144,000: The first resurrection and rapture of the church

[Psalm1]

Not the 'hyper-differentiation', but denying his Jewish heritage is correct.

Phl 3:5
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Phl 3:7
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Paul did count being a Jew as nothing but dung, so far as being a Christian apostle in the body of Christ. That he may glorify Christ in his new spiritual birth of God.

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Judaizing is simply Christians still hung up on OT Israel and the natural Israeli-Jews. Whether demanding outward circumcision, or separating super-elite sealed servants of God, from the rest of the lowly non-Jewish Christian schlubs.

I personally believe much of it is relatively harmless, with just nostalgia for old ancient days coming back again, or perhaps lack of self-esteem or confidence as just another natural born gentile among so many others...

The Jews were not in error for not being a gentile.

Their Jewishness was in no way a game changer either way.
Now ALL MEN CAN BE SAVED.

The elephant in the room is "covenant"

If you jetison the 2 wives, end times is a shallow study.

That is why all the confusion exists, and WHY so many stumble over the 144,000.

 

[Psalm1]

So Jesus dying for all men, and not the Jews only, and rising again for the justification of all that repent, is 'hyper-differentiation' between Jew and Greek.

That's pretty much says it all about the Judaizing spirit.

You do not understand covenant.
So you make those wild accusations.
IOW, you are guessing at what the true dynamic is concerning how God is dealing with his Jewish covenant people.

Once a " replacement theology" path is CHOSEN, the logical conclusion is anti semitism.
The choice has a destructive end

 

[Psalm1]

Still waiting for the two wives. Are they married to the two covenants of two different people on earth today? What are the two covenant husbands?



So, this is all about personal new revelation of prophecy.

Don't overrate yourself. You're not at all scary.

QUOTE
Still waiting for the two wives. Are they married to the two covenants of two different people on earth today? What are the two covenant husbands?

Gomer is the wayward wife.
Ruth is the bride of Christ.

The 2chusbands are tge Father and Jesus the Son is the other.

The typology is fascinating.

ALL MY ESCHATOLOGY is based on that ingredient.
That is my prism for all of end times.

The bible ends with the bride calling out to the groom.

Just yesterday a brand new dynamic (Revelation from heaven) was revealed through a sister in the Lord.

It came about as we were discussing the bride.

That is how you know you are on track. The word confirms the personal Revelation.

That word "scary" was unable to be edited.
This forum has a 5 min rule.
So mistakes stay.

It was a typo.
I never see myself as scary.

 

[Psalm1]

The people of the old Testament have all vanished to their graves, with some to hell and some to the presence of the Lord.

Dittoes with many people of the new Testament, with many remaining alive on earth today.

Anyone preaching two different covenants with two different people on earth today, is preaching a two-headed false christ.

Rev 13:1
And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.

It looks like the last great false christ will have seven covenants with seven different people. Now that's multi-tasking for the devil...



You've mentioned this 'two wives' thing before. Why not just explain it, rather than leaving it such a mystery. Is it the present two different wives of the two different covenants of the two different people on earth? If so, then I can imagine where it's coming from:

Rev 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Ruth is the Gentile bride.
It is in the new Testament.
The bride of Christ.
The Bible ends in that dynamic. And we see the bride calling out to the groom wanting to be with him in heaven.

The Jewish people are covenant people.
They are the wayward wife. They are the wife that's "gone awhoring"

It is illustrated in Hoshea, and it is illustrated in that last story of judges.

Abraham and Isaac had wives.
The father and son have wives.

The 2 separate covenants.
It is allegory.

If you ever "catch" on the allegory, your entire eschatology will be affected.

 

[Psalm1]

The firstfruits harvest began with Jesus resurrecting from the dead, and ends with the first resurrection of His church at His second coming.

The whole fruits harvest begins and ends with the rest of the dead living again a thousand years later. Many will then be saints harvested from the Millennium, and found written in the Book of Life, and many will be the wicked tares from all the earth since Cain.

Only the OT and NT saints harvested unto life at the Lord's return, is the fullness of firstfruits harvest of God by the risen Lord from the air:

Rev 14:14
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Rev 14:15
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.



False. Coming out of graves to live again on earth, are not resurrections from the dead, anymore than others such as the Shunamite son, Jairus' daughter, Lazarus, etc...

The OT saints rising from the dead to live again on earth, were not resurrections from the dead before Jesus Christ, nor after His resurrection, including sister Dorcus...



Sister Dorcus wasn't a saint?

Scripture always knows how to rebuke false teaching, either by written doctrine or by recorded event.

