Faith or Law?

[Dino246]

My position is that the Jerusalem Council required Gentiles to obey the Law of Moses, which is the opposite of giving them a licensee to sin. You can keeping claiming otherwise without giving any sort of justification for your claim, but that won't cause it to become true. Claiming nonsense to be an indisputable fact does not make it indisputable.

You have no evidence that the Council required Gentiles to follow the ordinances of the Law.

Scripture presents clear evidence that the Council DID NOT require the Gentiles to follow the ordinances of the Law:

Acts 15:28-29 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Could someone please quote my post and tag Soyeong? Apparently he has me on Ignore.

 

[Soyeong]

I have to leave.

But you're saying that Paul taught the law?

Paul taught against the Law.

In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish the Law of God, but rather our faith upholds it, so I uphold the Law of God through faith and oppose the position that it has been abolished, yet you take the position that it has been abolished instead of upholding the it through faith.

While there were different categories of law other than the Law of God that Paul taught against, he was a servant of God who therefore never spoke against obeying the Law of God. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

You've MENTIONED some scripture regarding that Paul taught the Law?
Acts 14.21-22, 20:24-25, 28:23

Could you PLEASE POST SCRIPTURE so that I can reply to it?

Thanks.

This shows that Paul also taught the same Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace based upon the Law of Moses that Christ taught:

Acts 14:21-22 “When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.”

Acts 20:24-25 “But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again.”

Acts 28:23 “When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.”

Romans 15:4 “For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.”

Romans 15:18-19 “For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ;”

 

[Soyeong]

The reason hes put that up is, I explained to him, if his views are correct, the leaders of the first century church, at the council of Jerusalem must have given gentiles a licence to sin as they only asked gentiles to follow four mosaic laws. He disputes that is true

It is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is, so if the Jerusalem Council had ruled that Gentiles only need to obey four laws, then they gave Gentiles a license to sin, but that is if your position were true, not mine.

 

[Soyeong]

I understand thanks to James, the other member.

Of course, I cannot agree.
You're saying the APOSTLES gave permission to sin
IF you're concept is correct.

So, it must not be correct.

You're forcing a choice between YOU and the APOSTLES !

I take the position that the Apostles were servants of God who therefore should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying what God has commanded, but rather those who take the the position that the Apostles permitted the Gentiles to do what the Law of Moses reveals to be sin and taking the position that they gave Gentiles a license to sin, which must not be correct.

In Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him is if they speak against obeying what He has commanded, so it is either incorrect to interpret the Apostles as doing that or they were false prophets, but either way followers of Christ should follow his example of obedience to what God has commanded. If you consider the Apostles to be servants of God, then you should be opposed to interpreting them as speaking against obeying what God has commanded and if you think that they should be interpreted as speaking against obeying what God has commanded, then you done opposed to considering them to be servants of God, but Deuteronomy 13 does not leave any room for someone to consider the Apostles to be servants of God while also thinking that they should be interpreted as speaking against obeying what God has commanded.

If there was a king who gave commands to govern the conduct of the citizens of his kingdom who instructed not to listen to anyone who speaks against obeying what he has commanded and someone was going around speaking against obeying what the king has commanded, then would this person be a servant of the king or an enemy of the king?

 

[Soyeong]

Yeah this is the law of spirit and life that sets free

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

His word Jesus word sets free from sin

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In Psalm 119:142, the Law of Moses is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of the Law of Moses that puts us into bondage while the truth sets us free.

the law of sin and death

“Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭20:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is sin . Anyone who sins must surely die

“And the man that committeth adultery ( sin ) with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”( and death )
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭

That’s what the law does it cannot justify anyone before God. It gives us the inowledge of sin and teaches us that the wages of sin , is death.

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul notably described the law of sin and death as I quoted, not as a law that defines what sin is and has the penalty of death for breaking. In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul directly contrasted the Law of Moses with the law of sin and death. The law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, so it is sinful and causes sin to increase whereas the Law of Moses is not sinful but how we know what sin is and causes sin to decrease.

“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which is in accordance with him being sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26). This is the Gospel that Jesus said has been preached since John, so he was not speaking about the Law ending with John so that can stop repenting and go back to being doers of what it reveals to be wickedness. In Luke 16:17, Jesus said that it would be easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least part to disappear from the law, so again he was not speaking about a law that he thought had ended with John. Moreover, Jesus preceded to teach obedience to the Law of Moses in Luke 16:18. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Law of Moses.

