Pre Trib or Post trib rapture?

[GaryA]

Jimmy Evans is a well known preacher who used to preach post trib rapture. He's changed his point of view. In this 25 minute video, he explains why.

Statements he makes in the video that are not true:

"The tribulation is the Wrath of God."
"This is the beginning of the tribulation." (referring to Revelation 6:12-17)
"The seal judgments begin the tribulation period of time."
"One fourth of mankind killed at the very beginning of the tribulation."
"They are saying 'peace and safety' when the rapture happens."
"...'stand before the son of man' is the rapture of the church."
"Jesus told us that the rapture would occur before the tribulation."

The main/major assumption that "The tribulation is the Wrath of God." throws him off completely concerning various aspects of End Times prophecy.

His alignment of parts of End Times prophecy is incorrect.

 

[Gideon300]

Statements he makes in the video that are not true:

"The tribulation is the Wrath of God."
"This is the beginning of the tribulation." (referring to Revelation 6:12-17)
"The seal judgments begin the tribulation period of time."
"One fourth of mankind killed at the very beginning of the tribulation."
"They are saying 'peace and safety' when the rapture happens."
"...'stand before the son of man' is the rapture of the church."
"Jesus told us that the rapture would occur before the tribulation."

The main/major assumption that "The tribulation is the Wrath of God." throws him off completely concerning various aspects of End Times prophecy.

His alignment of parts of End Times prophecy is incorrect.

What do you claim the tribulation to be?

 

[GaryA]

Mat 24 alone has 2 comings.
Rev14:14 has yet another coming.

No - all the same singular coming.

Denying verses is not the high ground.

Neither is twisting verses into different meanings.

 

[GaryA]

I know what he's talking about.

Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?.../KJV

They ask Jesus 3 questions. In verses 4 through 31 Jesus answers them and he finishes in verse 31

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other..../KJV

And then Jesus keeps on talking and says let's talk about something else starting in verse 32

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:.../KJV

Jesus finished answering what they asked about His 2nd coming and Jesus starts talking about the rapture if you read the rest of the chapter. Jesus changed the subject and most people gloss over that because they dont know Greek or are stoned or something. Jesus answered all 3 questions and then says lets learn something else...!!! See it?

Not three questions. Only two. Second question is a two-part question; nonetheless, it is one question. A total of two questions.

 

[Lemuel]

I agree with you. We have to take things step by step.

When do you think the antichrist will be revealed and the great tribulation starts. I use these two markers to start counting down to the Lord's return to us.

Looking at current events and technology available now, I'm estimating a guess at all this happening in the 2030s after th EU's elections in 2029.

I don't try to guess or estimate dates of certain events, that were prophecied. I don't think it is useful or necessary, although you are right in that we should pay attention to the signs of the times according to Jesus.
I think more important is to understand the teaching of the New Testament and not to twist it, for example when Paul says "Don't worry, the day of the Lord is not yet here, because the antichrist hasn't been revealed yet." Somebody alreay quoted that passage from 2. Thessalonians 2.
In the words of Mr. Evans "it doesn't get clearer than that".
Paul says "You can not have missed the day of the Lord, because the Antichrist wasn't here yet, don't you remember?" So why are we still discussing, about being raptured away before that? It contradicts the clear teaching of the New Testament, which is clear to those, who look at it without prejudice led by the desire to understand it and the Holy Spirit.

There are no two comings of Jesus Christ, neither in the endtime-sermon of Jesus nor in the writings of Paul. It's just not in there.

 

[Lemuel]

I have a question to all supporters of the pretribview: If a doctrine is not found in the early church history, is it likely false?
When it is not accepted in the church before the nineteenth century, then it’s definitely false, right?

The only source from a supposed church father, that is always quoted in support of it, is a quote from a sermon by the so-called Pseudo-Ephraim.

The writing exists in different versions. The syriac version does not even have the „pretrib“-quote in that form, but even if you take the latin version it is not even teaching pretribulational rapture.

