’s suffering to Daniel’s faith under pressure, these stories teach that God is present in every trial and that faithful endurance reveals His character within us.

Job: Integrity and Trust Amid Suffering
Job is a model of steadfast faith. He faces loss, sickness, and confusion, yet refuses to curse God. His words reflect his unwavering integrity: “Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me” (Job 27:5).
Job’s story shows that true faith is relational, not transactional. He learns to trust God not for blessing but for God Himself. The culmination of his endurance is spiritual insight: “Now my eye sees You” (Job 42:5).

Israel in the Wilderness: Dependence and Obedience
The forty years in the wilderness tested an entire nation. God provided manna daily to teach dependence and trust: “He humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna… that He might make you know that man does not live by bread alone” (Deuteronomy 8:3).
Faith in the wilderness was active trust rather than accumulation of security. Those who failed to trust perished, while the faithful entered rest. The wilderness demonstrates that tribulation is a space where dependence on God shapes character.

The Exile: Repentance and Renewal
The Babylonian exile shows how collective suffering can lead to repentance and spiritual renewal. Jeremiah writes: “I will refine them and test them, for what else can I do because of my people?” (Jeremiah 9:7).
Exile broke complacency and self-reliance, awakening Israel to seek God. Return from exile was not just a return to land but a return to covenant faithfulness and worship. Tribulation can purify communities as well as individuals.

Daniel and His Companions: Loyalty and Courage
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the fiery furnace (Daniel 3) refused to worship idols, saying: “Our God whom we serve is able to deliver us… but even if He does not, we will not serve your gods” (v. 17–18).
Their courage shows that faithfulness is not about avoiding danger but remaining loyal in it. Daniel later demonstrates similar integrity in the lions’ den (Daniel 6). Trials refine courage, loyalty, and prayerful steadfastness.

Elijah in the Wilderness: Humility and Listening
After dramatic victories, Elijah faces despair in the wilderness (1 Kings 19). God teaches him through a still small voice rather than fire or wind, showing that tribulation often refines internal qualities: humility, attentiveness, and quiet perseverance.
Faithful endurance involves listening for God’s guidance, even when outward circumstances are difficult.

Qualities Formed Through Tribulation
Across these narratives, we see key virtues formed by trials:
  • Integrity (Job): Faith that remains true even without blessing.
  • Dependence (Israel in the Wilderness): Daily trust in God over human control.
  • Repentance (Exiles): Suffering awakens spiritual renewal.
  • Loyalty and Courage (Daniel and Companions): Obedience even when deliverance is uncertain.
  • Humility and Listening (Elijah): Recognizing weakness as space for God’s strength.
These are not just moral virtues but spiritual qualities that endure and grow under God’s testing.

Conclusion
Scripture shows that tribulation is a refining fire. Trials transform faith, producing endurance, character, and hope (Romans 5:3–4). Believers are not removed from the fire; they are shaped within it. To endure tribulation requires integrity, humility, repentance, loyalty, and trust. In these virtues, trials become a forge, molding hearts to reflect God’s character and bear the light of His kingdom.
“When He has tested me, I shall come forth as gold” — Job 23:10
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I doubt you will ever bring new people to Christ for you have a death wish message when you tell them they must enter the Tribulation'

It is this reason that the Lord is bringing back the two witnesses and sending out the 144,000. In your eyes then the billions of Christians are not worthy enough.

My prayer your eyes may be opened
 
Feel free. I'm not hanging around for it myself. If that's what it takes for you to get spiritual, that's OK - for you.

Let be done to you according to your faith.

Why should this generation of Christians be forced to endure worse tribulation than any other? The answer is simple. We won't. Ask the believers in North Korea what persecution is like. Then tell me you are expecting much worse. Death is the easy part.


You don't have that choice to be raptured before the GT. None of us do. Also Jesus Himself said the GT will be worse than any other time. You don't believe Him that you will go through it. And you know the consequences for not believing Jesus. You'll soon find out in several years,

I don't understand why you all would allow yourselves to be deceived. Many of you won't make it because it is only endurance in Christ you will not fall away.

I honestly grieve for you all. Just wow.


🕊
 
The Tribulation: Part I: Refinement, Not Removal
Abstract
This study explores the theological purpose of tribulation as presented in the Bible—specifically, the prophetic writings, the teachings of Jesus, the Book of Revelation, and selected passages from Paul. The central argument advanced here is that tribulation serves not as divine abandonment or escape, but as a refining process through which faith, character, and covenant fidelity are purified and revealed. Across Scripture, tribulation emerges as an instrument of transformation rather than removal.

