144,000: The first resurrection and rapture of the church
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Ok, so now your picture gets even clearer. You're not talking about strangers becoming Israeli-Jews by conversion, nor of their offspring by Israeli Jews having inheritance among their tribes.
You're talking about strangers buying land of an inheritance, and then 'inheriting' it for their offspring, even as born strangers to Israel. I.e. a Syrian could buy Israeli land and possess it, and their Syrian offspring can inherit it among the tribes of Israel...
Strangers could not buy any land of inheritance, being promised only to the seed of Abraham. Much less inherit it as foreigners in the land forever...
Only a fellow Israelite neighbor could buy another neighbor's possession.
Lev 25:14
And if thou sell ought unto thy neighbour, or buyest ought of thy neighbour's hand, ye shall not oppress one another:
And then in the year of Jubilee, that possession must be returned to the original owner of his inheritance.
And even in these cases, the land of possession is to be returned to the family's inheritance, so that it cannot be inherited by the the neighbor's offspring.
And if that convert came with his convert wife and had a kid and inherited land of a tribe, that would completely invalidate God's promise of the land for inheritance to Abraham's seed. Because there would be no natural seed of Abraham in them.
Your effort to have strangers inherit and possess land among the children of Israel, is invalid.
It's exactly what the verses I quoted say. A convert became an Israelite sharing the same rights and privileges as all other Israelites descended from Abraham. He could buy land and give it as an inheritance to his offspring born of a convert wife. This fact completely undermines and invalidates your claim that someone had to have Abraham's DNA to own land, or be part of a tribe, in Israel.
Well done. You've corrected me. Thanks much. I am the one failing basic comprehension in haste, due to the context of the argument.
You are correct in part: You have the presenting of people to the Lord by others, but in reverse. It's not Jews presenting people of other nations to the Lord, but rather at the Lord's return and Millennium kingdom, it's the scattered remnant of Israeli-Jews on earth, who will be presented to King at His house for service.
Isa 66:8
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.
Isa 66:19
And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
The children of Zion and Jerusalem shall be rescued in the day of the Lord's coming, and they shall preach His name among the nations. Those nations shall bring their brethren of Zion to Jerusalem for an offering to the Lord. And, some of them presented to the Lord, shall He also make for priests and Levites in His Millennial house.
Eze 44:7
In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.
Eze 44:9
Thus saith the Lord GOD; No children, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any child that is among the children of Israel.
They shall not be uncircumcised strangers present by the Jews, but only circumcised children of Israel presented by the nations.
Eze 44:10
And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity. Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.
And they shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.
And only of those circumcised children of Israel, that are also circumcised in heart, shall be chosen for priests and Levites to the Lord at His throne. They shall not include any Levites that disobeyed Him, who shall be ministers at the gates. And certainly not any uncircumcision strangers shall enter at all.
The Lord is not going to do the evil of the rebellious Levites, by having evil done for Himself what they did in the first place:
Eze 44:7
In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.
So, your correction in part is good, that the remnant of circumcised children of Zion scattered among the nations, will be personally escorted by those nations, and be presented to the King for ministerial service at the gates, and also of them that are circumcised of heart, they will be put in the office of priests as Levites in the most holy things.
When all that matters is right interpretation of Scripture, then any help is good. Thanks for your correcting help.
The whole point is that natural distinctions don't mean anything to God's covenants. God's covenant is only interested in the spiritual seed of Abraham, which is Christ, of which we all are born that believe on His name.
Gal 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Jhn 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1Jo 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed Christ remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Only scriptural people in belief fixate on natural things promised in Scripture: The promised land and ministerial service of the King to the natural seed of Abraham.
Gen 48:4
And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.
The land promise to Abraham and his natural seed remains to be fulfilled, and is separate from the covenant promise to his spiritual seed, Christ Jesus.
The error is conflating God's land promise to natural seed, with His covenant promise to spiritual seed. The correction is that God is fulfilling His covenant promise by Christ to the children of Abraham by faith, and shall fulfill His land promise by Christ's return to the children of Abraham by flesh.
