Pre Trib or Post trib rapture?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The rapture according to 1. Thessalonians 4 takes place as someone else in the thread already pointed out when the resurrection takes place.
So, let put things together: If the resurrection takes place at the last day and the rapture takes place at the same time, then the rapture takes place at the last day.

But that makes no sense to me. If what you say is true then, one is taken one left behind left bwhind to where and where do we go if we are then taken and left somebehind?

Are you saying, the rapture happens before God's wrath is poured out?
Or are you saying that the rapture happens after God's wrath has been poured out?
 
Everything we need is in scripture. There is no other authority. Anything beyond that is gnosticism (secret knowledge).

I had Jesus walk through the wall into my room and talk to me audibly. I did not get to see Him but I knew He was there as soon as He walked in. The atmosphere changed. When Jesus walks in everybody knows it! No wonder people would manifest evil spirits when Jesus came along in scripture, now I know! And what is sort of weirder is, when He began to speak to me, I recognized His voice right away! I knew it was Jesus. And scripture says my sheep know my voice, and I did lol! Now., what He told me is not in scripture. So, He can not lie, so I must be lying?

Brother, there's a lot of truth inbetween Sunday School and Gnosticism that isnt in scripture but very much so is the truth. Ok parts of it have been, fairly Twilight Zone as compared to the ultra safe position you have taken, and that's ok.

Dont take my word for anything! Go read it yourself and see. All I can do is tell you what happened to me. God does a lot of stuff not in scripture. No one can tell Him No!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eli1
So, now you are the one believing in salvation through works. Nobody enters the kingdom of God, because they were saved through there works.

The solution to this seeming contradiction lies in the letters you quote yourself:

Ephesians 2:10:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

Titus 2:11-15:
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
instructing us, to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world;
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works.
These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

It is part of the New Testament teaching, that your works must align, if you are saved through God's grace to be one of his Children.
You will know them by their fruits, remember?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not at all do I believe works saved anyone. Did not the goats enter eternal fire for not doing works??

For a christian in this age worthy works brings rewards but for those in the Tribulation who help those fleeing the antichrist works make them worthy
 
I had Jesus walk through the wall into my room and talk to me audibly. I did not get to see Him but I knew He was there as soon as He walked in. The atmosphere changed. When Jesus walks in everybody knows it! No wonder people would manifest evil spirits when Jesus came along in scripture, now I know! And what is sort of weirder is, when He began to speak to me, I recognized His voice right away! I knew it was Jesus. And scripture says my sheep know my voice, and I did lol! Now., what He told me is not in scripture. So, He can not lie, so I must be lying?

Brother, there's a lot of truth inbetween Sunday School and Gnosticism that isnt in scripture but very much so is the truth. Ok parts of it have been, fairly Twilight Zone as compared to the ultra safe position you have taken, and that's ok.

Dont take my word for anything! Go read it yourself and see. All I can do is tell you what happened to me. God does a lot of stuff not in scripture. No one can tell Him No!!
Grace and Peace.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Edward429451
Not three questions. Only two. Second question is a two-part question; nonetheless, it is one question. A total of two questions.
Nope.
3 questions were asked unless some doctrine needs help.
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not at all do I believe works saved anyone. Did not the goats enter eternal fire for not doing works??

For a christian in this age worthy works brings rewards but for those in the Tribulation who help those fleeing the antichrist works make them worthy

So you are telling me, that in the tribulation God changes his mind on mankind and than they suddenly can be saved by works?
If people could be saved by works, than Jesus Christ died in vain.
You are literally teaching a works-based salvation against the gospel.

In Matthew 25 Jesus Christ characterizes the two groups by what they have done or not done to him.
 
So you are telling me, that in the tribulation God changes his mind on mankind and than they suddenly can be saved by works?
If people could be saved by works, than Jesus Christ died in vain.
You are literally teaching a works-based salvation against the gospel.

In Matthew 25 Jesus Christ characterizes the two groups by what they have done or not done to him.

Was Jesus in prison?? Did you ever see Jesus where food was denied him??

Was Jesus ever naked?? Needing clothes

Was Jesus ever sick needing help??

Need to do your homework
 
Was Jesus in prison?? Did you ever see Jesus where food was denied him??

Was Jesus ever naked?? Needing clothes

Was Jesus ever sick needing help??

Need to do your homework

It's in the text:

Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.


I honestly didn't think, that clarification was needed for that.
 
It's in the text:

Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.


I honestly didn't think, that clarification was needed for that.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you really want to enter the wrath of God??

and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.


For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Jesus breaks down the timing a little bit in Matthew 24. In verse 3-31 He's talking about the 2nd coming/last day right before the 1000 years. They had asked Him 3 questions and He answered them.

Then Jesus said let's talk about something else in verse 32 so from Matt 24:32-51 Jesus is talking about the rapture.

Verse 32:
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:.../KJV

and then Jesus told them all about the rapture because that is important for those with ears to hear. But it isnt the same day as the last day. We are not appointed unto wrath so it is pretrib to be nice to His Bride. Jesus has a big heart and wont let His Bride experience the same things as those inflicted upon unbelievers!