1. Introduction
The concept of the “Great Tribulation” has long been a subject of eschatological debate. Many interpretations emphasize deliverance from suffering, particularly through the notion of a pre-tribulational rapture. Yet, when the Hebrew prophets, the teachings of Jesus, the Revelation of John, and Paul are read together carefully, a consistent pattern emerges.
In these sources, tribulation is consistently depicted as a necessary refinement of the faithful rather than their escape from adversity. The people of God are not portrayed as removed from trial, but as purified through it. This understanding aligns with a broader biblical theology in which suffering functions as a divine crucible for authenticity and faithfulness.

2. Refinement in the Prophetic Tradition
2.1 Zechariah: The Remnant Through Fire

Zechariah 13:9 declares, “I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested.”
Here, tribulation is represented not as punitive destruction but as a process of purification. The “third part,” symbolizing the faithful remnant, endures divine testing that burns away impurity while preserving the essence of covenant loyalty.
In Hebrew prophetic thought, fire is primarily transformative rather than annihilative. It is the means by which God restores holiness among His people.
2.2 Daniel: Purification Before Deliverance
In Daniel 12:1–10, a “time of trouble” precedes final deliverance. The righteous are described as those who are purified, made white, and refined. This imagery depicts tribulation as an eschatological furnace in which moral integrity and faith are distinguished from rebellion and corruption.
The sequence is instructive: refinement precedes deliverance, implying that salvation itself arises from faithfulness under pressure, not immunity from it.

3. Jesus’ Teaching: Endurance as Faithfulness
In the Synoptic Gospels, particularly the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24), Jesus speaks plainly about suffering and persecution that will befall His followers. He does not promise their removal from tribulation but insists upon their endurance within it:
“Then they will hand you over to be persecuted… but the one who endures to the end will be saved” (Matthew 24:9–13).
Endurance signifies steadfast perseverance. Salvation, therefore, is not the avoidance of tribulation but the demonstration of fidelity in its midst.
Similarly, in John 16:33, Jesus assures His disciples, “In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” His victory does not eliminate the experience of suffering but grants meaning and hope within it.
The agricultural metaphor of pruning in John 15:2 reinforces this truth: even fruitful branches are cut back so that they might yield more. Divine pruning parallels the refining fire—both serve to deepen fruitfulness and spiritual maturity.

4. Paul: Tribulation as Producing Endurance
When Paul speaks directly about tribulation, his language aligns with this pattern of refinement rather than removal.
In Romans 5:3–4, he writes:
“And not only so, but we also rejoice in our tribulations: knowing that tribulation worketh stedfastness; and stedfastness, approvedness; and approvedness, hope.”
Here tribulation is not presented as something believers escape, but as something that produces steadfastness and proven character. The movement is from suffering to endurance to tested faith. This is refinement language.
Likewise, in 2 Thessalonians 1:4–5, Paul commends believers:
“So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which ye endure; which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God; to the end that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer.”
Their endurance under persecution is described as evidence of God’s righteous judgment and as preparation for the kingdom. Suffering is not bypassed; it is endured. Worthiness is demonstrated through faithfulness in affliction.
Thus, in these passages, Paul supports the same theological trajectory seen in the prophets and in Jesus.

5. Revelation: Purity Through Perseverance
The Book of Revelation continues and completes this pattern. Believers are not depicted as absent during the world’s trials but as sealed and sustained through them. The vision of the multitude in Revelation 7:14 identifies them as those who “have come out of the great tribulation,” having “washed their robes… in the blood of the Lamb.”
Their purity is the result of endurance and faith under suffering. The saints are refined by faithfulness amid persecution, not by exemption from it. Likewise, in Revelation 3:18, Christ counsels the church to acquire “gold refined by fire,” emphasizing the necessity of distinguishes the genuine from the false, the steadfast from the superficial. The refining process culminates not in despair but in redemption — the emergence of a people made radiant through endurance.
Hence, the theology of tribulation reveals this central biblical truth:
God’s purpose in tribulation is not escape, but refinement; not destruction, but purification; not abandonment, but preparation for glory.

Blessings.
QUOTE
""5. Revelation: Purity Through Perseverance
The Book of Revelation continues and completes this pattern. Believers are not depicted as absent during the world’s trials but as sealed and sustained through them. The vision of the multitude in Revelation 7:14 identifies them as those who “have come out of the great tribulation,” having “washed their robes… in the blood of the Lamb.”
Their purity is the result of endurance and faith under suffering. The saints are refined by faithfulness amid persecution, not by exemption from it. Likewise, in Revelation 3:18, Christ counsels the church to acquire “gold refined by fire,” emphasizing the necessity of purification before participation in divine glory.
Thus, Revelation’s theology of tribulation mirrors the prophets, Jesus, and Paul: God’s people are preserved through testing and perfected by it""

Several things to consider.

