The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

[Undergrace1]

Where people cross the line is where they basically teach that faith "is" obedience/works. Roman Catholics for example teach that faith is not simply believing but includes works and that we are saved by faith "infused" with works and then those works become meretorious towards receiving salvation. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith (James 2:14-26) but not the very essence of faith and also, not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

The council of trent states:

The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the(Ten) Commandments.”

Im guessing, that is pretty close to sda belief, someone can tell me if I'm wrong

 

[Qt]

So what does Paul conclude from what he has been writing to the Romans thus far?
What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. Rom3:9

Chapter 3 is said in context to chapter 2 and 1 where it says we will be judged by what we do. Chapter 3 continues from that point and concludes, all have sinned, therefore by the deeds of the law in which we will be judged, no flesh shall be justified. Now the righteousness of God is manifested through the faith OF Jesus Christ into all and upon all that believe. This faith is what establishes the Law and the just live by (Rom 1:17). For the word is in our heart and in our mouth, that is the faith in which we preach. (Rom 10:8) For with the heart man believeth unto (into) righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ into all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 

[Undergrace1]

Chapter 3 is said in context to chapter 2 and 1 where it says we will be judged by what we do. Chapter 3 continues from that point and concludes, all have sinned, therefore by the deeds of the law in which we will be judged, no flesh shall be justified. Now the righteousness of God is manifested through the faith OF Jesus Christ into all and upon all that believe. This faith is what establishes the Law and the just live by (Rom 1:17). For the word is in our heart and in our mouth, that is the faith in which we preach. (Rom 10:8) For with the heart man believeth unto (into) righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ into all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Ch3:9 is Paul concluding concerning what he has previously written, and ch1&2 must be understood in light of ch3
May I ask, which commands do you believe bring justification for the believer?
Paul stated the Ten Commandments are the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation, and he keeps repeating you cannot be righteous by obeying the law because of them(proof can be given if neccessary)
Is justification in the believers life obeying Jesus individual commands in the gospels in your view? If it is, everyone Ive ever met is in trouble. So which law are you speaking of?

 

[TMS]

We all have a work marked out for us by our heavenly Father. We are to take our Bibles and go and tell the world about the gospel. We are to feed the poor, help the needy and reflect the character of Jesus. We are to be God’s helping hand in saving souls. We are to be channels through which His love is day by day to flow to the perishing. We have the privilege of taking part in God's great work which sanctifies the true worker. He is filled with the faith that works by love and purifies the soul.

 

[Qt]

I already covered this in post #3,066. Are you seeking justification by the law? (Galatians 2:16) Paul's argument in regard to judgment highlights that God will judge the hidden, internal secrets of all people through Jesus Christ. Whether Jew or Gentile, with or without the law, we are shown to be righteous at the judgment based on our deeds, yet only in Jesus Christ, by grace and through faith, (Ephesians 2:8,9) will anyone be accounted as righteous and given eternal life. (Romans 4:2-6)

Yes Judgement is based on our deeds in and through Christ Jesus. Every man is given a measure of faith. And the Just shall live by this Faith that is a gift from God through Christ Jesus. This is the faith that establishes the law. That through the spirit mortifies the deeds of the body that we should live.

 

[Undergrace1]

We all have a work marked out for us by our heavenly Father. We are to take our Bibles and go and tell the world about the gospel. We are to feed the poor, help the needy and reflect the character of Jesus. We are to be God’s helping hand in saving souls. We are to be channels through which His love is day by day to flow to the perishing. We have the privilege of taking part in God's great work which sanctifies the true worker. He is filled with the faith that works by love and purifies the soul.

May I suggest something to you? The second greatest commandment is important-right?
You see, many have an internal law, you cannot hide from it or be in ignorance of it, it is in your most inward parts, in your heart and mind. That is huge, it is part of your spiritual dna in Christ. They are not in ignorance as to what is entailed in obeying the TC, they cannot be.
And so, someone says to them ''You must obey the TC'' they do not add to that they themselves transgress them. What is the person going to infer from what has been said to them? They will naturally infer the person who insists the TC is fully obeying them themselves as they have said nothing to the contrary. Many, sincere folk, then get crushed, oppressed, downtrodden by their inability to do what they assume(falsley) people are doing who insist they obey those commands. And sadly, many give up with the faith and walk away, believeing they cannot be worthy enough for God, as they assume others are being
So, bearing in mind the second greatest commandment, I would challenge you, from now on, when you insist to people they must obey the TC, you add to that you yourself transgress them, then you will be obeying the second greatest commandment as you will not be responsible for crushing others and many of them walking away from the faith

 

[Qt]

Ch3:9 is Paul concluding concerning what he has previously written, and ch1&2 must be understood in light of ch3
May I ask, which commands do you believe bring justification for the believer?