He said I will come when you least expect it...right? When do you least expect Him? Pre Trib? Interesting....

Matth 24:32-51 Jesus is talking about the rapture? Indeed, yet he is still talking about his return:

Matth 24:37:
And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you really want to enter the wrath of God??

and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.


For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

It's not about whether I want to enter the tribulation or not. Obviously I do not want to enter God's wrath and I am not under his wrath.

1. Thessalonicher 1:10:
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, who delivereth us from the wrath to come.

For me this verse is speaking about the wrath on judgement day. If you read about the judgement in Matth 25, it is obviously wrath, that the ones have to suffer, who are not of his sheep.
 
Revelations

Revelation 6:16
They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

Revelation 6:17
For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”


they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Revelation 15:1
Seven Angels With Seven Plagues
I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.

Revelation 15:7
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.

Revelation 16:1
The Seven Bowls of God’s Wrath
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.”

Samples of God's wrath throughout the Tribulation
 
Because it was a mystery before!



First of all not everyone will be taken in the rapture. Two in the field one taken one left and all that. You remember that? So some who are not ready get left behind. If you think about it, that proves pretrib rapture right there. I mean if some get left behind and it is after the great trib but before God's wrath, then, God has given them up? Left behind for what? Until when? After the wrath?! Surely you jest Brother! For God so loved the world he gave His son so that none need to perish and all could have eternal life. No one can snatch me from His hand so that would not make sense. The rapture is pretrib.

Last day is last day to me.

The ones left behind are not christians on whom God has given up. They are the lost, who rejected him in this understanding.
Left behind for where they will be sent according to Jesus Christ in Matth 25.
 
I have a question to all supporters of the pretribview: If a doctrine is not found in the early church history, is it likely false?
When it is not accepted in the church before the nineteenth century, then it’s definitely false, right?

The only source from a supposed church father, that is always quoted in support of it, is a quote from a sermon by the so-called Pseudo-Ephraim.

The writing exists in different versions. The syriac version does not even have the „pretrib“-quote in that form, but even if you take the latin version it is not even teaching pretribulational rapture.

See this section:
Whenever therefore the earth is agitated by the nations, people will hide themselves from the wars in the mountains and rocks, by caves and caverns of the earth, by graves and memorials of the dead, and there, as they waste away gradually by fear, they draw breath, because there is not any place at all to flee, but there will be concession and intolerable pressure. And those who are in the east will flee to the west, and moreover, those who are in the west shall flee to the east, and there is not a safer place anywhere, because the world shall be overwhelmed by worthless nations, whose aspect appears to be of wild animals more than that of men. Because those very much horrible nations, most profane and most defiled, who do not spare lives, and shall destroy the living from the dead, shall consume the dead, they eat dead flesh, they drink the blood of beasts, they pollute the world, contaminate all things, and the one who is able to resist them is not there. In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them.


This passage vividly describes the tribulation. Why are the christians still on earth? Or should I say: Why on earth (are they still on earth)?
And that’s a passage, that comes way below the supposed „pretrib“-quote.

If a teaching is true it should have been part of the teaching of the church since the very first century and not the eighth and not even the source from the eighth century teaches it.
From my understanding it was never widely known or spread before a young woman supposedly had a vision about it and Mr. John Nelson Darby picked it up and made it popular in the nineteenth century.

Now this whole argument is very easy to refute, if the pretrib-rapture is a real thing. Just quote christian authors teaching the pretrib rapture earlier than let’s say 1400 or even 1800, although there can be found two catholics, who taught it in the time of the reformation in defence of the Pope.
Irenaeus believed the sacrament was deity.
Are you also saying that is true?
 
Irenaeus believed the sacrament was deity.
Are you also saying that is true?

John 6:63:
It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life.

No, I do not believe, that the bread and the wine literally transform into the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ.

That's not my point though. A major teaching like a pretribulational rapture should be present in the writings of the early church even if contested, but it should be there.
How can it not be in the church?
The christian teaching was completed with the New Testament scriptures, the whole teaching was there, completed, finished.
It is not possible for new teachings to arise in the nineteenth century and be true.

As a sidenote: Can you prove, that Irenaeus believed that? Because I have seen an article, where it is argued, that he did in fact not mean that.
 
Matth 24:32-51 Jesus is talking about the rapture? Indeed, yet he is still talking about his return:

Matth 24:37:
And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

He is not, keep reading!

Matthew 24: 39-41
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.../KJV

It starts with the change of subject in verse 32, now let's learn the parable of the fig tree. He changed the subject to the rapture. WHen the fig tree sprouts leaves this is the generation which will see Jesus return. Well the fig tree stands for Israel and Israel sprouted leaves May 14th 1948 when it became a nation again.
 
The ones left behind are not christians on whom God has given up. They are the lost, who rejected him in this understanding.
Left behind for where they will be sent according to Jesus Christ in Matth 25.

So they lost their salvation?