See this section:
Whenever therefore the earth is agitated by the nations, people will hide themselves from the wars in the mountains and rocks, by caves and caverns of the earth, by graves and memorials of the dead, and there, as they waste away gradually by fear, they draw breath, because there is not any place at all to flee, but there will be concession and intolerable pressure. And those who are in the east will flee to the west, and moreover, those who are in the west shall flee to the east, and there is not a safer place anywhere, because the world shall be overwhelmed by worthless nations, whose aspect appears to be of wild animals more than that of men. Because those very much horrible nations, most profane and most defiled, who do not spare lives, and shall destroy the living from the dead, shall consume the dead, they eat dead flesh, they drink the blood of beasts, they pollute the world, contaminate all things, and the one who is able to resist them is not there. In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them.


This passage vividly describes the tribulation. Why are the christians still on earth? Or should I say: Why on earth (are they still on earth)?
And that’s a passage, that comes way below the supposed „pretrib“-quote.

If a teaching is true it should have been part of the teaching of the church since the very first century and not the eighth and not even the source from the eighth century teaches it.
From my understanding it was never widely known or spread before a young woman supposedly had a vision about it and Mr. John Nelson Darby picked it up and made it popular in the nineteenth century.

Now this whole argument is very easy to refute, if the pretrib-rapture is a real thing. Just quote christian authors teaching the pretrib rapture earlier than let’s say 1400 or even 1800, although there can be found two catholics, who taught it in the time of the reformation in defence of the Pope.

 

[Edward429451]

I have a question to all supporters of the pretribview: If a doctrine is not found in the early church history, is it likely false?
When it is not accepted in the church before the nineteenth century, then it’s definitely false, right?

If a doctrine is not in early church history, that doesnt mean it is false.

Behold I show you a mystery...

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed..../KJV

So, Behold I shew you a mystery means, hey you never heard this before, but that dont mean that it is false! He just happens to be talking about the rapture too. Huh.

Need more? Ok.

First a wee question. Do you believe that He has made us Kings & Priests? I expect so, it's in there. SO in that context:

Proverbs 25:2
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter..../KJV

Does that make sense to you?

 

[Lemuel]

If a doctrine is not in early church history, that doesnt mean it is false.

Behold I show you a mystery...

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed..../KJV

So, Behold I shew you a mystery means, hey you never heard this before, but that dont mean that it is false! He just happens to be talking about the rapture too. Huh.

Need more? Ok.

First a wee question. Do you believe that He has made us Kings & Priests? I expect so, it's in there. SO in that context:

Proverbs 25:2
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter..../KJV

Does that make sense to you?

1. Corinthias 15 talks about the resurrection of the believers. There's no mention of a pretribulational rapture with any word.
Let's ask the teacher, Jesus Christ, when the resurrection of the believers will take place:

John 6:54:
He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now, the question is: Is the last day two days before the last day? Is the last day maybe a year before the last day? Is the last day maybe seven years before the last day?
When could the last day be? Maybe the last day could be the last day?
Wouldn't that be astonishing?

The second part absolutaly makes sense to me. We can search out matters.

 

[Edward429451]

1. Corinthias 15 talks about the resurrection of the believers. There's no mention of a pretribulational rapture with any word.

Because it was a mystery before!

John 6:54:
He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now, the question is: Is the last day two days before the last day? Is the last day maybe a year before the last day? Is the last day maybe seven years before the last day?
When could the last day be? Maybe the last day could be the last day?
Wouldn't that be astonishing?

First of all not everyone will be taken in the rapture. Two in the field one taken one left and all that. You remember that? So some who are not ready get left behind. If you think about it, that proves pretrib rapture right there. I mean if some get left behind and it is after the great trib but before God's wrath, then, God has given them up? Left behind for what? Until when? After the wrath?! Surely you jest Brother! For God so loved the world he gave His son so that none need to perish and all could have eternal life. No one can snatch me from His hand so that would not make sense. The rapture is pretrib.

