144,000: The first resurrection and rapture of the church

[ATG]

All mountains are on the Earth. Heaven does not have dirt, rocks and volcanoes.

All mountains of the earth are on the Earth. The mountain in the air above the earth does not have dirt, rocks and volcanoes.

Rev 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Sion and Zion are names for the same mountain/place etc. It's not super tall compared to others.

Already corrected this by Scripture enough.

Not responding to the Scriptures given, is agreement with the Scriptural argument.

 

[ATG]

Israel is a "Holy Nation". Look at their behavior all through their existence. Anything but Holy. The believer is "seated in heavenly places"....and yet also here on earth.

This is an example of blindness to the new covenant of the risen Lord, when people try to keep the old covenant with natural Israel alive.

1Pe 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The new covenant of Israel on earth is the grafted church and body of Christ, no matter the national birth. The Israel of the risen God is now the holy nation of Israel on earth.

Israel after the flesh like all nations on earth, do have born again holy saints and members in the holy Israel of God, sanctified by the Spirit from all natural born nations on earth.

Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Eph 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

 

[ATG]

There would be no reason for the natural seed of Israel to bring other natural seed of Israel from out of all nations to present as an offering to the lord. Isaiah's prophecy is an obvious reference to the gentiles being grafted into Israel and becoming their brethren as was also foretold in numerous other prophecies.

Ignoring challenges and repeating yourself, doesn't make your stuff any better.

No natural born person of another tribe and nation, can become born of another tribe of nation. Same one seed and blood, but not same natural genealogy.

Only those born of the seed of Abraham, can be the natural children of Abraham after the flesh.

Those born of the Spirit by the faith of Abraham, are not made natural children of Abraham.

 

[ATG]

Only a fellow Israelite neighbor could buy another neighbor's possession.

And that's what converts were. Fellow Israelites

The Scripture is all in context of naturally born Israelite.

And, no Israelite neighbor buying another's land inheritance, can keep it as their own inheritance after Jubilee.

No stranger nor convert to Israel can become a natural born Israelite, nor can they inherit any land of the Israelites.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

No stranger nor convert to Israel can become a natural born Israelite, nor can they inherit any land of the Israelites.

A stranger could not become natural born, but Ezekiel prophesied that converts would receive an inheritance in the land

 

[ATG]

It's exactly what the verses I quoted say. A convert became an Israelite sharing the same rights and privileges as all other Israelites descended from Abraham. He could buy land and give it as an inheritance to his offspring born of a convert wife.

False. No Israelite, convert, nor stranger could buy the inherited land of an Israelite, and keep it for himself an inheritance beyond Jubilee.

This is the third time you've rejected Scripture. I'll not repeat it.

Only the natural born Israelite of a convert, can inherit the land that the convert married into...

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

False. No Israelite, convert, nor stranger could buy the inherited land of an Israelite, and keep it for himself an inheritance beyond Jubilee.

This is the third time you've rejected Scripture. I'll not repeat it.

Only the natural born Israelite of a convert, can inherit the land that the convert married into...

What is written.

And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 47:22-23​

 

[ATG]

I don't see this. I think the prophets saw spiritual truths very dimly in visions and so spoke in figurative language.

I.e. you like seeing something else not written.

The standard response of people justifying their own imaginings: It's all 'spiritual and murky' anyway.

Doctrine and prophecy of Scripture is not smoke signals and puffy clouds in air, to try and read with personal imagination.

2Co 3:12
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

 

[ATG]

That was fulfilled nearly 2000 years ago.

The King has not returned with glory.

Nor, as He given to Abraham and his natural seed the land promised by God.

Nor, is the King sitting on His throne of David in Jerusalem, with the land partitioned to the natural tribes of Israel.

No, are natural Jews serving at His house as priests and Levites with outward and inward circumcision.

God has never had a covenant with any nation on earth by natural birth, nor has God done away with natural birth, in order to make one natural tribe and nation another natural tribe and nation.

There are old Jewish fables, and this is a pseudo-Christian version of a fable.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Christians identifying as 'Gentiles', agree that there should be segregation between themselves and the Jews, so much that they are also willing to promote a contradiction between the OT and NT Bible lists of names for the Jewish tribes.

There are a number of Bible haters that would also agree with them, that they are the same 12 tribes listed, and so the Bible does in fact contradict itself, and so is not the perfect word of God...

People who cling to their own preferred personal prophecies and doctrines, don't care what damage they would do to the words of God:

Isa 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Our attitude towards the Jewish people should be the same as what Paul expressed, who said:
1Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is for their salvation.
(Romans 10:18)
He also said:
…2I have deep sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my own flesh and blood, 4the people of Israel.
(Romans 9:21)
This strong language reflected the grief and compassion of God to restore the fellowship He once had with them, It also reflected His desire to fulfill His word to Abraham.

