The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?
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For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Romans 10:4 The Greek word translated as 'end' means aim or purpose. We therefore understand and acknowledge that Christ as the end of the law means the law has ended. Jesus fulfilled the law, meaning He kept all the requirements of the law.
This and much much more is all in scripture and frankly, a person has to either lack understanding or just simply does not believe that Jesus can accomplish His purpose, our salvation, without them, without their abilities to keep the commandments even though if that were so, Jesus died for nothing.
I know that all of that has been explained to the 9th degree so I do not feel obligated to explain it all again and post a gang of scripture again when you and others want to make up your own gospel.
If a person does not accept that Christ died for our sins, He said it was finished on the cross and that God resurrected him on the 3rd day, if they think they are still obligated to keep the commandments and will argue from sunup to sundown that they can keep the commandments, then the truth is not in them.
Christ did not die to help us keep the commandments. That is an abrogation of what God says both through His OT prophets and through the witnesses of Jesus in the NT.
And again, continuing on with the lie that people who understand that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life and NOT the 10 commandments, continue to sin, believe we can sin and teach people can sin, ANYONE who continues to deliberately post that, and counter the truth with that lie and think that somehow it doesn't matter? It does matter! Anyone who does that, is lying.
Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Eternal death is the result of sin
1 sin = eternal death.
All have sinned. No one can pay the debt of eternal death. If we were perfect from this moment we wound still need to pay our debt.
Keeping the law for me has nothing to do with being saved by earning it, or works. Our works can not save us from our debt..
Only Jesus can.
Because Jesus is the only one that can pay our debt, do we make void the law and continue to sin? Salvation is not just being cleaned of our past sins but also cleaning our hearts so we hate sin. Being born again. A spiritual transformation. Jesus does not magically give us perfect characters. Jesus works with us to become more like Him.
Salvation from sin is not just paying the debt of our past sins but also victory or overcoming present and future sins.
It might seem impossible but keep telling yourself that all things are possible with Jesus.. Believe by faith in the Almighty.
Jesus did keep the law perfectly and fulfilled the righteous requirements, He did that, not so that we can continue to sin, but so that He can imput and impart this righteousness to us.
Imputed and imparted righteousness is a gift from Jesus.
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Um... what? That's not historically sound at all. The gospels and letters were widely distributed and considered "scripture" even before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
U
Undergrace1
Guest
Its about the hypocrisy of the Jews, if we read on straight after verse 16, Paul says to them:
''''Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”[b]''''
Verse 12&13 state if you are under the law you will be judged by the law, you will be justified if you obey it. That is not what Paul believed for christians. He keeps repeating they are not under the law, you cannot be justified by the law. The whole segment concerns, if you are under the law, as the Jews wanted to be, you must obey it, you cannot boast of having the law and then yourself break it.
So what does Paul conclude in ch3? conclude from what he has previously written in Romans?
What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. Rom3:9
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. Rom3:20-22
That is very different from what he wrote in ch2:
all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 12&13
So when we tag that along with what I quoted from Romans2 initially, we can accept the hypocrisy of the Jews is being written about, for christians are not under the law, they are not justified by obeying it
U
Undergrace1
Guest
[QUOTE="pinebeach, post: 5676866, member: 343456" if they think they are still obligated to keep the commandments and will argue from sunup to sundown that they can keep the commandments, then the truth is not in them.
.[/QUOTE]
An external law will never convict of sin to the degree an internal law ever will. So people who look to an external law, will think it possible to fully obey it. Those who have, or rely on an internal law are not in such ignorance
.[/QUOTE]
An external law will never convict of sin to the degree an internal law ever will. So people who look to an external law, will think it possible to fully obey it. Those who have, or rely on an internal law are not in such ignorance
Very good reply and for some unknown reason most do not understand Romans chapters 2&3.
Especially that Paul, is in detail, describing the failure of the Jews to achieve righteousness through the law.
Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter;
and his praise is not from men, but from God.
How could a Gentile ever quote from the letter of the law when it's the Spirit that matters.
Then Paul wraps it up in the following verses.
Romans 3:28-30
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only?
Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised
by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
Of course there were letters by the apostles and other authors circulating through certain
churches.
Here is a list of some letters that were rejected that were circulation in the churches.
