We understand it as the Jews in ancient times wrote and understood it, in their expressive style not our modern western lens,.... so please do not accuse of something we do not do.
Replacement theology? Yes or No.
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We understand it as the Jews in ancient times wrote and understood it, in their expressive style not our modern western lens,.... so please do not accuse of something we do not do.
Indeed not enough letting the nt be what fulfills the old according to the I folding story of Israel all
Based upon the conditions in thier covenant as it was given
“a blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
and a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known. And it shall come to pass, when the LORD thy God hath brought thee in unto the land whither thou goest to possess it, that thou shalt put the blessing upon mount Gerizim, and the curse upon mount Ebal. For ye shall pass over Jordan to go in to possess the land which the LORD your God giveth you, and ye shall possess it, and dwell therein. And ye shall observe to do all the statutes and judgments which I set before you this day.”
Deuteronomy 11:27-29, 31-32
If only they would look at the covenant
“And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: and all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God. The LORD shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways. And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the LORD; and they shall be afraid of thee. And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them: and thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.”
Deuteronomy 28:1-2, 8-10, 13-14 KJV
To some Its as if this part isn’t true or is t part of thier covenant
“But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me. The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.
The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish. The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed. The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth. and thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.
The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway: so that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see. And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee. All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume. Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee: and they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.”
Deuteronomy 28:15, 20-22, 24-25, 29, 33-34, 37, 42, 45-46
It’s repeated throughout the prophets the same way and had to be fulfilled as the curse because they repeatedly and continuously broke it and worshipped false gods
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Undergrace1
Guest
Well I shall not respond with any scripture, what is plainly written would soon be overturned, not really stimulating conversation. Have a nice day
U
Undergrace1
Guest
Why are you quoting the plainly written word? What's the point? People are allowed to overturn it at will aren't they?
Yes, it's just better to focus on God making all His promises come to pass concerning Israel and to be thrilled and happy for Him when they do.
The Jew-haters can't stop Him no matter what!
Yes exactly and in spite of their many failures God brought everything to pass and fulfilled it all in Christ Jesus.
I have a passage here I want to share with you from the ESV:
Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;[e] she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
28 Now you,[f] brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
From v.22 to v.25, 3 things are said to have something in common:
1.Hagar, 2.The covenant of Mount Sinai, 3.The present Jerusalem.
From v.26 to v.31 yet another 3 things are compared:
1.Sarah, 2.The covenant of grace, 3.The Jerusalem above.
My question:
In this passage where is God?
a) The present Jerusalem, or
b) The Jerusalem above
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Undergrace1
Guest
Im not discussing the subject with you anymore of OT prophecies and whether God returned the Israelites to their biblical homeland, didn't end well last time, and there's really no point. I accept you will not change your mind, and neither will I
Sorry for the way things went last time, and if you change your mind you are welcome.
I like discussing, even debating.
I have been wrong about many things throughout my life and am used to changing my views when I find reason.
When we blast each other for honestly held views we get no value.
You are right that lack of information is the issue. It is also wilful blindness to the whole counsel of God. It is obvious to any honest reading of scripture that Israel exists, as a nation, according to God's plan and purpose. Indeed Israel will build a new temple. That must happen or the book of Revelation makes no sense.
Everything is prepared for the new temple. The priesthood has been appointed, all the temple furnishings recreated, priestly garments made and a red heifer readied to consecrate the temple. This has NOTHING to do with salvation! Jews are saved exactly the same way as anyone else. It does have to do with God's purpose for the nation of Israel.
Read Jeremiah 31. God says that His covenant with Israel the nation will endure as long as the sun shines and the moon is in orbit (paraphrase, of course). That's verse 35 & 36. I've not seen the moon today, but the sun is up. Israel is there to prove to the nations that God does what He promises to do.
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Undergrace1
Guest
As I will soon be leaving this site, so will not be being drawn into an elongated discussion, I will answer your question
The Jerusalem that is above is free, not the present Jerusalem
And in my view, a time is coming when physical Israelites en masse will accept Christ as their saviour. They, although they will be living in the present Jerusalem, will look forward to the new Jerusalem that is to come, alongside other believers, who live in varying parts of the earth now, also looking forward to the new Jerusalem which is to come.
For, I believe God is quite entitled, if He so chooses to do, to draw Israelites en masse, at a time still to come to His son and save them. He is quite entitled to do anything he wishes for He is God almighty. He does not have to follow a set theology of man. No one can come to Christ now unless the Father draws him, according to Jesus, and God is entitled to draw whoever he wishes, even a physical nation en masse if he so chooses to His son. I hope that adequately answers your question, for I am not a scholar or theologian(and proud of it lol)
I will just make a general point in finishing. I do not come across people on the internet who change their minds about anything. They have studied endlessly, there is a comfort, and security in believing what you have studied so much and come to accept is the truth. Only an act of God could change such a persons entrenched view, it cannot be done by internet debate. To be willing to give up that comfort and security would be too hard a task to be done in internet debate.