The Antisemitic hatred that has so often been poured out on the Jews comes out of the mouth of the Dragon and is an expression of the spirit of Antichrist, At times even Christian leaders joined in this pursuit. One notable example is Martin Luther who at first reached out to the Jews but when they did not accept it Luther turned on them and began persecuting them. He did the same to those who chose not to join in Luther's movement.

 

[ATG]

comment

So, you're also agreeing that the 144,000 include the sum of all saints from all nations, not the Jews only.

there are three resurrections,

True. There are three bodily resurrection: First Jesus Christ, then His saints at His return, and then all the rest of the dead after His Millennium.

the first is to eternal life in spirit bodies and the 144,000 are in that resurrection, they are the last called before the return of Christ, they come out of the Tribulation.

If so, then they are the fullness from all nations sealed with the Holy Ghost, without respect of natural birth.

However, for reasons I've given from Scripture, Rev 7 is the bodily first resurrection of all saints from all nations.

The second resurrection is all those that were never called and never even heard the name of Christ,those in the flood of Noah, all the pagans, the children that died in childhood ect. they are raised back to human life and given their one opportunity for eternal life. this is possibly a 100 or more billion. even the 6 billion alive to day have no or little knowledge of Christ or even held a Bible.

That's very gracious of you. Any Scripture for it?

Although there will be the greatest harvest of souls during the Lord's Millennium, there is only the first resurrection of the saints, and then the rest of the dead after the thousand years expire. That last resurrection will include all the Millennial saints, as well as all the wicked since Cain.

 

[memberofthebride]

So, you're also agreeing that the 144,000 include the sum of all saints from all nations, not the Jews only.


True. There are three bodily resurrection: First Jesus Christ, then His saints at His return, and then all the rest of the dead after His Millennium.


If so, then they are the fullness from all nations sealed with the Holy Ghost, without respect of natural birth.

However, for reasons I've given from Scripture, Rev 7 is the bodily first resurrection of all saints from all nations.


That's very gracious of you. Any Scripture for it?

Although there will be the greatest harvest of souls during the Lord's Millennium, there is only the first resurrection of the saints, and then the rest of the dead after the thousand years expire. That last resurrection will include all the Millennial saints, as well as all the wicked since Cain.

Comment:

Ezekiel 37; shows the 2nd resurrection after the 1000 years, the dead from day one, time of Adam, are raised to flesh and blood and will live for a life time, possibly 100 years, towards the end of this time Satan will be released for a very short time, the 2nd could be 100 billion are raised back to flesh and blood.

All humans must overcome human nature and the temptations of Satan before they are in the Kingdom

those born during the 1000 years will live 1000 years as they did at the beginning, and they also must be tempted by Satan during the Great white throne judgment since he was locked up for 1000 years.

at the end of this period which is called "THE Great White Throne Judgment" those that never repented, never turned to Christ are cast into the Lake of Fire,, this is the 3rd and final resurrection to condemnation

The First resurrection is to Spirit
the Second to flesh
the third to flesh and then to death.
.

 

[memberofthebride]

Comment:

Ezekiel 37; shows the 2nd resurrection after the 1000 years, the dead from day one, time of Adam, are raised to flesh and blood and will live for a life time, possibly 100 years, towards the end of this time Satan will be released for a very short time, the 2nd could be 100 billion are raised back to flesh and blood.

All humans must overcome human nature and the temptations of Satan before they are in the Kingdom

those born during the 1000 years will live 1000 years as they did at the beginning, and they also must be tempted by Satan during the Great white throne judgment since he was locked up for 1000 years.

at the end of this period which is called "THE Great White Throne Judgment" those that never repented, never turned to Christ are cast into the Lake of Fire,, this is the 3rd and final resurrection to condemnation

The First resurrection is to Spirit
the Second to flesh
the third to flesh and then to death.
.

sorry I missed the other question about the 144,000

I am not sure on this one, it is possible there are two groups of 144,000.
the First Resurrection is those before Christ came and those after, so knowing the number is small and scripture is not clear enough on this, I can only guess. my quess is under 1,200,000. it will be a number involving the number 12

 

[ATG]

A stranger could not become natural born, but Ezekiel prophesied that converts would receive an inheritance in the land

Already corrected your reading of Ezek. If you'd like to quote and address it, then maybe I can be corrected. Otherwise, my challenge stands as is.

Ezek 40-48 is only for natural Israelites serving the King in the priest's office, and inheriting the land during the His Millennium. The same law as that of OT will still apply: Only the children of strangers born of Israelites will inherit their portion of land, the same as Israelites born of natural Israelite parents.