I'm hung up on what the text says and does not say. It does not say what you are saying.
Nope. It includes the stranger not only their children.
Eze 47:23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.
A gentile and their children would receive the same inheritance of the tribe they sojourned with. Nothing more for the children and nothing less for their parents, and nothing at all about anyone becoming a direct part of the tribe as in a natural born Israelite was.
It definitely never states anywhere that tribal membership was based solely on natural descent. That was the main factor, of course, but not the only one, and not an exclusive one, as the scripture I have shared makes clear. Tribal membership based solely on natural descent is something that is being read into the text by you and some others for some reason.
Tribalism tends to produce all manner of evil, so I find it peculiar that Christians project that racist characteristic onto God, as if maintaining racial purity is something that is important to him. Jacob giving the birthright and all of the promises to Abraham, Isaac and himself to his half-Egyptian adopted son should inform us that genetics mean nothing to God spiritually. Natural descent was important to him at that time in order to maintain a people of the book through which the savior of the world could be born, but it has no meaning now since God's people have transcended above such base earthly considerations.
So instead of responding to me in a demeaning, sarcastic way like you have since this interaction between us began, why don't you explain the reasoning behind your belief and explain why my understanding is not.
God said there was one law for both natural born and convert. That included the law of love. Love doesn't show partiality, which is sin.
So, this is what you meant by Gnosticism, since they were fanatics about allegory, symbolism, mysticism, mythology...
It's a fair point; however, the NT Israel of God isn't gnostic allegory, but standing on the solid ground of being His holy nation on earth, and members of His holy temple and body:
Mar 3:33
And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Eph 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Gnostics would be the ones to relegate NT Israel after the Spirit into the air, like 'spiritual' beings without natural bodies on solid ground.
Some Christians trying to keep covenant with Israel after the flesh, play Gnostics by saying NT 'spiritual Israel' can't be the 144,000 tribes, because it isn't a nation on earth...Therefore, only the tribes of natural Israel can possibly be the tribes of Israel prophesied and sealed by the living God in the NT.
Here are the main NT doctrinal problems with the children of Israel sealed by the living God in Rev 7 is only from natural Israel, and not from other nations:
1. The Jews and non-Jews are segregated from one another in the body of Christ, so that there is a sealed distinction between Jew and Greek.
Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
1Co 12:25
That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 3:4
For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
Whether Paul a Jew, or Apollos a Greek, all are the same ministers and servants of the Lord.
Rev 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
2. In order not to segregate Jews from Greeks in God's service, for all the 144,000 sealed children of Israel to be from natural Israel, the Israel of God in the NT is not the holy nation and body of Christ:
Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
The NT Israel of God is only in Christ Jesus.
3. In order not to segregate Jews from Greeks in the NT Israel of God, then the NT 144,000 sealed children of Israel is not the NT Israel of God, and not part of the body of Christ.
Therefore, there are 2 Israel's on earth, with 2 sealed covenants of God for service at the same time; One after the Spirit, and another after the flesh.
Heb 8:7
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Therefore, that old covenant for those old tribes of natural Israel on earth, is not dead, but is still alive with God. But is not with the risen Lamb of God. And so, the LORD is not one God with one covenant, or God and Son are not one.
Mar 12:32
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Jhn 10:30
I and my Father are one.
1Jo 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
So, you're not denying Rev 7 is the first resurrection, but only saying it's the born again spiritual resurrection.
If so, then the sealing is that of the Holy Ghost for all Christians in Christ Jesus.
2Co 1:21
Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Therefore, the 144,000 must be the summation of all Christians on earth, or there are two separate sealings of the Spirit, which is false.
1Co 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Or, there is a sealed segregation between Jew and non Jew in the body of Christ, if they must all be from natural Israel after the flesh. Which is a worse fault:
Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
1Co 12:25
That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 3:4
For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
Whether Paul a Jew, or Apollos a Greek, all are the same ministers and servants of the Lord.
Rev 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
1Co 15:35
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:42
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The context is of raising the dead natural body. It is the natural body sown in corruption; It is the dead body raised in incorruption.