Look into the kingdom of God where it’s the preisthood of melchezidek with our high priest Jesus Christ . Where it’s the shedding of the blood of Gods lamb once for all sin . Where it’s the city God prepared for his people that no one has ever seen in the company of angels and with Jesus the mediator of the new covenant holding much better promises than the law of Moses ever offered them to whom it was given

New covenants do not nullify the promises of covenants that have already been ratified, so God's covenants are eternal and cumulatively valid. One thing can only make another thing obsolete to the extent that it has cumulative functionality, so a computer makes a typewriter obsolete but down not make a plow obsolete, which means that if the New Covenant involved doing something different that were not cumulative with the Mosaic Covenant, then it could not make it obsolete. The Mosaic Covenant is eternal (Exodus 31:14-17, Leviticus 24:8), so the only way that it can be made obsolete by the New Covenant is if it is cumulative with it. So the New Covenant still involves following the Law of Moses (Hebrews 8:10) plus it is cumulatively based on better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6). The fault that God found with the Mosaic Covenant was not with His law, but with the people for not continuing in their covenant (Hebrews 8:7-9), so the salutation to the problem was not to do away with His law, but in order to do away with what was hindering us from obeying it. This is why the New Covenant involves God sending His Son to free us from the law of sin so that we could be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Law of Moses (Romans 8:3-4), God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Law of Moses (Ezekiel 36:26-27), ad God putting the Law of Moses in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33).

“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭

“and by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭13:39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Even Moses understood Jesus would come and speak Gods everlasting covenant word and the words which will judge every man is not those of moses but those of Christ Jesus which is why we should look to what he was preaching and particularly what his apostles preached afterwards to the church concerning the law of moses …..

People should truly read the entire covenant with israel before they try to resurrect it and make it the mew
Covenant ……but the gospel is far better in every conceivable way and it won’t curse a person when they commit a sin …..

We can't earn our justification even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of Moses because it was never given as a way of doing that in the first place (Romans 4:1-5), so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of its goal. Paul also said that only the doers of the Law of Moses will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there is a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of it other than in order to earn it as a wage, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified also upholds the Law of Moses (Romans 3:28-31). The same God who gave the Law to Moses also sent Jesus as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness in disobedience to it, so there is no disagreement.

 

[Dino246]

It is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is, so if the Jerusalem Council had ruled that Gentiles only need to obey four laws, then they gave Gentiles a license to sin, but that is if your position were true, not mine.

Wrong. Giving people a license to sin is telling them that there are no consequences to sin. Christians don't have that view.

What we do have is the indwelling Holy Spirit Who guides us to the right action in every case (if we care to inquire of Him). Our relationship with God is based not on adherence to external laws (even the commandments) but on walking with God. If you walk with God, you have no need of law to keep you from sin.

I honestly wonder whether all the legalists on this site lately are just deaf to the Holy Spirit, or if they are saved at all. Maybe some of each.

 

[James456]

It is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is, so if the Jerusalem Council had ruled that Gentiles only need to obey four laws, then they gave Gentiles a license to sin, but that is if your position were true, not mine.

sigh

 

[Soyeong]

sigh

It's an indisputable fact.

 

[James456]

It's an indisputable fact.

I would say it is an indisputable fact you do not understand the new covenant message, but rather an old covenant type message

 

[Toknow]

You have no evidence that the Council required Gentiles to follow the ordinances of the Law.

Scripture presents clear evidence that the Council DID NOT require the Gentiles to follow the ordinances of the Law:

Acts 15:28-29 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Could someone please quote my post and tag Soyeong? Apparently he has me on Ignore.

LOL
He may not have you on ignore....

You're just confirming what he believes.

He's saying that by not requiring Gentiles to follow the Law of Moses
the Apostles are CAUSING the Gentiles to sin.

S believes that we're all sinning by not followiing The Law.

 

[Toknow]

sigh

Incredible stuff coming out of Christianity these days.

Some say we could not even obey Jesus and still be saved.
Some say we must follow The Law or not be saved.
!!



See my post no. 290

 

[Dino246]

LOL
He may not have you on ignore....

You're just confirming what he believes.

He's saying that by not requiring Gentiles to follow the Law of Moses
the Apostles are CAUSING the Gentiles to sin.

S believes that we're all sinning by not followiing The Law.

His beliefs do seem rather aberrant.

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

I disagree with those who promote rigid observance of Law in order to be righteous. I do not say such things in isolation.
Galatians 3: 1-5
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh? Have you suffered so much for nothing, if it really was for nothing? Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe?

This was written by one of the foremost scholars of the Law. We do well to take him seriously.

CONDEMNATION conviction of guilt; censure or blame

Rom 5:9 ... Save us from God's c.
Rom 7:13 ... Bring about my c to death.
Rom 8:1 ... There is no c for those who
2 Cor 3:9 ... Which brings c, was glorious,


"So there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. And because you belong to him, the power* of the life-giving Spirit has freed you* from the power of sin that leads to death." (Romans 8:1-2, Tyndale House Publishers, Inc NLT)

*8:2a Greek the law; also in 8:2b
*8:2b Some manuscripts read me.

