It's actually very easy to show that with scripture too! But the problem seems to be the post tribbers are unteachable?
Pre Trib or Post trib rapture?
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It's actually very easy to show that with scripture too! But the problem seems to be the post tribbers are unteachable?
It will be interesting.
I know the liberals are going to hate Jesus because He will rule with an iron hand. He won't let them get away with their sleazy tactics. The Republicans won't be crazy about Him either - He probably won't approve certain tax shelters for rich people to hide their money so they dont pay their fair share of taxes.
It will also be a lot of fun to acclimate our brothers and sisters in Christ who grew in the past to the modern machines and technology we have!
Now I'm up to Daniel 8 in your post. NIV transla5es it this way for easier understanding:
Daniel 8:23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.
Verse 24 is very important to remember! If Christians don't know this verse, they might not realize that God is permitting this and instead will think God is beating up His Bride and then fall away.
For those who do know this verse, this is why we have to build our faith up now so that when we face the ac's persecution, our faith won't fail.
Verse 25 says the ac WILL BE DESTROYED BUT NOT BY HUMAN HANDS. it doesn't say it directly, but Jesus will be the one to destroy him. Also indirectly, is that we shouldn’t try to assassinate him.
Dietrich Bonnhoeffer, a prominant German pastor took matters into his own hands and was inxolved in one of the many failed assassination attempts on Hitler. He was arrested and hanged four days before WWII ended. He never got to see his beloved Germany free of Hitler.
So trust Jesus, that He will return, not only to collect us, but also to destroy the ac!
I will cover more of your post the next time!
Now I'm up to Daniel 8 in your post. NIV transla5es it this way for easier understanding:
Daniel 8:23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.
Verse 24 is very important to remember! If Christians don't know this verse, they might not realize that God is permitting this and instead will think God is beating up His Bride and then fall away.
For those who do know this verse, this is why we have to build our faith up now so that when we face the ac's persecution, our faith won't fail.
Verse 25 says the ac WILL BE DESTROYED BUT NOT BY HUMAN HANDS. it doesn't say it directly, but Jesus will be the one to destroy him. Also indirectly, is that we shouldn’t try to assassinate him.
Dietrich Bonnhoeffer, a prominant German pastor took matters into his own hands and was inxolved in one of the many failed assassination attempts on Hitler. He was arrested and hanged four days before WWII ended. He never got to see his beloved Germany free of Hitler.
So trust Jesus, that He will return, not only to collect us, but also to destroy the ac!
I will cover more of your post the next time!
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
When the antichrist persecutes the saints they are not to fight back for then they are behaving like the world that fight physically for their beliefs.
Which is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Jesus will destroy the antichrist.
And any attempt we would have to assassinate the antichrist would not happen for God is allowing him to rule so we could not thwart it.
And it is a sin to think that for he is a human.
Dietrich Bonnhoeffer, a prominant German pastor took matters into his own hands and was inxolved in one of the many failed assassination attempts on Hitler. He was arrested and hanged four days before WWII ended. He never got to see his beloved Germany free of Hitler.
I believe Daniel 11 tells of the power struggle to control the earth.
Dan 11:19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.
Hitler committed suicide.
So he had to be because he is in prophecy to his end.
So no one could assassinate him.
I am kind of sure it is Hitler in this verse who wanted control of the world and of the occult like the antichrist.
Dan 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
The antichrist.
Some people think this is referred to in the 2nd century but it is not.
For Daniel was talking about the future and the end time.
And starts at Babylon and forward not talking before it.
Which chapter 11 starts at the Medes which comes after Babylon and ends at the antichrist.
Adolf Hitler actively sought to establish a "Thousand year Reich (Tausendjähriges Reich) as a cornerstone of Nazi propaganda and ideology.
Proclaimed in 1934, this vision aimed to create a lasting, racially pure empire that would endure for a millennium.
Hitler being in the there would make sense.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
After it talks about the last person it says it is the time of trouble that has not been on earth before.
And the time of Israel's deliverance and the resurrection.
So the last person is the antichrist who is the vile person who shall obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand.
Craft
mirmâh
meer-maw'
From H7411 in the sense of deceiving; fraud: - craft, deceit (-ful, -fully), false, feigned, guile, subtilly, treachery.