Never mentioned that we are justified by commands. Read the post again please. Here it is so you don't have to scroll up.

"Chapter 3 is said in context to chapter 2 and 1 where it says we will be judged by what we do. Chapter 3 continues from that point and concludes, all have sinned, therefore by the deeds of the law in which we will be judged, no flesh shall be justified. Now the righteousness of God is manifested through the faith OF Jesus Christ into all and upon all that believe. This faith is what establishes the Law and the just live by (Rom 1:17). For the word is in our heart and in our mouth, that is the faith in which we preach. (Rom 10:8) For with the heart man believeth unto (into) righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

 

[Undergrace1]

Never mentioned that we are justified by commands. Read the post again please. Here it is so you don't have to scroll up.

"Chapter 3 is said in context to chapter 2 and 1 where it says we will be judged by what we do. Chapter 3 continues from that point and concludes, all have sinned, therefore by the deeds of the law in which we will be judged, no flesh shall be justified. Now the righteousness of God is manifested through the faith OF Jesus Christ into all and upon all that believe. This faith is what establishes the Law and the just live by (Rom 1:17). For the word is in our heart and in our mouth, that is the faith in which we preach. (Rom 10:8) For with the heart man believeth unto (into) righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

You quoted Rom ch2 more than once. What law must be obeyed to show you have justifying faith?
Or is there none in your view?

 

[mailmandan]

The council of trent states:

The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the(Ten) Commandments.”

Im guessing, that is pretty close to sda belief, someone can tell me if I'm wrong

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic about salvation through faith on a different Christian forum and here is what he said to me below:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying the commandments etc..

As you can see, his argument about faith being defined as and INCLUDES these works above equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. What I found very interesting was during our conversation, this Roman Catholic who made that statement above in blue just got through telling me that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then contradicted himself by stating that we are saved by faith + accomplishing this list of works above. Sugar coated double talk/smoke and mirrors.

The SDA belief is similar and falls in line with salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works. Here is a statement below in blue posted by a previous member of Christian Chat who was an SDA which proves my point.

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

 

[Undergrace1]

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic about salvation through faith on a different Christian forum and here is what he said to me below:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying the commandments etc..

As you can see, his argument about faith being defined as and INCLUDES these works above equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. What I found very interesting was during our conversation, this Roman Catholic who made that statement above in blue just got through telling me that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then contradicted himself by stating that we are saved by faith + accomplishing this list of works above. Sugar coated double talk/smoke and mirrors.

The SDA belief is similar and falls in line with salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works. Here is a statement below in blue posted by a previous member of Christian Chat who was an SDA which proves my point.

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

Its amazing isn't it, the law Paul says you die to and are released from/ TC the reason he keeps insisting you cannot be justified by law is the TC, and yet, so many churches preach in effect what catholics and sda believe. In my view, it shows who understands a spiritual message and who does not
BTW
I was raised Pentecostal. I grew up in that church believing Jesus died for my past sins, then I had to live a nigh on sinless life if I wished to attain to Heaven. Hard to do for a young teenager, or anyone else come to that. I then in reality tried to attain to Heaven as did Saul the Pharisee(apart from the mosaic law), and so, I could recite word for word, the testimony about Saul; in Rom7:7-11 KJV as my experience in that church

 

[vassal]

But faith and works are not joined at the hip.

what comes first faith or works?

 

[vassal]

Salvation begins exactly where Jesus said it begins, with hearing the word. Jesus taught, “The sower soweth the word” (Mark 4:14, ASV). The word of God is placed into the heart like seed into soil. If the word is not heard, nothing can begin.
Jesus then explains what happens when the word is heard. Some hear it, but the word is taken away and never settles in the heart (Mark 4:15). Faith cannot grow there. Others hear the word and receive it with joy, but when trouble comes, they fall away because the word had no root (Mark 4:16–17). Faith started, but it did not last. Others hear the word, but the cares of this life choke it, and it becomes unfruitful (Mark 4:18–19). Faith exists, but it does not grow into obedience.
Then Jesus shows the heart that leads to life. “These are they that were sown upon the good ground; such as hear the word, and accept it, and bear fruit” (Mark 4:20). Hearing is the first step. Accepting the word is the second. Bearing fruit shows the word is alive inside the person.

