Faith or Law?

[Pilgrimshope]

In Romans 7-8:2, Paul said that the Law of God is good, that he wanted to do good, that he delighted in obeying it, and that he served it with his mind in contrast with the law of sin, which was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, which was waging war against the law of his mind, which he served with his flesh, which held him captive, and which the Law of the Spirit has freed us from. In Romans 8:3-7, Jesus freed us from the law of sin so that we might be free to meet the righteous requirements of the Law of God and Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

The Law of God leads us to do what is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) while the law of sin leads us in the opposite direction by stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death (Romans 7:5). Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God (Romans 7:22), so verses that refer to something that would be absurd for Paul to delight in doing should not be interpreted as referring to the Law of God while verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that hinders us from obeying the Law of God should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin.

For example, in Romans 6:14, Paul describe the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over him and it would be absurd for Paul to delight in sin having dominion over him, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and in Romans 7:7, the Law of God is not sinful but how we know what sin is, so we are still under the Law of God but are not under the law of sin. In Romans 6:16, Paul contrasted these two directions by saying that we are slaves to the one that we obey, either the law of sin, which leads to death, or obedience to the Law of God, which leads to righteousness. In Romans 6:17-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so being a doer of the Law of God is His gift of eternal life in Christ.

In regard to Romans 7:1-6, if you are not careful, then you can interpret as saying that we need to die to God's gift of eternal life. At no point was the woman set free from needing to obey the Law of Moses, and if she were to get married to a second man after the death of her first husband, then she would still be required to refrain from committing adultery, so there is nothing that leads to the conclusion in Romans 7:4 that in the same way we have been set free from the Law of Moses. It would be absurd to interpret as saying that the way to become unified with God's Word made flesh is by dying to God's Word or by dying to what he taught us to embody, rather we need to die to a law that was hindering us from obeying the Law of God, namely the law of sin. Likewise, it would be absurd to interpret that as saying that the way to bear fruit for God is by dying to His instructions for how to bear fruit for Him. It would be absurd to interpret Romans 7:5 as referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. It would also be absurd to interpret Romans 7:6 as if Paul delighted in being held captive to sin, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive (Romans 7:23) and that the Law of the Spirit has free us from (Romans 8:1-2).

Yeah this is the law of spirit and life that sets free

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

His word Jesus word sets free from sin

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the law of sin and death

“Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭20:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is sin . Anyone who sins must surely die

“And the man that committeth adultery ( sin ) with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”( and death )
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭

That’s what the law does it cannot justify anyone before God. It gives us the inowledge of sin and teaches us that the wages of sin , is death.

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems you’re trying to make new covenant rather than accepting there was one that was broken and another that came forth after by Gods promises in tbe old ….

“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

instead of looking at Israel’s fallen desolate kingdom and it’s carnal doctrine regarding sin and death look for the doctrine that’s teaching believers in Jesus about the kingdom of God.

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:36‬ ‭

sin and death v word of life

“Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

Look into the kingdom of God where it’s the preisthood of melchezidek with our high priest Jesus Christ . Where it’s the shedding of the blood of Gods lamb once for all sin . Where it’s the city God prepared for his people that no one has ever seen in the company of angels and with Jesus the mediator of the new covenant holding much better promises than the law of Moses ever offered them to whom it was given

“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭

“and by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭13:39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Even Moses understood Jesus would come and speak Gods everlasting covenant word and the words which will judge every man is not those of moses but those of Christ Jesus which is why we should look to what he was preaching and particularly what his apostles preached afterwards to the church concerning the law of moses …..

People should truly read the entire covenant with israel before they try to resurrect it and make it the mew
Covenant ……but the gospel is far better in every conceivable way and it won’t curse a person when they commit a sin …..

 

[Toknow]

You have the right to cherry pick scripture to make it say something that it does not. No one can stop you. But Paul would describe you as foolish. You do not know the either the purpose of the Law or the power of the cross. I'll leave you God to sort out.

I'm new here Gideon and do not know everyone here on this thread.
Not sure what @tablet123 means about following THE LAW since we are not under the Law....
but why do you accuse him of cherry picking?
Are you not doing the same?

What's the difference?
When I use scripture to support my position...this is "cherry picking" but for you it is not??

Hope to join in when I have more time...

