Faith or Law?

[Edward429451]

I agree but you assume the results (works) are caused by faith. That's completely incorrect

I think the results of works being caused by faith is just something that happens. When the Lord does something for me, I'm overjoyed and want to pass on the blessing that I have received. The Lord said He will flow through us like a river of life. If I didn't want to run out and tell someone, how can anything flow? It may flow into me as a blessing but if I do not give it to the world somehow, then I am not a river, I am a lake. And lake go stagnant from lack of movement.

So anytime you get blessed, go tell someone what the Lord has done for you and then bless them with a part of it. Now we have flow and will not stagnate.

 

[Nedsk]

I think the results of works being caused by faith is just something that happens. When the Lord does something for me, I'm overjoyed and want to pass on the blessing that I have received. The Lord said He will flow through us like a river of life. If I didn't want to run out and tell someone, how can anything flow? It may flow into me as a blessing but if I do not give it to the world somehow, then I am not a river, I am a lake. And lake go stagnant from lack of movement.

So anytime you get blessed, go tell someone what the Lord has done for you and then bless them with a part of it. Now we have flow and will not stagnate.

If it were the case that faith causes works then there would be no need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. There would be no need for James to say we are saved by works and not faith alone. There would be no need for judgement based on what we did or didn't do. If faith causes works then only those with faith could give food to the hungry. Or a drink to the thirsty. It would be impossible for atheists to ever do such things.

 

[Soyeong]

Regarding legalistic righteousness, faultless Phil3:6 NIV 1984 edition
Discernment, and reading the bible as one cohesive whole make the verse clear. Paul said in the updated version of the NIV he was faultless as a Pharisee concerning the law, however, he could not be including the ten commandments in that statement for he stated in Rom7:7-11 he could not obey them!

Faultless does not refer to having never sinned but to having his sins forgiven.

 

[Soyeong]

If only you stuck to that, you'd be fine. The problem is that you put grace under law. In God's view, I am a new creation in Christ. I died and my life is hidden in Christ with God. What demand are placed on a dead man? None. So all the righteous requirements of God are already met in Jesus. So I ask him to do the living in place of me. God never has a problem with his Son!

The people in the Bible wanted God to be gracious to them by teaching him to obey His law, but you seem to want God to be gracious to you instead of teaching you to obey it. We are new creations in Christ to do good works and the Law of Moses is His instructions for equipping us to do every good work. Those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6), so only those who are following his example of walking in obedience the Law of Moses are in Christ. We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free obey the Law of Moses, not the other way around. Christ freed us from the law of sin in order for us to be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Law off Moses (Romans 8:3-4). Paul also contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of Moses (Romans 8:4-7). Jesus lived in obedience to the Law of Moses, so that is the way that we have the gift of getting to live when he is living in us.

 

[Dino246]

Faultless does not refer to having never sinned but to having his sins forgiven.

Chapter and verse, please.

 

[Dino246]

The people in the Bible wanted God to be gracious to them by teaching him to obey His law

Really? Where is that in Scripture? Given your generalization, please provide five examples.

We are new creations in Christ to do good works and the Law of Moses is His instructions for equipping us to do every good work.

Again, where is that in Scripture?

Those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6), so only those who are following his example of walking in obedience the Law of Moses are in Christ.

Does John say that the way Jesus walked was by obeying the law of Moses? No, he doesn't. So why do you draw that conclusion?

We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free obey the Law of Moses

That is simply ridiculous.

Christ freed us from the law of sin in order for us to be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Law off Moses (Romans 8:3-4).

There is the essence of your error. You don't understand the freedom that Christians have in Christ.

Paul also contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of Moses (Romans 8:4-7).

Here is what Paul actually wrote in that passage:

1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

Does verse 5 say, "who live in accordance with the Law of Moses"? No. Yet you assume that's what it says and on that you base your entire soteriology.

Jesus lived in obedience to the Law of Moses, so that is the way that we have the gift of getting to live when he is living in us.

Nothing in Scripture tells us that. It's your invention.

 

[James456]

Oh but I did address it you just don't like how I addressed it. You have a problem if Paul and James are talking about the same things. You don't want to address it. I understand why.

So address it:
Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law/not committing sin, rather through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

You agree with that?

 

[James456]

Faultless does not refer to having never sinned but to having his sins forgiven.

To be righteous by obeying the law requires perfect obedience of it.
Otherwise, law would not bring wrath(Rom4:15)

 

[Soyeong]

To be righteous by obeying the law requires perfect obedience of it.
Otherwise, law would not bring wrath(Rom4:15)

No, we can't become righteous even as the result of having perfect obedience to it because it was never given as away of doing that (Romans 4:1-5). In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe. The Law of God brings wrath for those who refuse to obey it, not for those who obey it.

 

[James456]

No, we can't become righteous even as the result of having perfect obedience to it because it was never given as away of doing that (Romans 4:1-5). In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe. The Law of God brings wrath for those who refuse to obey it, not for those who obey it.

So basically your view is, you are not righteous by obeying the law, but you can only be in a righteous state if you do obey it.
Well in the real world, that places someone under righteousness of obeying the law.