From hearing, belief and faith grow. Jesus said, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent” (John 6:29). Faith means trusting Jesus and remaining in His word. “If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples” (John 8:31). Faith is not only believing once, but continuing to listen and follow.

Jesus makes it clear that true faith always leads to obedience. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father” (Matthew 7:21). He also said, “Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man” (Matthew 7:24). Hearing begins faith. Doing shows faith is real.
James explains this the same way. “Faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself” (James 2:17). Works do not replace faith. They reveal it. Obedience, mercy, and living according to God’s word are the fruit of faith. Jesus said it simply, “If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments” (John 14:15). A good tree bears good fruit because it is alive.
But Jesus also taught that faith and obedience must last. “He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13). Salvation is not only about beginning well, but about remaining faithful.

The book of Revelation, given through John, makes this even clearer. Jesus says to His people, “Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee the crown of life” (Revelation 2:10). He also says, “Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:12). Faith and obedience remain together until the end.
So the full path is this. The word is heard. The heart receives it. Faith grows by staying in Jesus’ word. That faith produces obedience and good fruit. And that life of faith must endure. Those who remain faithful, who keep His word and do not turn back, are the ones Jesus promises eternal life.

 

[mailmandan]

The book of Revelation, given through John, makes this even clearer. Jesus says to His people, “Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee the crown of life” (Revelation 2:10). He also says, “Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:12). Faith and obedience remain together until the end. So, the full path is this. The word is heard. The heart receives it. Faith grows by staying in Jesus’ word. That faith produces obedience and good fruit. And that life of faith must endure. Those who remain faithful, who keep His word and do not turn back, are the ones Jesus promises eternal life.

If Revelation 2:10 teaches that we must be "faithful enough" (in addition) to placing our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9) then just "how faithful" would you have to be? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "faithful enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? That is vague and could include any number of good works, which results in "works righteousness."

I see Revelation as an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. I don't see Jesus telling these Christians that if they are not "faithful enough" (in addition) to having faith in Him for salvation that they will not receive eternal life. That would be salvation by works! I do see Jesus telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there! In the very next verse, Jesus said - "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." 1 John 5:4, we read - "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ONLY (genuine) BELIEVERS are saved, overcome, and are faithful unto death (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:9). Make believers/unbelievers are not saved, do not overcome and are unfaithful unto death.

When I was a teenager, I temporarily attended the church of Christ with my friend and his aunt. Years later, after I received Jesus Christ through faith and was now a born-again Christian, I ran into my friend's aunt and while discussing church with her, she asked me if I had "remained faithful." Her idea of remaining faithful revolved around whether or not I still attended the church of Christ and held to all of their beliefs. When I told her that I no longer attended that church, but attend a different church now, she acted very uncomfortable and implied that I have not remained faithful and will not be saved. All because I no longer attend her church and hold to all of their beliefs.

By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments (for NT Christians) which is descriptive of genuine believers. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. That is descriptive of unbelievers.

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard (biblehub.com)

Those who remain faithful, who keep His word and do not turn back, demonstrate that their faith was firmly rooted and established from the start. Those who profess to have faith yet do not remain faithful or keep His word and turn back demonstrate that their faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start. (John 6:64-66; 1 John 2:19) Saving faith in Jesus Christ endures and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. The Lord who preserves His saints (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) so it's not about us pulling ourselves up by our own bootstraps and remaining faithful/enduring to the end in our own strength to the glory of ourselves, which culminates in type 2 works salvation or salvation by works at the back door.

 

[Undergrace1]

Salvation begins exactly where Jesus said it begins, with hearing the word. Jesus taught, “The sower soweth the word” (Mark 4:14, ASV). The word of God is placed into the heart like seed into soil..

Good you mentioned the parable of the sower:
This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.''

How can the devil take the word out of someone's heart that has been planted there?

 

[Undergrace1]

Salvation begins exactly where Jesus said it begins, with hearing the word. Jesus taught, “The sower soweth the word”.