 

[James456]

“in Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted the Book of the Law with "works of the law",”

hes not contrasting the book of the law with its works in Galatians 3 at all . he’s explaining the law and the curse written in it and showing faiths superiority over it again just have to read it

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; ( until Jesus came ) and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.( the law ) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:7, 10-12, 19-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“and Galatians 3:10-12, he said that our faith upholds the Law of Moses”

lol what ?

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you read this as saying “ our faith upholds the law of Moses ?” I think that’s what happens when we are kissing information like this for instance addressing your idea about Moses law

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

( I encourage you to read the entire discussion but thier conclusion is clear )

forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5-6, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

of course some find it hard to accept what the apostles taught but I mean if someone wants to be on this group it’s …… a chcoice lots of them seem to really want to make

“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, ( thou shall not kill , honor thy mother and father) for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, ( thou shall not lie ) for perjured persons, ( thou shalt bear false witness ) and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Repetetively

“Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭2:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:56‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7:12‬ ‭

We have to obey Christ and the gospel not Moses and Israel’s law for thier land two different covenants gotta leave the old behind or will never see the new … it’s like a blindfold

“and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

again can’t obey Moses and also Jesus

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a toothmoses wrote this )


but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We can’t live eye for an eye retaliating equally and also turn the other cheek and not retaliate in kind when someone offends us . They are opposite directives because they are different covenants and two different mediators two different preisthoods ect ect

Probably should be pointed out works of the law is observing the law. So

For all who rely on observing the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith

As in you cannot be justified by obeying the law because you would have to faultlessly obey it. Therefore, you would be under a curse if you tried that.
Of course, some say you are not justified by obeying the law but the justified will obey the law. Still places you under justification of obeying the law.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Probably should be pointed out works of the law is observing the law. So

For all who rely on observing the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith

As in you cannot be justified by obeying the law because you would have to faultlessly obey it. Therefore, you would be under a curse if you tried that.
Of course, some say you are not justified by obeying the law but the justified will obey the law. Still places you under justification of obeying the law.

“As in you cannot be justified by obeying the law because you would have to faultlessly obey it.”

Correct , that’s part of what’s written in the law that was given by Moses to israel . If you dont do everything moses book of the law commands you fall under the curse for breaking it.

“the justified will obey the law. “

the law of Christ right , not Moses law given to the children of Israel in the desert . We obey Christ and the gospel

We aren’t the children of isreal , and werent born under the law and circumcised unto the law of Moses we were never promised the land of Canaan we didn’t stand before the Mount and receive the law telling us what not to do we didn’t appoint Moses as mediator because we feared hearing Gods word we didn’t let Moses read all of his book and then swear as a people to obey everything ect ect


we know God and exist in him this way

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[GWH]

Law > Faith > Works
(Gal. 3:24-25, Eph. 2:8-10)

 

[Toknow]

I disagree with those who promote rigid observance of Law in order to be righteous. I do not say such things in isolation.
Galatians 3: 1-5
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh? Have you suffered so much for nothing, if it really was for nothing? Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe?

This was written by one of the foremost scholars of the Law. We do well to take him seriously.

Why is this thread titled FAITH OR LAW??

We are not under the Law.....

and

Faith was necessary even when THE LAW did exist.

And who promotes rigid obsservance of something that does not exist??

 

[Toknow]

“As in you cannot be justified by obeying the law because you would have to faultlessly obey it.”

Correct , that’s part of what’s written in the law that was given by Moses to israel . If you dont do everything moses book of the law commands you fall under the curse for breaking it.

“the justified will obey the law. “

the law of Christ right , not Moses law given to the children of Israel in the desert . We obey Christ and the gospel

We aren’t the children of isreal , and werent born under the law and circumcised unto the law of Moses we were never promised the land of Canaan we didn’t stand before the Mount and receive the law telling us what not to do we didn’t appoint Moses as mediator because we feared hearing Gods word we didn’t let Moses read all of his book and then swear as a people to obey everything ect ect


we know God and exist in him this way

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So the OP actually believes that Christians are under The Law??

Thanks.

 

[Gideon300]

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Law of Moses is to graciously teaching us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3).


I speak about how wonderful God's grace is all of the time. In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to be doers of those works in obedience to the Law of Moses is part of His gift of salvation. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20).