Romans 5:9 "And since we have been made right in God's sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God's condemnation. For since our friendship with God was restored by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be saved through the life of his Son. So now we can rejoice in our wonderful new relationship with God because our Lord Jesus Christ has made us Friends of God" (Tyndale House, NLT)

"We can rejoice, too, when we run into problems and trials, for we know that they help us develop endurance. And endurance develops strength of character, and character strengthens our confident hope of salvation. And this hope will not lead to disappointment. For we know how dearly God loves us, because he has given us the Holy Spirit to fill our hearts with love. When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners. Now, most people would not be willing to die for a person who is especially good. But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners" (Tyndale House, NLT)

Romans 2:22 "Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?" (Christian Art Publishers Holy Bible King James Version)

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; and patience experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commandeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:1-9 Christian Art Publishers Holy Bible King James Version)

A friend of a friend is your friend. Let the better be the friend of the good, and the friend of your enemy be your enemy. Pray for your enemies, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This prayer gives me hope in endurance:

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

What is this? or What does this mean?

I believe that by my own understanding or strength
I cannot believe in Jesus Christ my Lord
or come to him,
but instead the Holy Spirit
has called me through the gospel,
enlightened me with his gifts, made me holy,
and kept me in the true faith,
just as he calls, gathers, enlightens, and makes holy
the whole Christian church on earth
and keeps it with Jesus Christ
in the one common, true faith.

Daily in this Christian church
the Holy Spirit abundantly forgives all sins --
mine and those of all believers.
On the last day the Holy Spirit will raise me
and all the dead
and will give to me and all believers in Christ
eternal life.
This is most certainly true.

"One day as he saw the crowds gathering, Jesus went up on the mountainside and sat down. His disciples gathered around him, and he began to teach them." Matthew 5:1-2 NLT

 

[Toknow]

In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish the Law of God, but rather our faith upholds it, so I uphold the Law of God through faith and oppose the position that it has been abolished, yet you take the position that it has been abolished instead of upholding the it through faith.

Romans 3:31


While there were different categories of law other than the Law of God that Paul taught against, he was a servant of God who therefore never spoke against obeying the Law of God. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.


This shows that Paul also taught the same Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace based upon the Law of Moses that Christ taught:

Acts 14:21-22 “When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.”

Acts 20:24-25 “But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again.”

Acts 28:23 “When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.”

Romans 15:4 “For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.”

Romans 15:18-19 “For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ;”

 

[Toknow]

@Soyeong

S,

I spent a lot of time replying to your verses above.
The post GOT ERASED!!
I can't believe it.

No way I could repeat all that.

If you care to take one verse at a time,,,I'm willing.

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

Here is how faith and law can be harmonized per the NT:

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace or motivates good works while walking/living in the Spirit (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (Rom. 1:17). IOW, the ability to do good works as well as have saving faith are both due to God’s grace. Faith first; love lasts (Eph. 2:8-10, Rom. 5:5).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10 Christian Art Publishers Holy Bible New Living Translation)

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God the Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things)." Ephesians 4:4-10 KJV

 

[Soyeong]

LOL
He may not have you on ignore....

You're just confirming what he believes.

He's saying that by not requiring Gentiles to follow the Law of Moses
the Apostles are CAUSING the Gentiles to sin.

S believes that we're all sinning by not followiing The Law.

The Bible states that it is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), that we would not even know what sin is if it weren't for it (Romans 7:7) and that sin is the the transgression of it (1 John 3:4), so why would saying that Gentiles are permitted to do what God has revealed to be sin not be leading them to sin?

Incredible stuff coming out of Christianity these days.

Some say we could not even obey Jesus and still be saved.
Some say we must follow The Law or not be saved.
!!



See my post no. 290

Do you think that someone can be saved from sin without turning from what God has revealed to be sin?

@Soyeong

S,

I spent a lot of time replying to your verses above.
The post GOT ERASED!!
I can't believe it.

No way I could repeat all that.

If you care to take one verse at a time,,,I'm willing.

Sadness.

You are welcome to reply at whatever pace works best for you.

 

[Soyeong]

I would say it is an indisputable fact you do not understand the new covenant message, but rather an old covenant type message

I've been speaking about the way to live under the New Covenant and I've given much biblical support for my position, so you're welcome to explain why I am wrong, but if you neglect to do that, then I'll just stick with Scripture.

 

[James456]

I've been speaking about the way to live under the New Covenant and I've given much biblical support for my position, so you're welcome to explain why I am wrong, but if you neglect to do that, then I'll just stick with Scripture.

You look to an external law, that is not where the law is under the new covenant

 

[Toknow]

The Bible states that it is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), that we would not even know what sin is if it weren't for it (Romans 7:7) and that sin is the the transgression of it (1 John 3:4), so why would saying that Gentiles are permitted to do what God has revealed to be sin not be leading them to sin?


Do you think that someone can be saved from sin without turning from what God has revealed to be sin?


Sadness.

You are welcome to reply at whatever pace works best for you.

The Law teaches what sin is.
OK

But are we supposed to be living under the law?
have you sacrificed any animals lately?

You never respond to this.
NO TEMPLE.
NO SACRIFICIAL SYSTEM.
etc.

You've never replied.

As to your verses...
it's important which is why I took the long time to respond.

I do this for new Christians that might be reading along.

Will take a verse at a time again, but later on when I have more time....