Pre Trib or Post trib rapture?
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God is giving the world 7 years to have their way to go against the truth so He can end sin on earth.
The saints will remain on earth because they represent the truth.
Since God is giving the world their way for 7 years the wrath of God will not be there.
The wrath happens after the 7 years are up.
For the first three and one half years salvation is still available to the world.
So the wrath would not be there.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
For the last three and one half years the beast has power from God to rule the world.
So the wrath would not be there.
Which is the time of the tribulation when the world persecutes all people who oppose the beast kingdom.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
The seals and trumpets is not the wrath of God.
The vials are the wrath that happens after the beast rules the world for three and one half years.
The trumpets are disasters that happen on earth but the world does not turn to God and repent but they keep on trying to achieve peace on earth by their own power and applying their system which is contrary to God's operation.
After the 6th trumpet they did not turn to God so He gives them the antichrist to rule over them.
An example is WW1, set up League of Nations, did not turn to God.
WW2, set up United Nations, did not turn to God.
And that pattern will happen until the 6th trumpet.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
The saints will not be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first which is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel and the belief in a personal God.
Which the world stopped the preaching of both and implemented a system that exalts people and is contrary to the operation of God for three and one half years.
Which then the transgressors have come to the full the peak of rebelliousness.
Then the man of sin a king of fierce countenance will stand up claiming to be God which happens in the middle of the 7 years period.
Then the saints can be resurrected.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
But the beast makes war against the saints and prevails against them.
And they are given in to his hands for three and one half years.
And when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people all things shall be finished.
Which then comes the end when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to God.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.
When the pre-7 years resurrection does not happen it will overthrow the faith of some people and they will follow the world.
The saints will remain on earth because they represent the truth.
Since God is giving the world their way for 7 years the wrath of God will not be there.
The wrath happens after the 7 years are up.
For the first three and one half years salvation is still available to the world.
So the wrath would not be there.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
For the last three and one half years the beast has power from God to rule the world.
So the wrath would not be there.
Which is the time of the tribulation when the world persecutes all people who oppose the beast kingdom.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
The seals and trumpets is not the wrath of God.
The vials are the wrath that happens after the beast rules the world for three and one half years.
The trumpets are disasters that happen on earth but the world does not turn to God and repent but they keep on trying to achieve peace on earth by their own power and applying their system which is contrary to God's operation.
After the 6th trumpet they did not turn to God so He gives them the antichrist to rule over them.
An example is WW1, set up League of Nations, did not turn to God.
WW2, set up United Nations, did not turn to God.
And that pattern will happen until the 6th trumpet.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
The saints will not be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first which is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel and the belief in a personal God.
Which the world stopped the preaching of both and implemented a system that exalts people and is contrary to the operation of God for three and one half years.
Which then the transgressors have come to the full the peak of rebelliousness.
Then the man of sin a king of fierce countenance will stand up claiming to be God which happens in the middle of the 7 years period.
Then the saints can be resurrected.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
But the beast makes war against the saints and prevails against them.
And they are given in to his hands for three and one half years.
And when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people all things shall be finished.
Which then comes the end when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to God.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.
When the pre-7 years resurrection does not happen it will overthrow the faith of some people and they will follow the world.
There will be many saved during the Great Tribulation. Many who have heard the gospel and done nothing about it will repent. The beast wages war against them and those who get saved in that time. It's a great incentive to ensure that people are real believers before that time. If their names are written in the Lamb's book of life, they will reject the Antichrist.
The Great Tribulation is for the wicked, not God's people. God poured out His holy wrath on Jesus so that we can escape.
1 Thess. 4:16 states that the dead will rise FIRST, Rev. 20:4-5 states that the saints are resurrected and they reign with Christ for a thousand years. You make a judgement call on whether these two are the same event or two different events. If they're the same, then it could only be post-trib; if not, then it may be pre-trib. This is where most rapture theories and sermons fall apart, they've totally ignore the resurrection part or at least the timing of it.
I personally, can only see to stand ready in belief to God in Son risen for me, given to me by God for me, even if go through troubles as well and have and could again.
Col 1:21-23. I stand, I have no fight for anyone against anyone else in pre-trip, mid-trip and post-trib
The bottom line I see is:
The book of Job, started at Chapter 1, where I see verse 22 tells me and reveals to me, I see to not deny God, no matter what, anyone else?
Now, personally I have been through troubles too.
I stand in thankfulness to God period, as I have gone through my own troubles too.
Therefore, are any of you all seeking out things as rapture? tell you in yourself, is that good for you or is it a distraction from standing in belief to God no matter how things might appear presently. Does it cause confusion in others, might we be confused acting all esoteric? How can anyone know, God is the only one, to me at least, and is not worth honing it out as if I am better and know more? They did not know, when they got Jesus killed upon that cross. They, not even Satan understood.