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God gracious teaching us to be a doer of good works in obedience to the Law of Moses is nevertheless a central part of His gift of salvation.

In 1 John 3:4-10, those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of Moses are not born again.

The Law of Moses is God's Word (Deuteronomy 5:31-33) and Jesus is God's Word made flesh, so he set a perfect example for us to follow how to embody it.

It's not clear to me why you are acting as if supporting obedience to the Law of Moses is not in accordance with speaking about these things.

You really do not know what the Christian life is really about. The clue is in the "life" aspect of Christianity. What laws did Adam and Eve have to follow? None. They were told one thing that they should not do. And there was a good reason. It would bring death. And Adam disobeyed that simple prohibition and so he died.

Jesus came to be the Last Adam. He did the opposite of the first Adam. Lord Jesus resisted Satan's temptations. He obeyed God perfectly in every way. Jesus came that we might have His life. He replaces the Tree of Life that was in Eden. He told us that we must "eat His flesh and drink His blood". Obviously this is not literal. Lord Jesus is the "Bread of Heaven" Israel ate manna in the wilderness and died. Manna was God's provision for a time, until Israel entered the promised land. Physical bread is good for physical life. Lord Jesus is spiritual life to those who choose Him.

The Law of Moses is the letter that kills. And it does its job perfectly. The idea that God kills us through the law then raises us up to obey the law that brings death is absurd.

God instituted a new law to replace that which brings death.

"Now if the ministry of death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at the face of Moses because of its fleeting glory, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry of righteousness! Indeed, what was once glorious has no glory now in comparison to the glory that surpasses it. For if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which endures!" (2 Corinthians 3:7-10)

You and your ilk are like Adam, going to the tree of knowledge of good and evil that brings death. Then you have the hide to criticise those who actually know God's truth and who reject your false interpretation.

I expect that you will reject this great truth. I can do nothing about that. My intention is to help those who might be persuaded to join you in your folly.

1 John 3:4 is not referring to those who do not slavishly follow the 10 commandments. You need to learn what it means to be lawless. Jesus condemned the Pharisees who followed the Law to the letter. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

 

[Gideon300]

Why is this thread titled FAITH OR LAW??

We are not under the Law.....

and

Faith was necessary even when THE LAW did exist.

And who promotes rigid obsservance of something that does not exist??

That's exactly why gave the post the title. A number of people on the forum have little idea. I've just responded to someone who believes those who do not follow the law are not born again. He/She must read a different Bible.

 

[Dino246]

And who promotes rigid obsservance of something that does not exist??

Your question is disingenuous. There are several people on this forum who promote strict observance of the Law as given to Moses, or parts of it.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Sure, like He told the Galatians. I'll say it again, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.

I've often heard it said, the closer we come to God the more we see our imperfections, the more unhappy we are about them. In my view, continued of statements of, it is easy to obey God's laws/not commit sin does not reflect maturity in the faith, to say the least

As I addressed your question would you like to address mine now?
Sin is the transgression of the law
Through the law we become conscious of sin
You believe the Mosaic law is written in the minds and placed on the hearts of believers
Would you agree, what is in your mind you in your mind must know?
The law in your heart must bring heartfelt consciousness of sin if you fail to follow it?
Therefore, if you are correct, no one could be in a saved state unless they had heartfelt consciousness of sin at failing to follow all possible Mosaic law?

You all realize that it's what God thinks that's important, right?

You all can twist His word all you want and ignore other parts of it to make it say what you want, but God's meaning of it all is what stands.

If it is wrong to obey God, He would have chastised or punished His obedient people, but He hasn't done that at all in the whole 2,000 years since Jesus ascended. His obedient people have been blessed instead and He never corrected us. He has even encouraged us to continue to obey Him, and all the more through our lives.

So really, no obedient child of God will listen to any of you just like Jesus didn't listen to the Pharisees and Sadducees. They only listened to and obey God.


🕊

 

[James456]

You all realize that it's what God thinks that's important, right?

You all can twist His word all you want and ignore other parts of it to make it say what you want, but God's meaning of it all is what stands.

If it is wrong to obey God, He would have chastised or punished His obedient people, but He hasn't done that at all in the whole 2,000 years since Jesus ascended. His obedient people have been blessed instead and He never corrected us. He has even encouraged us to continue to obey Him, and all the more through our lives.