Very good post! When do you think the antichrist will be revealed and the great tribulation starts?
Very good post! When do you think the antichrist will be revealed and the great tribulation starts?
The antichrist will negotiate peace in the Middle East resulting in a peace treaty for 7 years which will impact the world for they chose sides.
And cause the nations to work for peace.
Which if anyone is hesitant the elites nations that are part of the plan will scare the hesitant nations for the power is too great.
But I do not think any nation will be hesitant.
Although the religion of Islam will rebel later when they know what is unfolding with the antichrist's agenda that is contrary to Islam and stopping them from preaching their religion.
The antichrist will push his agenda for 3.5 years to prepare the world to follow him when he claims to be God and to embrace his system.
Then all who oppose his system will be persecuted the tribulation for 3.5 years.
So we will know who the antichrist is when he negotiates peace in the Middle East.
Which he will do what no other person could do, be considered a great man of peace, become popular, and the biggest player on the world scene.
Dan 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
I made a mistake here.
For I said some people believe the vile person happened in the second century.
But I said that Daniel spoke of the future starting with Babylon and not before it.
And chapter 11 starts with the Medes which is after Babylon to the antichrist.
But the 2nd century is after the Medes.
When I read 175 AD my mind was thinking it was an old date before Babylon not giving it much thought.
But it is still speaking of the antichrist for during his time the resurrection happens.
And Hitler is still there.
For while it starts at the Medes forward it is going to speak mainly about the end time.
Because the nations and kingdoms starting with the Medes had no chance at obtaining the kingdom because technology was not that advanced.
Not a snowball's chance in a hot place.
They would never advance that far, and did not even know the entirety of the world, and if they did they would not be able to defeat the world.
But Hitler was at the time of technology with the weapons, knowing the extent of the world, and could have a strategic advantage far superior than bigger kingdoms in the past.
And more advanced technology today available to the antichrist.
Do you have specific years in mind?
My guess is that the revealing of the antichrist and the beginning of the great tribulation is in the 2030s, after EU's elections in 2029.
️I think children who haven't reached the age of accountability will still be free of the mark since they have no ability to make that decision on their own, plus they don't work and earn money anyway.
They'll be the unrighteous going into the millennial age. So that means we continue to share the gospel in the next age to them.
I understand the sentiment, but according to Rom. 1, Gentiles have a conscience, knowing right and wrong even without the law, therefore they have no excuse. I wish children were excluded, but that's not indicated in the Scripture.
Do you have specific years in mind?
My guess is that the revealing of the antichrist and the beginning of the great tribulation is in the 2030s, after EU's elections in 2029.
That makes sense the tribulation is in the 2030's since the 7 years period has not started yet.
I do not think it will happen in the 2040's.
United Nations Agenda 21 for the 21st century which is a sustainability act.
They want to move all people in to the cities, and no development can happen outside city limits, and the people are the police force.
They want to give the people a microchip under the skin linked to satellite like a GPS tracking system for humans.
They can watch the people, and know their location, and if a crime happens they will know who was in the area, and how close they were to the crime scene.
This will cut out judges, lawyers, and the now known police force.
All information about the person will be on the chip including finances for it is the one world economic system.
I know some people do not know if this is true but it is what the United Nations wants.
It will be the beast's solution to reduce crime which would do that drastically for people will know they cannot get away with crime.
If they commit a crime and run they are tracking them.
If they go in to a store to supply their needs the chip will be inoperable and the doors will lock.
They will be shunned and an outcast of the city.
And who knows the punishment with the people of the city being the police force.
Which might be harsh to further prevent crime.
They want it to be enforced in 2030 which is Agenda 30.
The 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development is a United Nations plan serving as a global blueprint for peace and prosperity for people and the planet.
It aims to end poverty, protect the environment, and ensure universal human rights by 2030 through 17 Sustainable Development Goals
Agenda 21 and Agenda 30 (Sustainable Development Goals) are directly connected, with Agenda 2030 serving as a continuation and expansion of the principles established in Agenda 21.
Agenda 30 for peace and prosperity in 2030.
Agenda 21 move people to the cities which new ones will probably be built or modified by a gutting process many things not being needed.