Yet, through the cross, as risen we are first reconciled, forgiven by Father through Son, period, everyone that is done John 19:30, John 1:29 filled. Left now, after the cross for us all to decide, whether or not to believe Father in this truth given us all, Son is risen where new life in Father's Spirit and Truth is given John 4:23-24 for us each to love all in the same mercy and truth given through Son. John 13:34
Might, be time to rest
Authorized (King James) Version
Hebrews 4:9-11
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Each fighting over when, where How, and you better or else attitudes of flesh nature of First birth.
Be, new born new in God for you through Son to you. Believe God, receive from God and be new in God having love for all and not be any person better or knowing. better than others you think?
We are all equal, Son went to that cross for all people of flesh. To give new life in his risen Life to love all mercifully too. So choose, is he risen or not for you or not personally too?
This gift is too amazing to not accept thankfully and learn new from Father in risen Son for you too, thank you
The Trib matters not. Today is the day to believe God in God's Love for us all 1John 2:1-27 and see verse 27 as real for you too from God for you in risen Son, thank you Father!
How could it not be the same event, it is said to be the first resurrection, and it matches the two parts of the first resurrection mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:23 "But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. "
Pre-tribbers have to imagine a 3rd part, which they get from the gleanings mentioned in the OT feasts. Only problem is: The New Testament does not teach 3 parts.
But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits.
Christ himself WAS the firstfruit, all other believers are the rest. There're not two groups, but Lord Jesus and one group of the redeemed.
I don't listen to Evens.. no reason great man of God. If you listened you hear things.. that post-trib do not touch. Haha.. keep getting this word baffle... just funny to me. It baffles? Me to know no one on this planet was promised tomorrow. We can all prepare for tomorrow. Every believer I would pray knows this moment we have right now GOD gave us. Not random. We were placed here in this time for a reason.
So... I think where should my hope faith be in a time I might never see? According to His word unless I bow and take the mark I will die. And then not man but the lawless one the Antichrist will be given authority over us "It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. " Over every tribe, tongue and nation.
Yet here we are .. do we believe GOD meant what He said and GOD Keeps His word and what He gives us He never takes back? He gave us all power all authority over the enemy and nothing shall by any means hurt you. There is no way Satan will ever have power over me unless GOD takes Christ out of me. Then to read the OT .... Moshe (Moses)
" So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said. "
My point is.. do we see this today? No.. Satan the enemy is being held back but when He/it is taken out of the way.. the lawless one will do things no man on this earth can do. Things none of us have ever seen and so much more. I don't know maybe a "I don't believe" is what it takes do just toss all this out
make it not true?
Soooo me this moment my hope is.. what I read.. no pre no mid no post.. I have this moment and He went back I believe to make me a place and where (seated at the right hand of the Father) He is I will be. I know where He is and how He went. So I live each moment I get for Him and watch ready for Him now. NO I don't go off sell all.. foolish.
So... I think where should my hope faith be in a time I might never see? According to His word unless I bow and take the mark I will die. And then not man but the lawless one the Antichrist will be given authority over us "It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. " Over every tribe, tongue and nation.
Yet here we are .. do we believe GOD meant what He said and GOD Keeps His word and what He gives us He never takes back? He gave us all power all authority over the enemy and nothing shall by any means hurt you. There is no way Satan will ever have power over me unless GOD takes Christ out of me. Then to read the OT .... Moshe (Moses)
" So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said. "
My point is.. do we see this today? No.. Satan the enemy is being held back but when He/it is taken out of the way.. the lawless one will do things no man on this earth can do. Things none of us have ever seen and so much more. I don't know maybe a "I don't believe" is what it takes do just toss all this out
make it not true? Soooo me this moment my hope is.. what I read.. no pre no mid no post.. I have this moment and He went back I believe to make me a place and where (seated at the right hand of the Father) He is I will be. I know where He is and how He went. So I live each moment I get for Him and watch ready for Him now. NO I don't go off sell all.. foolish.
I don't listen to Evens.. no reason great man of God. If you listened you hear things.. that post-trib do not touch. Haha.. keep getting this word baffle... just funny to me. It baffles? Me to know no one on this planet was promised tomorrow. We can all prepare for tomorrow. Every believer I would pray knows this moment we have right now GOD gave us. Not random. We were placed here in this time for a reason.
So... I think where should my hope faith be in a time I might never see? According to His word unless I bow and take the mark I will die. And then not man but the lawless one the Antichrist will be given authority over us "It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. " Over every tribe, tongue and nation.