So really, no obedient child of God will listen to any of you just like Jesus didn't listen to the Pharisees and Sadducees. They only listened to and obey God.


🕊

In my view, your repeated comments of ''it is easy not to sin,'' means I cannot take you seriously in this subject

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

In my view, your repeated comments of ''it is easy not to sin,'' means I cannot take you seriously in this subject

You keep making the same mistake that your opinion has the same weight as God’s to me....

 

[James456]

You keep making the same mistake that your opinion has the same weight as God’s to me....

Well as John admitted he was not without sin and Paul said the ten commandments were the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation, your repeated comments can only mean one of two things. Either you are ignorant as to where the bar is set not to commit sin, or, you are trying to impress people you are at a level you have not reached

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Well as John admitted he was not without sin and Paul said the ten commandments were the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation your repeated comments c an only mean two things. Either tyou are ignorant as to where the bar is set not to commit sin, or, you are trying to impress people you are at a level you have not reached

Well people can read my posts for themselves and see you are lying about me.

I really love God because that is a product of submitting to Him. And loving God gives me the desire to obey God and actually follow through by the power of the Holy Spirit.

So this is just the work of the Holy Spirit in me. It physically manifests in obedience to the Lord.

You can't understand this because you haven't submitted to Him.


🕊

 

[James456]

Well people can read my posts for themselves and see you are lying about me.

I really love God because that is a product of submitting to Him. And loving God gives me the the desire to obey God.

So this is just the work of the Holy Spirit in me. It physically manifests in obeg8ence to the Lord.

You can't understand this because you haven't submitted to Him.


🕊

How would you know if I've submitted to God?
And no I did not lie, my opinion is based on Paul's and John's words

 

[Soyeong]

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace that Paul also taught based on the Law of Moses (Acts 14:21-22, 20:24-25, 28:23). Moreover, that is in accordance with Jesus being send as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which he spread to those in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5).

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach children and those of his household to walk in God's way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's children in the stars in the heavens, to his children He will give all of these lands, and through his children all of the nations of the earth shall be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His charge, commandments, statutes, and laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham will love God with all of their hearts by walking in His way in obedience to His commandments statutes, and laws, then they will live and multiply and God will bless them in the land that they go to possess. So the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace, and because they did that in obedience to the Law of Moses.

In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doers of the same works as him, and Psalm 119:1-3, the Law of Moses is how the children of Abraham know how to be blessed by walking in His way, so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and by teaching them to do the same works as Abraham by walking in God's way in obedience to His law, which is directly relevant to understanding what Galatians 3 says about the promise and the blessing of Abraham.

‭‭Galatians 3:10-12

In Romans 3:31, it says that our faith upholds the Law of Moses, and in Galatians 3:10-12, it says that "works of the law" are not faith, so I contrasted those verses to make the point that they should not be interpreted as both referring to the same thing. If Paul was arguing against relying on God's instructions, then he was arguing against relying on God, which is absurd, so it is incorrect to interpret Paul speaking against relying on "works of the law" as speaking against relying on the the Book of the Law. According to Deuteronomy 28-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so Galatians 3:10, should not be interpreted as Paul quoting form that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. Rather, the fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law straightforwardly means that we should continue to do everything in the Book of the Law in order to avoid being cursed and that those who rely on "works of the law" instead the Book of the Law thereby come under that curse.

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that those who obey the Law of Moses shall attain life by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same who are living in obedience to the Law of Moses. Moreover, the context of Habakkuk 2:4 does present the righteous who are living by faith as a way of living that is an alternative to living in obedience to the Law of Moses. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Law of Moses, in Romans 2:13, only the doers of the Law of Moses will be declared righteous, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of Moses is righteous even as they are righteous, so again the righteous living by faith is describing the way that the righteous are living in obedience to the Law of Moses.