And given a microchip to further provide peace and prosperity.
That is probably why big chains are closing a lot of their stores for they will not need them.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
chi xi stigma
khee xee stig'-ma
The 22nd, 14th and an obsolete letter (G4742 as a cross) of the Greek alphabet (intermediate between the 5th and 6th), used as numbers; denoting respectively 600, 60 and 6; 666 as a numeral: - six hundred threescore and six.
stigma
stig'-mah
From a primary word στίζω stizō (to “stick”, that is, prick); a mark incised or punched (for recognition of ownership), that is, (figuratively) scar of service: - mark.
The mark of the beast is something stuck under something and since it is given to a person it is stuck under their skin.
The antichrist's agenda is there is no personal God to help mankind but their technology can help them to deter crime, and have peace.
China is actively continuing a long-term, state-led initiative to move hundreds of millions of rural residents into cities to modernize the economy and increase urbanization, which reached roughly 67% by late 2024.
China is actively preparing cities to accommodate a massive influx of residents as part of a long-term, state-led urbanization strategy.
China has a lot of people and moving on it now.
The League of Nations operated from January 10, 1920 to April 1946 to work for peace on earth.
The United Nations started October 24, 1945 until now to work for peace on earth.
With all that time the nations might want a one world government now.
And the conflicts could be to make it look like all things are happening by coincidence and not a plan which would scare the people if they did not have a real good reason to come together.
For then they would think it is a power move to control the people of the world.
And not coming together for the peace and safety of people.
To scare the people of the world that terrible wars could happen.
Threat of nuclear war that could devastate the world for the nations would divide themselves in to 2 great big groups that could clash.
So they can scare the people of the world to accept a one world government for peace.
For they cannot do anything if 7 billion people say forget that.
So they have to scare them that it is the best thing to do.
When the antichrist starts working in the world they will be moving people to the cities and 3.5 years later they will be in the cities ready to implement the microchip on them.
Which the people will not have a problem with being moved to the cities if it means peace and sustainability.
And if they have a problem with the microchip when the world is moved in to the cities by the end of the 3.5 years they will not care about taking the microchip.
For they are following the antichrist and his solution for peace.
United Nations Agenda 21.
Yeah, I've heard about the globalists wanting to move everyone to cities so they can control them better, but I don't know how they will do that with ALL the people in the world.
A lot of people are getting killed in conflicts though - the globalists want to vastly reduce the population of the entjre world. They of course don't consider themselves a candidate for extinction...
Do you think the globalists will be able to move everone in the world to the cities completely by the 2030s? I don't think they will because the Bible says not all the Christians in the world will get killed. That means some of them will be able to flee to the wilderness, away from the cities and God will help them survive.
I grew up and lived in New York City for most of my life. I don't regret haxing lived there, but I've already had my fill of city livng. I hope they don't succeed in moving everyone to the cities.
Also your description of the control the globalists will have over those who take the mark of the beast sounds really awful and suffocating. It just gives me even MORE incentive not to take the mark. I'd rather get executed and go home to Jesus.
I also watched the video too. She was pretty astute to call these cities "concentration camps." I don't know if her organization will be able to win their suit, but I'm going to pray for all of them to get saved. It's really admirable as secular people recognizing some things the globalists are working on as detrimental to society.
Two signs that was given by the Lord's coming again is near
1. Sun to darkness and moon to blood red. Acts 2
2. “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful Day of the Lord comes. Malachi 4:5
1. Sun to darkness and moon to blood red. Acts 2
2. “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful Day of the Lord comes. Malachi 4:5
----------------------------------I believe the rapture will happen on the day of the second coming of the LORD Jesus..
Correct and that day is called the Day of the Lord.
See Post #90
L
Lemuel
Guest
The rapture is never mentioned separately from the second glorious coming of Jesus Christ, that comes with the final judgement for this world as described for example by Jesus himself as the separation of mankind into the two groups goats and sheep.
I don’t believe in the pretribulational rapture for the simple reason, that it is not taught neither by Jesus nor by Paul nor in any other epistle.
Paul says in one instance that his goal was to teach the entire counsel of God, so why does he never say straight forward „The rapture will take place before the great tribulation.“? Why would he hide it between the lines, if his goal was to teach the whole plan of God? Was he trying to hide it?