Yet here we are .. do we believe GOD meant what He said and GOD Keeps His word and what He gives us He never takes back? He gave us all power all authority over the enemy and nothing shall by any means hurt you. There is no way Satan will ever have power over me unless GOD takes Christ out of me. Then to read the OT .... Moshe (Moses)
" So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said. "
My point is.. do we see this today? No.. Satan the enemy is being held back but when He/it is taken out of the way.. the lawless one will do things no man on this earth can do. Things none of us have ever seen and so much more. I don't know maybe a "I don't believe" is what it takes do just toss all this out
Soooo me this moment my hope is.. what I read.. no pre no mid no post.. I have this moment and He went back I believe to make me a place and where (seated at the right hand of the Father) He is I will be. I know where He is and how He went. So I live each moment I get for Him and watch ready for Him now. NO I don't go off sell all.. foolish.
Live in the present, The Present God has given us to rest in. Why else is the present, called th present?
Thank you deeply Blade for seeing. this truth you posted, thank you
No, I do not either. I am ready though, whenever Dad, Father, PaPa calls on me to do whatever needed to do
I do not for one second Jesus said sell all you have and give to the poor only as is misused by religions, to me as I now see it and see not condemn anyone since Son took away all sin in ?father's sight first John 1:29.
I hear God said to be available to give whatever I ask of you for whoever I send you to.
seeing this as well, if Father and Son tell me to give it all to another, even if another person gets me to do that. It really matters not, why?
Because I believe Father and Son are my full supply
I think that Chapter Matthew 19 is about being willing for God to lead thee through anything.
I say this because the Disciples saw that rich person walk away sad, and asked, seeing no way to get to Heaven under doing right things by Law, it had to be perfect or no way. So, they saw under Law, not the way in.
So, asked Jesus, once saw that rich person not able to give it all up to God willingly
Asked Jesus, How then can anyone enter Heaven?????????????????????????????
Jesus replied with people, "It is impossible" With my Father "All things. are possible"
So, was Jesus talking about going to that cross willingly and then being raised from the dead for our new life in Father's Spirit and truth to lead through us? Each get to decide Eph 1:1-13 verse 6,7 23 stand out to me and ask Father to reveal 1 John 2:27
There are many prrtrib rapture verses.
No postribber brings them to the table.
Mat 24 alone has 2 comings.
Rev14:14 has yet another coming.
Denying verses is not the high ground.
I'm amazed at how much they keep adding to their false doctrine. That won't make it any truer or change God's mind.
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I know what he's talking about.
Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?.../KJV
They ask Jesus 3 questions. In verses 4 through 31 Jesus answers them and he finishes in verse 31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other..../KJV
And then Jesus keeps on talking and says let's talk about something else starting in verse 32
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:.../KJV
Jesus finished answering what they asked about His 2nd coming and Jesus starts talking about the rapture if you read the rest of the chapter. Jesus changed the subject and most people gloss over that because they dont know Greek or are stoned or something. Jesus answered all 3 questions and then says lets learn something else...!!! See it?
This response is how Post tribbers usually answer. They can't answer questions or dismiss things as perspective and stuff but are unable to show us (wrong?) Pre tribbers the truth by scripture. You cant do it...
We do answer with scripture, but none of you accept it. So now we're just going to let the great tribulation tell you how false your doctrine is.
That's how sure post-trib rapture is. It's simple and doesn't need a lot of scripture twisting. It will prove itself.
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For you to claim Matthew 24 has two comings when the disciples ask what is the sign of your coming, singular, is already a SIGN that you are trying to over complicate the chapter to suit your pre-trib idea.
There is THE, parousia, one singular parousia. This is important for two reasons:
1. Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
2. Acts 3:20-21
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Jesus stays in heaven until His enemies are made His footstool and it is evident this happens at THE second coming. The definite article is there.
How is any of this evidence for Jesus coming back twice? That's a pretty big deal, and not a reasonable explanation for the tension he describes... of all these catastrophies happening, but there still being wedding and people saying 'peace and safety'. Of course, there are other eschatologies, and some take the Matthew and Luke passages he read to be passed events.
In Matthew 24, 'after the tribulation of those days' (called 'great tribulation' earlier in the passage), the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven, and the elect are gathered. For as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be..... ummmm this is set AFTER the great tribulation. So trying to argue for a pretrib rapture off of that makes no sense.
And tribulation and wrath are not the same thing. I do not believe God's wrath will be against the tribulational saints. They are described using heroic language.
Tell us the secrets of the Greek that you believe prove your thesis.
Let's look at some ideas throughout the passage:
" For then shall be great tribulation...."
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory...
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
The coming of the Son of Man is set AFTER the tribulation. 'But of that day and hour knoweth no man' is set AFTER the tribulation.
Let's look at this.
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
This is set at the coming of the Son of Man, which happens after the tribulation according to verses 29 and 30.
It doesnt? It is? It can? Wonderful Sister show me then because no one has been able to get me to understand the truth of it yet? It messes up other scriptures' that it should agree with. So I'm looking forward to this!