‭‭Acts‬ ‭15

Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked, so Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example neither Galatians nor Acts 15 should interpreted as ruling against Gentiles being followers of Christ. Rather, Acts 15:6-7 affirms the Pharisees from among the believers Acts 15:5 that Gentiles had heard and bellied the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace that calls for obedience to the Law of Moses. Im Ezekiel 36:26-27, God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Law of Moses, which is in accordance with Acts 15:8-9 where Peter argued that Gentiles had received the Spirit and had their hearts cleansed, so again he was affirming the Pharisees from among the believers. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so the has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, which is in accordance with what Peter argued in Acts 15:10-11, so again he was affirming the Pharisees from among the believers. No one there was arguing that Gentiles should follow Christ, but rather it was a debate between the men from Judea and the Pharisees from among the believers in regard to whether salvation is by circumcision (Acts 15:1) or by grace.

Acts 15:19-21 either contains an exhaustive list for mature believers or it does not, so it would be contradictory to treat it as being an exhaustive list in order to limit which laws Gentiles should follow while also treating it as being a non-exhaustive list by taking the position that there are obviously other laws that Gentiles should follow. It was not given as an exhaustive list for mature believers but as a list intended to avoid making things too difficult for new believers, which they excused by saying that Gentiles would continue to lear about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues.

‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬

In 1 Timothy 1:8, it says that the Law of Moses is good if it is used properly, so verses 9-10 should not be used to argue that it is not good to follow. If someone tries to use these verses to justify their freedom to be a doer of unrighteous works in disobedience to the Law of Moses, then that means that they are among the unrighteous and lawlessness that the Law of Moses was made for.
‬‬

‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‬

If you agree that it is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is and that we should refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin, then you should agree that we should obey the Law of Moses.

‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7:12‬

God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore the way to embody His righteousness is also eternal (Psalms 119:160), and if the way to embody His righteousness were to ever change, then His righteousness would not be eternal. So Hebrews 7:12 could not be referring to a change of the law in regard to its content such as with it becoming righteous to commit adultery or sinful to do charity, but rather the context is speaking about a change in the priesthood, which would also require a change of the law in regard to its administration. Being under a priesthood that is led by God's Word made flesh does not involve changing away from following God's Word.

‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-15‬

The same God who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness in disobedience to it, so there is no disagreement. Jesus asked how we could believe him if we didn't believe Moses (Luke 6:46). The vail was preventing them from seeing that the goal of everything in Scripture is to teach us how to know Christ and is preventing you from seeing the same thing. You want to call me blindfolded, but you are the one who is trying to interpret servants of God in a way that turns them against following Christ's example of obedience to what He has commanded.

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39‬

In Matthew 4, Jesus consistently preceded a quote from what was written by saying "it is written...", but in Matthew 5, he proceeded a quote from what the people had heard being said by saying "you have heard that it was said...", so his emphasis on the different form of communication is important. Jesus was not sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 by making changes to what was written but rather he was fulfilling the Law of Moses by correcting what the people had heard being said and by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended. "An eye for an eye" is still a good guidelines for judges to help ensure fair judgements that are in proportion to the offense, but it was a guideline that was only intended to be used by judges and was not intended to be used in personal situations in order to take vengeance into our own hands.

 

[Edward429451]

That's exactly why gave the post the title. A number of people on the forum have little idea. I've just responded to someone who believes those who do not follow the law are not born again. He/She must read a different Bible.

There's the rub. For Christians, obeying the Law is sort of a fruit of the faith. Many don't understand that. The Lord said, be ye Holy even as I am Holy so being Holy and repentant of our sin, we turn from the sin and thereby follow the law. Right?

 

[James456]

. Rather, the fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law straightforwardly means that we should continue to do everything in the Book of the Law in order to avoid being cursed and that those who rely on "works of the law" instead the Book of the Law thereby come under that curse.

.

Nonsense

 

[Soyeong]

Why is this thread titled FAITH OR LAW??

We are not under the Law.....

and

Faith was necessary even when THE LAW did exist.

And who promotes rigid obsservance of something that does not exist??

For as long as God's character traits have been eternal the way to embody His character traits has also existed regardless of when God gave instructions to man for how to do that. For example, God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of His righteousness laws are also eternal (Psalms 119:160). For instance, it did not suddenly become to embody God's righteousness to be a doer a charity when the law was given, but rather that has always been a way to embody His righteousness before made any covenants with man, so that is an eternally valid way to know God regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. Sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), which is because people could do what is contrary to God's character traits before they had been given instructions to refrain from doing that. Moreover, the fact that sin was in the world before the law was given means that there were no actions that became righteous or sinful when the law was given, but rather it revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that.