We wouldn’t even be talking about the great tribulation without the end-time sermon of Jesus Christ and if you read it, it’s plain and simple: The rapture is part of the second coming of Christ, which takes place at the end of the tribulation.
Now I want to answer to some of the things Mr. Evans says in the posted video:
If you are telling me I’m going through the tribulation, basically it’s a death sentence and we are not protected. […] There is no protection for believers in the tribulation.
[...]
He would say (meaning Jesus) „You will go through this things and pray that you’ll be strong enough to endure. He never said that.“
This is actually exactly, what Jesus prophecies for his followers:
Then shall they deliver you up unto tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for my name’s sake.
And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.
And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.
But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
I consider myself a beginner concerning the book of Daniel and the book of revelation, but for me it is clear as day, that there’s no room for pretribulational rapture, because Jesus and Paul taught posttribulational rapture.
As a sidenote: The rapture itself is never the main focus, but it’s the second coming of Jesus Christ. We could also say instead of „rapture“ „the gathering of the saints at the return of Jesus“.
I don’t believe in the pretribulational rapture for the simple reason, that it is not taught neither by Jesus nor by Paul nor in any other epistle.
Paul says in one instance that his goal was to teach the entire counsel of God, so why does he never say straight forward „The rapture will take place before the great tribulation.“? Why would he hide it between the lines, if his goal was to teach the whole plan of God? Was he trying to hide it?
We wouldn’t even be talking about the great tribulation without the end-time sermon of Jesus Christ and if you read it, it’s plain and simple: The rapture is part of the second coming of Christ, which takes place at the end of the tribulation.
Now I want to answer to some of the things Mr. Evans says in the posted video:
If you are telling me I’m going through the tribulation, basically it’s a death sentence and we are not protected. […] There is no protection for believers in the tribulation.
[...]
He would say (meaning Jesus) „You will go through this things and pray that you’ll be strong enough to endure. He never said that.“
This is actually exactly, what Jesus prophecies for his followers:
Then shall they deliver you up unto tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for my name’s sake.
And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.
And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.
But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
I consider myself a beginner concerning the book of Daniel and the book of revelation, but for me it is clear as day, that there’s no room for pretribulational rapture, because Jesus and Paul taught posttribulational rapture.
As a sidenote: The rapture itself is never the main focus, but it’s the second coming of Jesus Christ. We could also say instead of „rapture“ „the gathering of the saints at the return of Jesus“.
I agree with you. We have to take things step by step.
When do you think the antichrist will be revealed and the great tribulation starts. I use these two markers to start counting down to the Lord's return to us.
Looking at current events and technology available now, I'm estimating a guess at all this happening in the 2030s after th EU's elections in 2029.
The 'Day of the Lord' is both a [specific] period of 1000 years and the first 24-hour day of that thousand years - the 'Second Coming of Christ' - when Jesus sets up His kingdom on earth. The rapture occurs during/on that first 24-hour day. After that follows the 'Wrath of God'.
The 'Trumpet' events take place before Jesus appears. The [time of the] 'Two Witnesses' coincide with these events.
The 'Seal' events are past-present-future relative to the present time.
The person at the center focus of Daniel 11:21-39 is Antiochus Epiphanes. Daniel 11:31 is describing the one-and-only real actual bona fide AoD in all of history. The prophecy of these verses is fulfilled. It is past history and not future.
The 'Trumpet' events take place before Jesus appears. The [time of the] 'Two Witnesses' coincide with these events.
The 'Seal' events are past-present-future relative to the present time.
The person at the center focus of Daniel 11:21-39 is Antiochus Epiphanes. Daniel 11:31 is describing the one-and-only real actual bona fide AoD in all of history. The prophecy of these verses is fulfilled. It is past history and not future.
The pre-trib view could be devastating for those who bought into the escapism view and possibly turn away from their Christianity (if you believe that's possible...another debate for another day) when they realize they are living through the tribulation period, despite what their pastor told them. So, it could be very important in that regard.
AMEN. Truth.The great tribulation is not God's wrath. The Bible always makes a distinction. Tribulation is Satan's wrath on God's people.