The dynamic you ( or wherever you copied the article from) is actually not having to do with the rapture.
If you center on the rapture,the gathering of the bride, you will see a whole new picture.

Postribber teachers avoid the rapture verses, or the dynamic of the purpose of the trib.( they actually CENTER on the tribulation)
which is centering and starting from a bad place

For example, the innumerable numbers in heaven during the tribulation have been beheaded by the Antichrist.

They werre left behind, and carnal believers.
Their dirty robes had to be washed.

The Bible says that the the anti Christ is given power to overcome the saints. The Bible says those beheaded saints over came by the blood of lamb and the word of their testimony and they love not their lives unto death, so all those that are left behind are beheaded.
He kills every Single 0ne of them.
The Bible also says that all take the mark. Every man woman and child not written in the last book of life takes the mark of the Beast.
The Bible also says that those that refuse the mark die, so all those that missed the rapture, and enter the great tribulation are killed right away. They either refuse the mark or take the mark that's their choice.
That alone excludes any hope of "going thriugh" the trib.
 
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I doubt you will ever bring new people to Christ for you have a death wish message when you tell them they must enter the Tribulation'

It is this reason that the Lord is bringing back the two witnesses and sending out the 144,000. In your eyes then the billions of Christians are not worthy enough.

My prayer your eyes may be opened


Read the book of Jeremiah. He didn't have a single convert, but God considered him successful because he did EXACTLY what God commanded Him to do: to declare God’s people to repent and turn back to God. None of them did, so God punished them. Meanwhile, Jeremiah himself was persecuted by this rebellious people but in the end he went home to be with the Lord. None of the rebellious did.


🕊
 
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************THE OP***********
QUOTE
"". Jesus’ Teaching: Endurance as Faithfulness
In the Synoptic Gospels, particularly the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24), Jesus speaks plainly about suffering and persecution that will befall His followers. He does not promise their removal from tribulation but insists upon their endurance within it:
“Then they will hand you over to be persecuted… but the one who endures to the end will be saved” (Matthew 24:9–13).
Endurance signifies steadfast perseverance. Salvation, therefore, is not the avoidance of tribulation but the demonstration of fidelity in its midst.
Similarly, in John 16:33, Jesus assures His disciples, “In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” His victory does not eliminate the experience of suffering but grants meaning and hope within it.
The agricultural metaphor of pruning in John 15:2 reinforces this truth: even fruitful branches are cut back so that they might yield more. Divine pruning parallels the refining fire—both serve to deepen fruitfulness and spiritual maturity.""

Jesus teaching escape:

In the 7 letters to the seventh churches. Jesus said:
" because you have kept the word of my testimony. I will also keep you from the hour of trial about to come upon the whole earth."

Jesus said:
" But pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the earth in stand before the son of man."

Jesus uses the escape of Lot and his family

Jesus uses the escape of Noah into the ark preflood.

Jesus escapes via his parents from herod to Egypt.

There are more escape verses.

And no...I will never use "trials" as my basis for purity.

We are in the NEW COVENANT.
I am purified by the blood of Christ.

Look at the 10 virgin parable.
5 were worthy and , 5 unworthy .
The worthy ones were worthy for 1 reason, the oil.
The oil was the determining factor.
The worthy ones left with Jesus.
Ahem....in a pretrib setting.
 
**************THE OP****************
""3. Jesus’ Teaching: Endurance as Faithfulness
In the Synoptic Gospels, particularly the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24), Jesus speaks plainly about suffering and persecution that will befall His followers. He does not promise their removal from tribulation but insists upon their endurance within it:
“Then they will hand you over to be persecuted… but the one who endures to the end will be saved” (Matthew 24:9–13).
Endurance signifies steadfast perseverance. Salvation, therefore, is not the avoidance of tribulation but the demonstration of fidelity in its midst.
Similarly, in John 16:33, Jesus assures His disciples, “In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” His victory does not eliminate the experience of suffering but grants meaning and hope within it.
The agricultural metaphor of pruning in John 15:2 reinforces this truth: even fruitful branches are cut back so that they might yield more. Divine pruning parallels the refining fire—both serve to deepen fruitfulness and spiritual maturity.

Everyone , no matter what their eschatological position, believes without hesitation, that we endure to the end.

But what you are espousing, is that only the trib saints living at the second coming endured to the end??????

Even Paul did not go through the great tribulation.