 

[Soyeong]

Character traits are easy to understand, so righteousness can also be easy to understand, but theological frameworks around it can make it difficult to understand. The only way to attain a character trait is through faith but what it means to attain a character trait is to be a doer of works that embody that trait. For example, the only way for someone to become courageous is through faith apart from being required to have first done enough courageous works in order to earn it as the result, but it would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works, and the same is true for righteousness and every other character trait. This is why the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds to the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31). While Paul denied in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God, he also said in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of it other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous also upholds the Law of God.

While it is true that Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he was a doer of righteous works because he believed God (Genesis 18:19) and that he obeyed the command to offer Isaac because he believed God (Hebrews 11:17), so the faith by which he was declared righteous was also embodied through his works, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his works. In James 2:21-24, Abraham was declared righteous by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was declared righteous by his works insofar as they embodied his faith but not insofar as they were earning it as the result. Note that Abraham was declared righteous by his works in spite of not having perfect obedience to God. Perfect obedience has never been a way of becoming righteous, but rather the one and only way is through faith.

 

[Nedsk]

So address it:
Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law/not committing sin, rather through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

You agree with that?

Why do you keep insisting on using the word law when I'm talking about works? I've said it at least twice now, if works of the law is the same thing as works then you have a dilemma on your hands.

 

[James456]

Why do you keep insisting on using the word law when I'm talking about works?

What's the difference?
If you want to continue, answer my question, or this discussion goes no further

 

[Nedsk]

What's the difference?
If you want to continue, answer my question, or this discussion goes no further

There has to be a difference. The law was the 600+ rules jews were expected to follow. Works on the other hand are Matt 25: 35-36 and again 37-39 and again 42-43 then 44. Not an exhaustive list but not the works of the law mentioned by Paul. Jesus said himself it's not what we put in that defiles us it's what comes out of us. Works are a choice but if you think just following the law is salvific you're greatly mistaken. James says WORKS complete faith not the law.

 

[James456]

There has to be difference. The law was the 600+ rules jees were expected to follow. Works on the other hand are Matt 25: 35-36 and again 37-39 and again 42-43 then 44. Not an exhaustive list but not the works of the law mentioned by Paul. Jesus said himself it's not what we put in that defiles us it's what comes out of us. Works are a choice but if you think just following the law is salvific you're greatly mistaken. James says WORKS complete faith not the law.

The law covers works, works of the law/works/obeying the law
As you refuse to answer the question concerning the scripture placed before you, though I addressed three scriptures of yours this conversation is over

 

[Nedsk]

The law covers works, works of the law/works/obeying the law
As you refuse to answer the question concerning the scripture placed before you, though I addressed three scriptures of yours this conversation is over

You should leave the conversation. I would if I was you.

 

[James456]

You should leave the conversation. I would if I was you.

Your problem is, you are only confident to address your own scriptures, clearly you are not confident to address what is placed before you

 

[Edward429451]

If it were the case that faith causes works then there would be no need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. There would be no need for James to say we are saved by works and not faith alone. There would be no need for judgement based on what we did or didn't do. If faith causes works then only those with faith could give food to the hungry. Or a drink to the thirsty. It would be impossible for atheists to ever do such things.

It explains quite a but more in that chapter than one verse about there must be works alongside faith. Anyone can go into a church and say the sinners prayer, but what does he do after that? Will he have any works? What works? Why?

Joining the Lord's family is the beginning my friend, it's almost like joining the Service. You signed up and then, you show up and are trained and then do military stuff, the work of it. Our works and good deeds for others is the fruit of wow we can see you are in the service now, it shows. In our military it may be in the Uniform he wears, or in the case of grenades in his garage (Lol)

James 2: 14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also..../KJV

Our works are the proof to God that we are serious about following Him.

Two kinds of Christians said the sinners prayer that day in church. One went home to wait on God to bless him and he sat down on his couch, and made sure to go to church every sunday. I'm saved now.

The other Christian went home and began reading God's word to put him self into the presence of God and He began asking lots of questions and he felt so good that he wanted to please the Lord. The Lord blessed him for it because obedience is rewarded to us from the Lord.

 

[Nedsk]

Your problem is, you are only confident to address your own scriptures, clearly you are not confident to address what is placed before you

No I'm addressing the apparent conflict between Paul saying "the works of the law" will not save us and James saying we are saved by "works" and not faith alone. When you talk to me you are going to have to do more then just parrot passages you have remembered by rote. You have to be able to explain how "works of the law" is the same as "works" but one person says it's useless while the other says it's necessary. I've ridden this bull in this rodeo too many times with you people.

If works of the law and works are the same thing how can they be both non salvific and salvific. Don't give me more passages we that doesn't resolve this dilemma that you have.

 

[James456]

No I'm addressing the apparent conflict between Paul saying "the works of the law" will not save us and James saying we are saved by "works" and not faith alone. When you talk to me you are going to have to do more then just parrot passages you have remembered by rote. You have to be able to explain how "works of the law" is the same as "works" but one person says it's useless while the other says it's necessary. I've ridden this bull in this rodeo too many times with you people.

If works of the law and works are the same thing how can they be both non salvific and salvific. Don't give me more passages we that doesn't resolve this dilemma that you have.

More deflection from your inability to answer a simple question relating to a portion of scripture