Despite using the internet I am fully human, as I suspect you are too.
I was once comfortable and secure in an atheistic view of life, and "beat" many Christians in debates while traveling.
I was not internally as secure in my beliefs as I may have sounded however, and meditated privately on all the things that they told me.
None of those people would know now that they had a part in directing me towards Jesus.
I try not to adopt negative assumptions about what might be going on in the souls of people.
I agree with your posts and have enjoyed reading them. We have some contenders for the truth here but many are blinded by the false Replacement Theology, which keeps changing names to delude more people. It's a great pity to see you go. We could use more like you here.
Indeed the old had to be fulfilled in order for the new to come forth offering the eternal things he had long promised in the law and prophets
“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”
Isaiah 55:1, 3-4, 6-7 KJV
“God does what He promises to do.”
yes he does and this is my point maybe your tight maybe it’s willful blindness but you are correct GOD KEEPS HIS WORD
you seem to be willfully ignoring it though
“But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field. The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.
The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it. The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed. The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth. The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway: And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.
Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee: and they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.”
Deuteronomy 28:15-16, 20-21, 24-25, 33, 37, 45-46 KJV
God does keep his word . It’s just that you don’t seem to be able to acknowledge it was based on this
“And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:”
Deuteronomy 28:1 KJV
or this
“But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.”
Deuteronomy 28:15-16 KJV
you don’t seem to be able to read what it says instead you speak of unconditional promises that would require god to not keep his word
Sorry but in my opinion you don’t understand the covenants
Seems like some tend to believe they can yeah but naw biblically it tells us not a single word may be removed or added to Moses words in the old covenant lest all the curses come upon that individual who does alter it .
as it does in the New Testament make clear Christs words are forever and will judge all humanity whether they be a descendant of Jacob ( israel ) or whether they be a child of Abraham’s promise through Jesus Christ. Or even unbelievers all humanity .
just as Moses and the prophets foretold should come in Christ . It’s too bad they were blind and deaf to his word or they might have turned and repented but then again prophecy had to come to pass
“Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, and the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.”
Isaiah 6:10-12 KJV
“But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; That they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, And be converted, And I should heal them. These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.”
John 12:37-41
“I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.”
Isaiah 42:6-9, 18 KJV
“The word of the LORD also came unto me, saying, Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.
…….And they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall scatter them among the nations, and disperse them in the countries. But I will leave a few men of them from the sword, from the famine, and from the pestilence; that they may declare all their abominations among the heathen whither they come; and they shall know that I am the LORD.
……. and say unto the people of the land, Thus saith the Lord GOD of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and of the land of Israel; They shall eat their bread with carefulness, and drink their water with astonishment, that her land may be desolate from all that is therein, because of the violence of all them that dwell therein. And the cities that are inhabited shall be laid waste, and the land shall be desolate; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.”
Ezekiel 12:1-2, 15-16, 19-20 KJV
“And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest at any time they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And should understand with their heart, And should be converted, and I should heal them.”
Matthew 13:14-15 KJV
“Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord's doing, And it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
Matthew 21:42-43 KJV
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James456
Guest
then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. Deuteronomy30:3-6
mmhm back to where we began looking at the New Testament revelation and how god will fulfill it and who israel is
“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:
but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
Romans 9:6-8 KJV
In other words if I’m a flesh descendant of Jacob ( a child of Israel ) this doesn’t make mean I’m of isreal. This is what makes me a child of Abraham and hiers of Gods promises doesn’t matter who’s flesh and blood i descend from
“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. ( he was an isralite of Judah ) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Galatians 3:27-29 KJV
There’s no question Gods promises will be fulfilled as they always have been only in Christ Jesus though as long as israel rejects Jesus they won’t be blessed by God …..and if they do they will inherit gods kingdom promises in the New Testament and there’s no promises for any land on this earth there’s promises for a new earth and inheriting that though ……
they discounted what Jesus was saying
“Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.”
John 2:19-22 KJV
instead of counting Gods “ temple of David “raise up again tbey continued looking to a man made building that would fulfill it .
“And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.”
Revelation 21:22 KJV
and looked for other fulfillments
as we’ve been saying he promised to restore israel by sending the messiah to them with a new covenant …..
“And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; and killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”
Acts 3:12-26 KJV
As long as Israelites don’t accept Jesus and convert to Christianity they can’t be saved from the cirse of the old covenant how would he restore Israel and make them prosper ?
“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:”
Jeremiah 31:31-32 KJV
It’s the new covenant we should be looking at and it’s fer better promises and promised land
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James456
Guest
Seems like some tend to believe they can yeah but naw biblically it tells us not a single word may be removed or added to Moses words in the old covenant lest all the curses come upon that individual who does alter it . Deuteronomy30:3-6