Maybe all the saints in the grave today are not saved as well. Some modern saints never went through much tribulation at all.

That concept of "Only they that endured to the end are saved", is so misplaced.
It's just unbelievable ,that that somehow supports a post tribulation rapture, when that doctrine actually doesn't have a verse supporting any such rapture.

Ahem...what it is saying is that ANYONE maintaining their testimony to the end is saved.
( pointing to martyrdom and prrseverence)
 
************THE OP***********
QUOTE
"". Jesus’ Teaching: Endurance as Faithfulness
In the Synoptic Gospels, particularly the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24), Jesus speaks plainly about suffering and persecution that will befall His followers. He does not promise their removal from tribulation but insists upon their endurance within it:
“Then they will hand you over to be persecuted… but the one who endures to the end will be saved” (Matthew 24:9–13).
Endurance signifies steadfast perseverance. Salvation, therefore, is not the avoidance of tribulation but the demonstration of fidelity in its midst.
Similarly, in John 16:33, Jesus assures His disciples, “In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” His victory does not eliminate the experience of suffering but grants meaning and hope within it.
The agricultural metaphor of pruning in John 15:2 reinforces this truth: even fruitful branches are cut back so that they might yield more. Divine pruning parallels the refining fire—both serve to deepen fruitfulness and spiritual maturity.""

Jesus teaching escape:

In the 7 letters to the seventh churches. Jesus said:
" because you have kept the word of my testimony. I will also keep you from the hour of trial about to come upon the whole earth."

Jesus said:
" But pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the earth in stand before the son of man."

Jesus uses the escape of Lot and his family

Jesus uses the escape of Noah into the ark preflood.

Jesus escapes via his parents from herod to Egypt.

There are more escape verses.

And no...I will never use "trials" as my basis for purity.

We are in the NEW COVENANT.
I am purified by the blood of Christ.

Look at the 10 virgin parable.
5 were worthy and , 5 unworthy .
The worthy ones were worthy for 1 reason, the oil.
The oil was the determining factor.
The worthy ones left with Jesus.
Ahem....in a pretrib setting.


You noted that...

Jesus said:

" because you have kept the word of my testimony. I will also keep you from the hour of trial about to come upon the whole earth."

Did you check what happened to the chuches this promise was given to?

NONE were raptured.

What you quoted is not what you think it means.

You're going to see in a several years that you"re wrong, but you're going to keep deceiving the people who still listen to you saying "any day now" when the GT is still going strong.


🕊
 
You noted that...



Did you check what happened to the chuches this promise was given to?

NONE were raptured.

What you quoted is not what you think it means.

You're going to see in a several years that you"re wrong, but you're going to keep deceiving the people who still listen to you saying "any day now" when the GT is still going strong.


🕊



I never said or implied any were raptured.

Just skip any verses pointing to any escape.

Not sure how to answer a question that has nothing to do with the many escapes JESUS depicted.
 
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You don't have that choice to be raptured before the GT. None of us do. Also Jesus Himself said the GT will be worse than any other time. You don't believe Him that you will go through it. And you know the consequences for not believing Jesus. You'll soon find out in several years,

I don't understand why you all would allow yourselves to be deceived. Many of you won't make it because it is only endurance in Christ you will not fall away.

I honestly grieve for you all. Just wow.


🕊
Every rapture verse is pretrib setting.
 
there is a lot of speculations in what you wrote that is not based on scripture but i will answer what related to the O.P. Christians do not need a future “great tribulation” to grow, every believer faces trials now, and those are enough for spiritual maturity (John 16:33). The idea that the great tribulation is only for Israel, that a third temple must be rebuilt, or that the Antichrist will appear in a specific way, is also not taught in Scripture. While a faithful remnant of Israel will recognize Jesus, tribulation affects all nations (Matthew 24:9–22).
Rev 14:14 is a Jewish gathering.
Rev 14: 14 is most likely the nail in the coffin for any hope of a postrib rapture.

No postibber can honestly unpack it.
Every postribber must change it.

Rev 14:14, proves hands down, there is more than 1 coming.
 
I never said or implied any were raptured.

Just skip any verses pointing to any escape.

Not sure how to answer a question that has nothing to do with the many escapes JESUS depicted.


Jesus was very specific about end times rapture. It will happen AFTER the GT.

No amount of reading escape into the Bible will change God's mind. If anything, you are not believing what Jesus said and that never ends well.


Every rapture verse is pretrib setting.


That's just your escapism seeing it that way.