These texts were rejected by the early church because they often featured Gnostic, Docetic
(denying Jesus' physical body), or magical elements. (Google)
- Gospel of Thomas (c. 100–110 AD): A collection of 114 secret sayings of Jesus. It is Gnostic in nature and emphasizes salvation through secret knowledge.
- Infancy Gospel of Thomas (2nd Century): A popular text describing the childhood of Jesus, portraying him as a capricious child who uses divine powers to kill other children or strike them blind.
- Gospel of Peter (Mid-2nd Century): Known for its Docetic leanings and a strange, supernatural account of the resurrection, which includes a talking cross.
- Gospel of Judas (2nd Century): A Gnostic text that portrays Judas Iscariot as the only apostle who understood the true, secret teachings of Jesus.
- Gospel of Mary Magdalene (2nd Century): A Gnostic work that highlights Mary Magdalene as a recipient of superior knowledge, often elevating her above the male apostles.
- Gospel of Marcion (Mid-2nd Century): A redacted version of the Gospel of Luke used by the heretic Marcion, which removed all references to the Old Testament and Jesus’s Jewishness.
- Gospel of the Egyptians (2nd Century): A Gnostic text not to be confused with the Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians.
- Gospel of the Hebrews (Late 1st–Early 2nd Century): A Jewish-Christian gospel that was sometimes used but ultimately deemed heretical or non-canonical.
- Secret Gospel of Mark (2nd Century): A controversial fragment discovered in the 20th century, often considered a 2nd-century Gnostic work or a modern forgery, which suggests a more esoteric version of the Markan narrative.
- Gospel of Apelles (Mid-Late 2nd Century): A text produced by a student of Marcion.
Paul told the Thessalonians how to know if a letter was from him and not a forgery.
2 Thessalonians 3:17
I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand, and this is a distinguishing mark in every letter; this is the way I write.
So at the end of the first century what was the canon of the New Testament?
Here is another point to consider.
Colossians 4:16
And when this letter has been read among you, have it also read in the church of the Laodiceans; and see
that you also read the letter from Laodicea.
Our N.T is missing the letter written to Laodicea.
We also are apparently missing two letters sent to the Corinthians.
A previous letter cited in 1 Corinthians 5:9 and the painful letter 2 Corinthians 2:4
It took considerable time to compile a recognized authentic list of letters.
In the later second century (c. 150–200 AD), the New Testament canon was not complete or officially finalized.
While the four Gospels, Acts, and most Pauline letters were widely accepted, the canon was fluid, and many letters,
including Revelation, were disputed, held in lower regard, or omitted by various local churches.
Status of the Canon in the Late Second Century:
- The "Core" Was Solidifying: By 180–200 AD, church fathers like Irenaeus of Lyons recognized a fourfold Gospel and a collection of Pauline epistles, often citing about 21–22 of the 27 books that would later form the final canon.
- Disputed Books (The "Missing" Letters): Several books in our modern New Testament were not universally accepted as scripture at this time. These included Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2–3 John, James, Jude, and often Revelation.
- The Case of Revelation: Revelation was particularly contentious. While it was accepted by Western leaders like Irenaeus and Tertullian, it was viewed with suspicion in the East due to its challenging, symbolic imagery and its association with the controversial Montanist movement. It was not universally accepted until the late 4th or even 5th century in some areas.
- Inclusion of Other Books: Conversely, books not in the modern New Testament, such as the Shepherd of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabas, or the Apocalypse of Peter, were sometimes considered scripture or read in churches during this period.
You think you found a loophole?
RIF
Re read the chapter my friend, he is speaking to and including all. As was stated in Chapter 1, the letter is to all that be in Rome.
Be that as it may. How do we know chapter is not an isolated comment to just the Circumcision?
Because it says every man will be rendered judgment according to his deeds in verse 6.
And The "them" in verse 7 refers to the part of the every man that is patiently continuing in well doing.
And The "them" in verse 8 refers to the part of this every man that is contentious and does not obey the truth but obeys unrighteousness.
And The "many" which would be the gentiles in verse 12 which sinned without the law shall perish without law. As well as the many that sinned in the law shall be judge through the Law.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
The part that upsets me. There are those who disagree with you who also disagree with me. Yet they are silent to you in regard to your misinterpretation here. Sad....