Last day is last day to me.

 

[Lemuel]

So, now I don't understand you. You quote verses from 1. Corinthians 15 as proof of Paul speaking about the rapture, but then you agree, that it is not mentioning a rapture and you also agree, that the described resurrection takes place at the last day, which is the last day and not the last day before seven years before the last day.

The rapture according to 1. Thessalonians 4 takes place as someone else in the thread already pointed out when the resurrection takes place.
So, let put things together: If the resurrection takes place at the last day and the rapture takes place at the same time, then the rapture takes place at the last day.

Now, let's answer the second part:
Jesus teaches, that when he returns, the saints, who are the believers, will be gathered to be with him forever.
What awaits the others, who are not taken to be with him? Just follow the sermon, until you arrive at the point, where Jesus answers that question: Matthew 24:31-46.

 

[NightTwister]

If a doctrine is not in early church history, that doesnt mean it is false.

Behold I show you a mystery...

We also need to be careful not to venture into gnosticism.

 

[Lemuel]

So, now I don't understand you. You quote verses from 1. Corinthians 15 as proof of Paul speaking about the rapture, but then you agree, that it is not mentioning a rapture and you also agree, that the described resurrection takes place at the last day, which is the last day and not the last day before seven years before the last day.

The rapture according to 1. Thessalonians 4 takes place as someone else in the thread already pointed out when the resurrection takes place.
So, let put things together: If the resurrection takes place at the last day and the rapture takes place at the same time, then the rapture takes place at the last day.

Now, let's answer the second part:
Jesus teaches, that when he returns, the saints, who are the believers, will be gathered to be with him forever.
What awaits the others, who are not taken to be with him? Just follow the sermon, until you arrive at the point, where Jesus answers that question: Matthew 24:31-46.

Sorry, it's meant to be: Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[Edward429451]

We also need to be careful not to venture into gnosticism.

I'm not scared, lol. Scripture says in the last days knowledge will be increased. Certainly that includes knowledge about God.

Let me ask this, is there any truths anywhere that are not written down in God's letter to us, His word, and real truths? Or do you expect everything to be explicitly stated in scripture?

Is God allowed to hide some stuff from us? Most of it is you know! It takes real work to seek after the Lord. But it's not all in scripture. He waits until the season is right to reveal things to us. So for that reason you cant say, show me in scripture because those guys are totally missing the entire point. It isnt about doctrine, that's all carnal. Knowledge and Jesus told us to not rely on our understanding or lean on it but that indeed the time will come and is here to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. And in spirit means relationship with the Lord. Reality is that God is a spirit and we are fashioned in His likeness so we are spirit. How do I do that? Believe. You are saved His Spirit is with you. He is inside you. He is beside you. He is our rear guard and He's always on point. There's one catch. We must invite Him and then He may reveal Himself to be there and real or He may not! He is the friend which sticks closer than a Brother! You have to believe that your best friend is with you! Don't ignore Him, talk to Him! Ask Him which way to turn?! If you invite the Lord with you everyday something magical happens. You talk to Him so much that you start to be able to hear Him. The Creator of the Universe is my bodyguard! That's a good feeling. But we left the Bible at home to spend time with Jesus Himself! So, let us be careful not to fall to White Picket Fence Christianity. It's a lot different for real than what they taught us in Sunday School as a kid.

 

[Lemuel]

Have you reached higher grounds than the apostle Paul himself?

1. Corinthians 2:3-5:
And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
And my speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1. Corinthians 4:6:
Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.

The question of pre- vs- posttribulation rapture is not a question of your spiritual walk with the Lord. It's a question of what the bible teaches.

 

[Omegatime]

Sorry, it's meant to be: Matthew 25:31-46.

--------------------------------------------
I count your thinking as foolishness. You wish to be saved by works and not by the gift of God by faith.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.