🕊
 
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Part II: Refined by Trials: Lessons from Scripture on Faith and Endurance
Abstract
This study explores how God uses tribulation to refine faith. Looking at the stories of Job, Israel in the wilderness, the Babylonian exile, Daniel and his companions, and Elijah, we see that trials are not punishment alone but opportunities for endurance, obedience, humility, and trust. Scripture shows that the faithful are transformed within the fire, not merely delivered from it. The Apostle Paul also affirms that trials produce perseverance and character: “And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope” (Romans 5:3–4).

Introduction
Tribulation in Scripture is often a divine test meant to strengthen rather than destroy. Old Testament narratives give us vivid examples of human endurance under trial. From Job’s suffering to Daniel’s faith under pressure, these stories teach that God is present in every trial and that faithful endurance reveals His character within us.

Job: Integrity and Trust Amid Suffering
Job is a model of steadfast faith. He faces loss, sickness, and confusion, yet refuses to curse God. His words reflect his unwavering integrity: “Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me” (Job 27:5).
Job’s story shows that true faith is relational, not transactional. He learns to trust God not for blessing but for God Himself. The culmination of his endurance is spiritual insight: “Now my eye sees You” (Job 42:5).

Israel in the Wilderness: Dependence and Obedience
The forty years in the wilderness tested an entire nation. God provided manna daily to teach dependence and trust: “He humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna… that He might make you know that man does not live by bread alone” (Deuteronomy 8:3).
Faith in the wilderness was active trust rather than accumulation of security. Those who failed to trust perished, while the faithful entered rest. The wilderness demonstrates that tribulation is a space where dependence on God shapes character.

The Exile: Repentance and Renewal
The Babylonian exile shows how collective suffering can lead to repentance and spiritual renewal. Jeremiah writes: “I will refine them and test them, for what else can I do because of my people?” (Jeremiah 9:7).
Exile broke complacency and self-reliance, awakening Israel to seek God. Return from exile was not just a return to land but a return to covenant faithfulness and worship. Tribulation can purify communities as well as individuals.

Daniel and His Companions: Loyalty and Courage
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the fiery furnace (Daniel 3) refused to worship idols, saying: “Our God whom we serve is able to deliver us… but even if He does not, we will not serve your gods” (v. 17–18).
Their courage shows that faithfulness is not about avoiding danger but remaining loyal in it. Daniel later demonstrates similar integrity in the lions’ den (Daniel 6). Trials refine courage, loyalty, and prayerful steadfastness.

Elijah in the Wilderness: Humility and Listening
After dramatic victories, Elijah faces despair in the wilderness (1 Kings 19). God teaches him through a still small voice rather than fire or wind, showing that tribulation often refines internal qualities: humility, attentiveness, and quiet perseverance.
Faithful endurance involves listening for God’s guidance, even when outward circumstances are difficult.

Qualities Formed Through Tribulation
Across these narratives, we see key virtues formed by trials:
  • Integrity (Job): Faith that remains true even without blessing.
  • Dependence (Israel in the Wilderness): Daily trust in God over human control.
  • Repentance (Exiles): Suffering awakens spiritual renewal.
  • Loyalty and Courage (Daniel and Companions): Obedience even when deliverance is uncertain.
  • Humility and Listening (Elijah): Recognizing weakness as space for God’s strength.
These are not just moral virtues but spiritual qualities that endure and grow under God’s testing.

Conclusion
Scripture shows that tribulation is a refining fire. Trials transform faith, producing endurance, character, and hope (Romans 5:3–4). Believers are not removed from the fire; they are shaped within it. To endure tribulation requires integrity, humility, repentance, loyalty, and trust. In these virtues, trials become a forge, molding hearts to reflect God’s character and bear the light of His kingdom.
“When He has tested me, I shall come forth as gold” — Job 23:10
Christians are not judged after death.
We are judged now in this lifetime.
Most trials and judgment comes because of disobedience.
All believers go through trials.

Those trials correct and as you say have a purifying effect.

None of that has anything to do with the rapture.

Our position is DUE TO COVENANT.
As covenant people we are CLEANSED THROUGH THE BLOOD.

Our personal walk is flawed. But getting into perfection is what is supposed to happen.
IOW according to the bible, I can walk in obedience and avoid much correction, trials and scougeings.

You are confusing cleansing, and ommitting what actually heaven demands.
 
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Jesus was very specific about end times rapture. It will happen AFTER the GT.

No amount of reading escape into the Bible will change God's mind. If anything, you are not believing what Jesus said and that never ends well.





That's just your escapism seeing it that way.


🕊
There is not a single verse pointing to any rapture in your timetable.

Check it for yourself. Look at the op.
Research it.
No verses support a postrib rapture.
You did not post one either.
 
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