Hi Inquisitor,
When Paul says “works of the Law” in Romans 3, he is not talking about doing good in general. He is talking about specific actions required by the Law of Moses that marked someone as Jewish and placed them under that covenant.
In simple words, “works of the Law” means doing the legal requirements of Moses’ Law in order to be counted as righteous.
Here is what that looked like in practice.
First, circumcision.
This was the clearest example. A man entered the covenant by being circumcised (Genesis 17). Many believed that without this act, a Gentile could not belong to God’s people.
Second, food laws.
Eating only clean foods and avoiding foods called unclean (Leviticus 11). This separated Jews from Gentiles every day, at every meal.
Third, ritual washings and purity rules.
Washings after contact with certain things, people, or events. These were not moral actions like loving or forgiving, but ritual rules.
Fourth, temple sacrifices and feast observances.
Bringing offerings, keeping the appointed feasts, and following temple rules tied to the priesthood.
These are called “works of the Law” because they are things written in the Law that must be done outwardly, often tied to identity, ritual, and covenant signs.
What they are not.
They are not loving God.
They are not loving your neighbor.
They are not obeying God from the heart.
Jesus made this clear.
Jesus said the greatest commandments are to love God and love your neighbor (Matthew 22:37–40). He said doing God’s will is what matters, not outward rule-keeping (Matthew 7:21). He rebuked people who kept rituals but ignored justice, mercy, and faithfulness (Matthew 23:23).
James, one of the Twelve, explains this plainly.
Faith that does not lead to obedience and right action is dead (James 2). These are works of faith, not “works of the Law.”
So the simple meaning is this.
“Works of the Law” are ritual and covenant requirements of Moses’ Law, like circumcision, food rules, and temple practices, done to claim righteousness or covenant status.
Faith that saves is not empty belief.
It is trusting God and obeying Him from the heart, the way Jesus taught.
That is why God can justify both Jew and Gentile.
Not by ritual markers, but by real faith that listens, follows, and endures.
Sanctification
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. John 17:19.
The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven.
As the penitent sinner, contrite before God, discerns Christ’s atonement in his behalf, and accepts this atonement as his only hope in this life and the future life, his sins are pardoned. This is justification by faith.
Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations created in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome.
It [sanctification] is not merely a theory, an emotion, or a form of words, but a living, active principle, entering into the everyday life. It requires that our habits impove so that we may present to the Lord our bodies—not an offering corrupted by wrong habits but—“a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God.”
The Scriptures are the great agency in the transformation of character.... If studied and obeyed, the Word of God works in the heart, subduing every unholy attribute.
There is no such thing as instantaneous sanctification. True sanctification is a daily work, continuing as long as life shall last.
Christs Righteousness within our hearts is testified to by righteousness without. He who is righteous within will not hide it but they grow day by day into the image of Christ, going on from strength to strength. He who is being sanctified by the truth will be self-controlled, and will follow in the footsteps of Christ.
The sanctification of the soul is accomplished through steadfastly beholding Him [Christ] by faith. The power of truth is to transform heart and character. Its effect is not like a dash of color here and there upon the canvas; the whole character is to be transformed, the image of Christ is to be revealed in words and actions. A new nature is imparted. Man is renewed after the image of Christ in righteousness and true holiness.... The grace of Christ is essential every day, every hour.
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. John 17:19.
The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven.
As the penitent sinner, contrite before God, discerns Christ’s atonement in his behalf, and accepts this atonement as his only hope in this life and the future life, his sins are pardoned. This is justification by faith.
Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations created in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome.
It [sanctification] is not merely a theory, an emotion, or a form of words, but a living, active principle, entering into the everyday life. It requires that our habits impove so that we may present to the Lord our bodies—not an offering corrupted by wrong habits but—“a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God.”
The Scriptures are the great agency in the transformation of character.... If studied and obeyed, the Word of God works in the heart, subduing every unholy attribute.
There is no such thing as instantaneous sanctification. True sanctification is a daily work, continuing as long as life shall last.
Christs Righteousness within our hearts is testified to by righteousness without. He who is righteous within will not hide it but they grow day by day into the image of Christ, going on from strength to strength. He who is being sanctified by the truth will be self-controlled, and will follow in the footsteps of Christ.