Intermarriage with Israelites entitles their children to be the same as all natural born Israelites, with the same right of of the King's service and inheritance, as those old generations of Hebrew/Israelite/Jewish offspring.

Strangers and converts coming to settle in the inherited land of Israel, will not be able to buy and 'carve out' for themselves their own inheritance of Israelite land.

Jubilee forbids any such bought land to be newly inherited by another, but must be returned to the original inheritors.

This is the last time I'll quote the Scripture to you. Either accept it and correct your teaching accordingly, or we're done on this topic. Thanks.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Strangers and converts coming to settle in the inherited land of Israel, will not be able to buy and 'carve out' for themselves their own inheritance of Israelite land.

Ezekiel 47 says otherwise. Children of convert parents can't inherit land from their parents if they don't already own it. The issue with their children being considered natural born is that they won't have to convert like their parents did. It will be as if their parents are natural born, which by law they are.

 

[kovin3ii]

In Rev 7, the 144,000 are sealed in the forehead on earth. In Rev 14 the 144,000 are sealed with the name of the Father, and they are now standing with the Lamb of God on Mt Sion.

Therefore, the 144,000 are resurrected and ascended with the Lamb Jesus Christ. This must be the first resurrection of the blessed and holy saints of God. There are only two resurrections from the dead (Other than that of the man Jesus Christ), where the first resurrection is all saints, and the next resurrection of the rest of the dead, includes both the good and the bad, whose names are written and not written in the Lamb's book of life.

In Rev 7, the angels holding the winds still over the earth, are them that seal the servants of God in their foreheads. This is collectively altogether at once, just as the resurrection and immortal changing of the saints on earth, is collectively in a moment and twinkling of the eye.

The angels are standing at the four corners of the earth holding the four winds, which is also from where the resurrected saints will be gathered to meet and stand with Jesus in the air.

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And so, we have the first resurrection, rapture, and congregation with the Lord at His return to earth.

Your view is internally consistent, but it hinges on equating the 144,000 directly with the whole body of resurrected saints. Revelation never explicitly says the 144,000 are the entirety of the first resurrection. Revelation 7 and 14 describe a specific, numbered group tied to Israel, while Revelation 20 speaks of the first resurrection more broadly. That gap is where many see distinction rather than identity.

 

[ATG]

Our attitude towards the Jewish people should be the same as what Paul expressed, who said:
1Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is for their salvation.
(Romans 10:18)
He also said:
…2I have deep sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my own flesh and blood, 4the people of Israel.
(Romans 9:21)
This strong language reflected the grief and compassion of God to restore the fellowship He once had with them,

This is the same strong language any person feels for their own flesh and blood kindred and fellow national citizens.

Paul is in no way saying that the Jews by natural birth, are more beloved of God than any other person born of natural flesh and blood.

Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God loves all men and women equally created in His image, and born of the same one blood and seed of all nations.

It also reflected His desire to fulfill His word to Abraham.

God's promise to Abraham for all his natural seed is only land, not covenant. His covenant with Abraham was only by circumcision, which included his household servants. And the covenant promised to his natural offspring was only by law. Which included any converts from any nation.

God's promise of covenant to the seed of Abraham is only Christ, not to any natural seed on earth. Those born of God by the Spirit of Christ are called the children of Abraham and Isaac, as well as His Jews, more so than anyone naturally born:

Jhn 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Gal 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Rom 9:6
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Gal 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise….born after the Spirit.

Rom 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Your personal favoritism for one race of natural people on earth over others, is not the promised covenant nor gospel of God in Jesus Christ.

The Antisemitic hatred that has so often been poured out on the Jews comes out of the mouth of the Dragon and is an expression of the spirit of Antichrist,

Don't play your false race card on me.

Rev 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

You can play that card on Paul if you'd like:

1Th 2:14
For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

The wrath poured out from the Dragon is for the godliness of any saint of God, no matter the natural birth.

2Ti 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Rev 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The devil makes war with all saints on earth from among all nations, without respect to natural birth.

God is not a respecter of persons by how they are born. One race is not beloved by Him more than any other. Your racist eugenics doctrine of some master race, that is specially favored with God from birth, has been preached by many through history, whether Egyptian, Jewish, Hellenic, or Aryan Germanic.

Act 17:24
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Not accepting anyone's natural person by birth of blood and seed, is by faith in Scripture, not by racism of the believer nor God.

 

[ewq1938]

All mountains of the earth are on the Earth. The mountain in the air above the earth does not have dirt, rocks and volcanoes.

There are no mountains "in the air". All mountains are on the Earth.

 

[ATG]

Our attitude towards the Jewish people should be the same as what Paul expressed, who said:
.