The sower
In the first example of the parable of the sower, the devil takes the word out of a person’s heart that was planted there. How can he do that?
A new convert accepts Christ as their saviour. They then stand before God spotless in his sight. They have done nothing to earn or deserve to be righteous in God’s sight, they are righteous because Jesus died for them, they accepted a free gift. Their righteousness is faith in Christ. The word is in their heart
How can satan snatch the word away from the heart? Well he’d have a tough job convincing the convert Jesus didn’t die for them, for they are fully convinced he did, But satan doesn’t have to do that, he appeals to human reasoning. He plants thoughts in the new converts head they believe are their own rationalisations:
‘’’’Now you are a Christian you must obey God’s laws if you expect to remain saved, if you don’t, no one gets a licence to sin, so if you do not obey them you cannot remain saved’’’’
The new convert completely agrees with such logic, and who could argue against it? And so, they set out on their Christian walk determined to obey God’s laws so they may remain saved. Everything has changed, however, the new convert is not standing on a righteousness of faith in Christ now, but one of obeying the law, they can only remain justified if they do obey it, if not, they lose their justification
Satan has succeeded in snatching the word out of the heart that was planted there

 

[Inquisitor]

what comes first faith or works?

Grace!

 

[Inquisitor]

Never mentioned that we are justified by commands. Read the post again please. Here it is so you don't have to scroll up.

"Chapter 3 is said in context to chapter 2 and 1 where it says we will be judged by what we do. Chapter 3 continues from that point and concludes, all have sinned, therefore by the deeds of the law in which we will be judged, no flesh shall be justified. Now the righteousness of God is manifested through the faith OF Jesus Christ into all and upon all that believe. This faith is what establishes the Law and the just live by (Rom 1:17). For the word is in our heart and in our mouth, that is the faith in which we preach. (Rom 10:8) For with the heart man believeth unto (into) righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Whom is Paul addressing in Romans 2?

 

[Undergrace1]

what comes first faith or works?

Shall we ask Paul?

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ EVEN WHEN we were dead in transgressions/sin—it is by grace you have been saved.

 

[Inquisitor]

what comes first faith or works?

Here is what Peter had to say about grace.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

What does Paul say about grace?

Romans 5:2
Through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand;
and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

So what does John think about grace?

John 1:16
For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

 

[vassal]

Here is what Peter had to say about grace.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

What does Paul say about grace?

Romans 5:2
Through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand;
and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

So what does John think about grace?

John 1:16
For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

This is a straight deflection. The question was simple: what comes first, faith or works? Quoting “grace” without answering the order does not answer the question at all. It just changes the subject.
Yes, salvation is by God’s grace. No one is arguing that. Grace is the reason anything exists at all. Creation itself is grace. Breath is grace. Life is grace. If God removed His grace for one moment, nothing would stand. So throwing the word “grace” at every question proves nothing.
Now let’s bring this back to reality and to Scripture.
Grace is the source. Faith is the response. Works are the result.
Grace comes first because God acts first. Faith comes next because humans must respond. Works come last because real faith always produces action.
Even the verse you quoted from Romans admits this, whether people like it or not.
ASV Romans 5:2
“through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand”
Read it slowly. Access by faith into grace. Faith is the way a person enters what God already offered. Grace does not cancel faith. Grace requires a response.
Now John.
ASV John 1:16
“For of his fulness we all received, and grace for grace.”
John is not saying grace replaces obedience or makes works meaningless. John himself records Jesus saying the opposite over and over.
ASV John 14:15
“If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.”
ASV John 8:31
“If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples.”
John never taught that grace removes obedience. He taught that grace supplies life, and those who receive that life walk in truth.
Peter does the same thing in Acts 15. He is talking about how Jews and Gentiles are saved the same way, not about the order of faith and works. Peter never says works do not matter. In fact Peter says the opposite.
ASV 1 Peter 1:17
“pass the time of your sojourning in fear”
ASV 1 Peter 1:22
“Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth”
So let’s stop pretending words mean whatever we want.
Grace is God’s gift.
Faith is trusting God and believing Him.
Works are obedience that grows out of real faith.
Faith comes before works, but faith that produces no works is dead. James did not invent that. Jesus taught it first.
ASV Matthew 7:21
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father”
If someone answers “grace” every time to avoid the question, it is because they do not want to deal with Jesus’ words. Grace is not a magic word that erases obedience. Grace is the reason obedience is even possible.
That is the answer.