The sanctification of the soul is accomplished through steadfastly beholding Him [Christ] by faith. The power of truth is to transform heart and character. Its effect is not like a dash of color here and there upon the canvas; the whole character is to be transformed, the image of Christ is to be revealed in words and actions. A new nature is imparted. Man is renewed after the image of Christ in righteousness and true holiness.... The grace of Christ is essential every day, every hour.
U
Undergrace1
Guest
Works of the law means observing the law.
When Paul repeatedly states you cannot be righteous by observing the law, this is because of the TC primarily.
The Mosaic law of rite, ritual and ceremony could faultlessly be obeyed, even by the worst of sinners(Phil3:6)
Law you can faultlessly obey you can indeed be justified by obeying, yet Paul repeatedly states you cannot be righteous by the works of the law. Therefore, this is not because of the Mosaic law, but the TC. Indeed, if there was no moral law Jesus need not have died at Calvary. So Paul's usage of the words ''works of the law'' are with in mind the TC, not the Mosaic law
you are so incredibly confused and ignorant it makes me sad.
This claim collapses on itself, and it does so fast.
First false move:
“Works of the law means observing the law.”
No. That is a lazy shortcut, not a definition. In Scripture, “the law” is God’s command to live rightly. But “works of the law” are specific boundary actions people trusted in to prove they belonged to God’s covenant people. Chief among them were circumcision, some food rules, ritual purity, and calendar signs. These were not about loving God or loving others. They were identity markers. Jesus Himself exposed this difference again and again.
Jesus never said, “Do not observe the law.”
He said, “These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone” (Matthew 23:23). He rebuked people not for obedience, but for thinking outward acts made them righteous while their hearts were corrupt.
Second false move:
“The Mosaic law of rite, ritual and ceremony could faultlessly be obeyed, even by the worst of sinners.”
That statement directly contradicts Jesus.
Jesus said, “Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These defile a man” (Matthew 15:19–20).
A sinner is not made clean because he performs rituals correctly. A clean plate on the outside does not fix rot inside. Jesus said exactly this in Matthew 23:25–28.
You can wash your hands perfectly.
You can eat the right food.
You can perform rituals exactly right.
And still be unrighteous before God.
That is not faultless obedience. That is surface obedience.
Third false move:
“Law you can faultlessly obey you can indeed be justified by obeying.”
Jesus destroyed this idea in one sentence.
“You therefore shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect” (Matthew 5:48).
Not ritual perfection.
Not rule-checking perfection.
Heart perfection.
That alone ends the argument.
If righteousness came from “faultlessly obeying rituals,” then the Pharisees were the most righteous people who ever lived. Jesus said the opposite. He said prostitutes and tax collectors would enter the kingdom before them (Matthew 21:31).
Fourth false move:
“Therefore Paul is not talking about the Mosaic law, but the Ten Commandments.”
This is pure invention.
Jesus quoted the Ten Commandments constantly and deepened them, not abolished them.
“You have heard… but I say to you” (Matthew 5).
Anger is murder in seed form.
Lust is adultery in seed form.
Jesus never said, “You cannot be righteous by keeping God’s commandments.”
He said, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17).
And then He named them.
What Jesus rejected was using law-keeping as a replacement for repentance, faith, and a changed heart.
Final nail in the coffin:
Jesus told the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (Luke 18:9–14).
The Pharisee trusted in his religious works.
The tax collector cried for mercy.
Jesus said the second man went home justified.
Why?
Because God never justified anyone by external performance.
He justifies the humble, the repentant, the obedient from the heart.
So no, “works of the law” does not mean “all obedience.”
And no, ritual law cannot make a sinner righteous.
And no, Jesus never taught that the Ten Commandments cannot be obeyed.
This argument fails because it ignores Jesus, ignores the heart, and replaces truth with word games.
That’s the plain truth.
U
Undergrace1
Guest
Really? So the NIV 1984 edition is full of inaccuracies?
In that version works of the law are written as observing the law. So you understand better than the translators of that edition?
You do not understand Paul's message. You cannot be justified before God by obeying the law for it would require perfect obedience of it(Gal3:10&11)
The only reason Paul keeps insisting you cannot be justified by works of the law/observing the law is because of the moral law, mainly the TC.
I will repeat, the non moral law/mosaic law could faultlessly be obeyed
One of us is incredibly confused, that's for sure