Si, you are a Jew? You have Jewish kindred? If not, then why should your personal attitude toward the Jews be the same as the Jews for each other? What about your own natural kindred and citizenry? Are the Jews more important to you then them, because of what the Jews feel for one another? It's natural for any people to have special feeling and sympathy for one's own family, friends, and community.

We see here with common understanding, the whole problem of the 'Gentile vs Jew' doctrine falsely inserted into Scripture, especially in the NT.

Every Christian's attitude toward any person on earth, ought be as God says:

Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

There is no difference between natural birth nor national identity with God, especially not pertaining to His risen Son's covenant promise to whosever will repent for His name's sake.

And, so far as a Christian's personal desire for natural kindred and national citizenship, it's perfectly natural to have those special feelings toward them. But, it has absolutely nothing to do with God's love and desire to save any and all men, no matter flesh, blood, seed, nationality:

Mar 3:31
There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him. And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Pauls' natural Jewish desire for fellow Jews is the same as the Greek's natural Hellenic desire for fellow Greeks, the Russian's desire for Russians, Ethiopian for Ethiopian...It does not make any of their national kindred special toward God.

This pernicious Gentile vs Jew doctrine infecting the Bible, inevitably continues a pseudo-racial eugenics of segregation among the nations by blood and seed, and far worse in the one holy nation and body of Christ on earth.

It was first made up by latter day Jewish leaders, seeking to establish themselves alone as God's chosen covenant people by birth, not only by circumcision and law. And then taken up and codified into the whole Bible by wo-called Christians 'Gentiles' by false translation of Goyim/Ethnoi. Who agree with those Jewish leaders of old, that indeed there is natural covenant segregation between Gentiles and Jews from birth.

Mat 12:25
And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

 

[ATG]

Comment:.

So then, you're preaching a spiritual resurrection, not bodily, with a spiritual Millennium, not physically? That false prophecy has been ongoing for centuries, especially during the days of Catholic Christendom, where the Catholic service to God is to conquer/convert all nations...It's called the Catholic Church militant.

Of course, it's not a millennium, since it's already been for thousands of years, and not just the one thousand years prophesied in Scripture.

Ezekiel 37; shows the 2nd resurrection after the 1000 years, the dead from day one, time of Adam, are raised to flesh and blood and will live for a life time, possibly 100 years,.

Ezekiel 37 is not raising dead people back to mortal flesh and blood, to live naturally again on earth.

Eze 37:7
So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

Only flesh and bone. No blood.

Ezek 37 is a bodily resurrection to immortal flesh and bone, the same as Jesus Christ.

Luk 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

And, it's only saved Israel of God, not of any wicked dead. So, it must be the first resurrection of the saints, that is in the likeness of Jesus Christ.

Rom 6:5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Rev 20:5
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Eze 37:10
So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel:

It's the fullness of the nations come into the grafted Israel of God, which will be the bodily resurrection wedding of Christ and His beloved church:

Gen 2:23
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

towards the end of this time Satan will be released for a very short time, the 2nd could be 100 billion are raised back to flesh and blood.
.

The next resurrection after the thousand years, is the rest of the dead unto judgment of works at the GWT.

All humans must overcome human nature and the temptations of Satan before they are in the Kingdom .

Yes, all people that sinned, must repent for Jesus' sake and be born of the Spirit into His kingdom.

those born during the 1000 years will live 1000 years as they did at the beginning,.

The longest natural life of any man was 969 years, not 1000. Your 100 years and 100 billion stuff is made up. No Bible for it.

I only teach Scripture, and only receive teaching of Scripture. I have no interest in personal imaginations.

Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

and they also must be tempted by Satan during the Great white throne judgment since he was locked up for 1000 years.

The GWT judgment is of the rest of the resurrected dead, after Satan is loosed at the end of the Millennium. He'll lead one last rebellion of nations against the Lord, and be devoured by fire without war.

You do two things wrong when trying to teach the Bible: You don't teach it as written, and you add your own personal imagination to it.

Rev 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

at the end of this period which is called "THE Great White Throne Judgment" those that never repented, never turned to Christ are cast into the Lake of Fire,, this is the 3rd and final resurrection to condemnation

Now you've skipped the judgment of works by books.

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The First resurrection is to Spirit
the Second to flesh
the third to flesh and then to death.
.

The first bodily resurrection is Jesus Christ
The first resurrection of all His saints, is the first resurrection of His church.
The next resurrection is of all the rest of the dead after a thousand years. They will be all the wicked since Cain, and all the saved saints during the Millennium.

At that bodily resurrection is the GWT judgment of works, where the saints of the Millennium will be found written in the Lamb's book of life, and the wicked of all history will not be found therein, and cast into the LOF.