 

[Lemuel]

--------------------------------------------
I count your thinking as foolishness. You wish to be saved by works and not by the gift of God by faith.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.

Do you count the passage I quoted as foolishness?

You don't even know me. I trust soly in the grace of my Lord Jesus Christ, who made himself a sacrifice for our sins, for my salvation.

 

[Omegatime]

Do you count the passage I quoted as foolishness?

You don't even know me. I trust soly in the grace of my Lord Jesus Christ, who made himself a sacrifice for our sins, for my salvation.

---------------------------------------
Then why do you quote the sheep/goat judgement for these were saved by works only to enter the kingdom of God

 

[Edward429451]

So, now I don't understand you. You quote verses from 1. Corinthians 15 as proof of Paul speaking about the rapture, but then you agree, that it is not mentioning a rapture and you also agree, that the described resurrection takes place at the last day, which is the last day and not the last day before seven years before the last day.

Jesus breaks down the timing a little bit in Matthew 24. In verse 3-31 He's talking about the 2nd coming/last day right before the 1000 years. They had asked Him 3 questions and He answered them.

Then Jesus said let's talk about something else in verse 32 so from Matt 24:32-51 Jesus is talking about the rapture.

Verse 32:
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:.../KJV

and then Jesus told them all about the rapture because that is important for those with ears to hear. But it isnt the same day as the last day. We are not appointed unto wrath so it is pretrib to be nice to His Bride. Jesus has a big heart and wont let His Bride experience the same things as those inflicted upon unbelievers!

He said I will come when you least expect it...right? When do you least expect Him? Pre Trib? Interesting....

 

[NightTwister]

I'm not scared, lol. Scripture says in the last days knowledge will be increased. Certainly that includes knowledge about God.

Let me ask this, is there any truths anywhere that are not written down in God's letter to us, His word, and real truths? Or do you expect everything to be explicitly stated in scripture?

The Bible is God’s Word for us. It was written by human authors, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Bible is a witness to the acts of God among his people, and centers on the person and work of Jesus. It is the inspired word of God and the authority on all matters of faith.

Is God allowed to hide some stuff from us? Most of it is you know! It takes real work to seek after the Lord. But it's not all in scripture. He waits until the season is right to reveal things to us. So for that reason you cant say, show me in scripture because those guys are totally missing the entire point. It isnt about doctrine, that's all carnal. Knowledge and Jesus told us to not rely on our understanding or lean on it but that indeed the time will come and is here to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. And in spirit means relationship with the Lord. Reality is that God is a spirit and we are fashioned in His likeness so we are spirit. How do I do that? Believe. You are saved His Spirit is with you. He is inside you. He is beside you. He is our rear guard and He's always on point. There's one catch. We must invite Him and then He may reveal Himself to be there and real or He may not! He is the friend which sticks closer than a Brother! You have to believe that your best friend is with you! Don't ignore Him, talk to Him! Ask Him which way to turn?! If you invite the Lord with you everyday something magical happens. You talk to Him so much that you start to be able to hear Him. The Creator of the Universe is my bodyguard! That's a good feeling. But we left the Bible at home to spend time with Jesus Himself! So, let us be careful not to fall to White Picket Fence Christianity. It's a lot different for real than what they taught us in Sunday School as a kid.

Everything we need is in scripture. There is no other authority. Anything beyond that is gnosticism (secret knowledge).

 

[Lemuel]

---------------------------------------
Then why do you quote the sheep/goat judgement for these were saved by works only to enter the kingdom of God

So, now you are the one believing in salvation through works. Nobody enters the kingdom of God, because they were saved through there works.

The solution to this seeming contradiction lies in the letters you quote yourself:

Ephesians 2:10:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

Titus 2:11-15:
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
instructing us, to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world;
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works.
These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

It is part of the New Testament teaching, that your works must align, if you are saved through God's grace to be one of his Children.
You will know them by their fruits, remember?