1Co 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Rev 20:5
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
It is the blessed first resurrection of the dead in Christ at His return, when their flesh and blood corrupted bodies will be raised and changed to incorruption and immortality, to inherit the kingdom of God with the Lord forever.
It's not the ongoing spiritual sealing of newborn babes in Christ, but is that resurrection of the body in the likeness of Christ raised from the dead, when the end is brought to pass and Death is swallowed up in victory.
Once again, the context is the natural vile body, not the inner spiritual man of Christ. Our natural vile bodies are not now changed incorrupt and immortal like Jesus' resurrected body from the dead.
And anyone who says the natural vile bodies are already resurrected into the glorious bodies like Christ's, are erring in their minds:
2Ti 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Rev 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Since it's the second resurrection of the rest of the dead, then so is the first resurrection from the dead. And if the second is not resurrection of the dead body, then it's also only another spiritual resurrection like the first.
And thus, there is no resurrection of the dead body, but only of the spirit, and Christ is not risen from the dead:
1Co 15:14
And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
Although being born again within, can be described as a 'resurrection' of the inner man, it's not specifically called that in NT Scripture. And by doing so, we see the confusion of spiritualizing things as being only spiritual, when they are in deed and in truth physical.
This is why those Scriptures don't necessarily repeat 'body' in every verse, since it's being written for people with natural understanding, and not for spiritualizing things into something confusing and called error by Scripture...
comment
there are three resurrections, the first is to eternal life in spirit bodies and the 144,000 are in that resurrection, they are the last called before the return of Christ, they come out of the Tribulation.
The second resurrection is all those that were never called and never even heard the name of Christ,those in the flood of Noah, all the pagans, the children that died in childhood ect. they are raised back to human life and given their one opportunity for eternal life. this is possibly a 100 or more billion. even the 6 billion alive to day have no or little knowledge of Christ or even held a Bible.
the third resurrection is for all that refused to obey, they reject God and what He is offering; these are cast into the Lake of Fire and are dead for eternity.
Every single person that has or will ever live will have an opportunity for the gift of eternal life
It doesn't ever say it isn't, and everything it does ay on the topic is that it was through lineage. Paul speaks of gentiles being grafted to Israel, but never states the grafting is to specific tribes.
The bible only speaks of two resurrections for the dead in mass, the resurrection to damnation and the resurrection to life. There is not another.
Here they are (this was to disprove the one resurrection heresy but it also disproves the idea of three):
Revelation 20 speaks of two groups of the dead that resurrect/live again.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The first resurrection is the resurrection of this first group of the dead because they resurrect first. The rest of the dead have to wait for their resurrection:
"the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev 20:5)
This is the last resurrection of those who are dead. One group resurrected and "the rest" or the remaining ones did not resurrect when the others did.
This proves they partake of the second resurrection also known as the last resurrection because no one is still physically dead after they "live again". This also proves without a doubt that there are two separate days of resurrection separated by a thousand years and how long that actually is doesn't matter.
Part of the dead resurrect and then "the rest of the dead" will resurrect after a period of time. That's the dead resurrecting in two parts separated by a period of time.
The first group resurrects before the thousand years begins and the second/last group resurrects after the end of the thousand years.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
First group resurrection: "to everlasting life"
Second group resurrection: "to shame and everlasting contempt"
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation
First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
First group resurrection: "the just"
Second group resurrection: the "unjust"
Take note that in every passage where the resurrection of the saved and unsaved are mentioned that the saved or just is always mentioned first. That's important because it is they that resurrect first! Scripture never deviates from this order. Revelation, John, Daniel and Acts all say the saved first, then the unsaved in that exact order.
Luk 14:12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.
Luk 14:13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
He did not say the resurrection of the just and unjust. He said only the just. Again, this is evidence of two separate resurrections. The resurrection of the just is only of the just, no one else.
What we learn from these verses is that there are two resurrections. One resurrection is to life and the other resurrection is to damnation and contempt. Two resurrections! Never is there a single resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous at the same time.