And also, Jesus began to build His church the night of His resurrection, when He met with Mary Magdalene, and she confessed Him Lord risen from the dead.

Jhn 20:16
Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Thomas finally came around by sight to faith in Jesus' resurrection 8 days later:

Jhn 20:27
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me,

Jesus also breathed the Spirit upon many before His ascension. And of course, the apostles were already His chosen saints to receive the Lord's commandments for His church before His ascension:

Act 1:1
In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen.

Pentecost was the first outpouring of the Holy Ghost upon Jesus' saints, and their first preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ.


And of course now you're preaching the first resurrection is already past:

2Ti 2:17
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Along with the true doctrine of Christ by His apostles, there have already been false doctrines, many of which are rebuked in NT Scripture.




Except that the resurrection has not past, and so all old and new dead saints in Christ, shall be resurrected together at the Lord's return to earth.

Which Job prophecies for himself as well:

Job 19:25
For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God,

Resurrected Jesus Christ is not yet standing upon the earth for all to see, including resurrected Job. He must first come again with clouds for all to see from the earth.

Rev 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

As I said, Scripture by doctrine and recorded event rebukes every falsehood about the Lord and His word. And it truly is a marvelous thing to see, such as here, where one Scripture from the Book of Job proves, that Paul is speaking of all OT and NT Saints that die, and are resurrected together at the Lord's coming again to earth:

1 Th 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

There is no resurrection at the second coming on white horses of revelation 19.
That doctrine started with The NIV Bible when it incorrectly worded the martyrs that are awarded thrones.
In the NIV, it says "and they came to life."
But the in the Greek and in the king James, it says "they lived."
Some people ran with that, and thought that they were resurrected right before the millennium, which is totally bogus.

At the man's Bible study that I attend 3 times a week. The guy that is our teacher. Had The NIV Bible.
With all it's glaring mistakes.
A couple of us finally convinced him to get rid of that thing and get a real Bible. It took a lot of convincing, but that ambillical chord to that Bogus Bible finally got cut.

 

[ATG]

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
(PARSING: After Jesus is RESURRECTED 1st/BTW on FIRSTFRUITS/Nisan 16. Then many saints are RESURRECTED!)

1st, This recorded RESURRECTION event happens 50 days before the Acts 2 Pentecost. So, their are NO body of Christ/Church Saints in this FIRSTFRIUTS resurrection event.

Neither were there any OT saints resurrected from their graves:

Act 2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Job 19:25
For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God,

Both Job and David still await the resurrection of their dead bodies, at the return of Jesus Christ to earth.

 

[FlyingDove]

Neither were there any OT saints resurrected from their graves:

Act 2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Job 19:25
For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God,

Both Job and David still await the resurrection of their dead bodies, at the return of Jesus Christ to earth.

The discussion was the 144k. I made no mention of David or Job. Neither, David nor Job were virgins, that would disqualify them.

In an earlier reply you said: Just let scripture say what scripture say's. My post did that:

Matt 27:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
(PARSING: Jesus dies/on Passover/Nisan 14)

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
(PARSING: Jesus rips the Temple veil in 1/2 on the way to paradise)

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(PARSING: Many SOULS are RESURRECTED!)

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
(PARSING: After Jesus is RESURRECTED 1st/BTW on FIRSTFRUITS/Nisan 16. Then many saints are RESURRECTED!)

1st, This recorded RESURRECTION event happens 50 days before the Acts 2 Pentecost. So, their are NO body of Christ/Church Saints in this FIRSTFRIUTS resurrection event.

2ndly, The Rev 14: 144k are part of this recorded FIRSTFRUITS RESURRECTION event.

Rev 14:
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him a 144k, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
(PARSING: These 144k were redeemed from the earth)

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
(PARSING: "Redeemed From Among Men" being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God & to the Lamb)

REREADING Rev 14:1-4, 144k are > FIRSTFRUITS/"Redeemed From Among Men")

This language is directly lifted from the Lev 23:9-11 FIRSTFRUITS wave offering. They are the first portion of a larger SOUL HARVEST to come. These OT saints are set apart & presented to God.

These 144k that were sleeping/dead. literally rise-up, right after Jesus on the feast of firstfruits Are the Bible says they are:


"Redeemed From Among Men" being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God & to the Lamb.

Scripture Matt 27:52-53 says graves were open & MANY that were sleeping/DEAD rose right after Jesus rose & were seen by many.

"Redeemed From Among Men" being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God & to the Lamb.

That's what scripture says. Yet, you say that's not true.

 

[Psalm1]

10

Neither were there any OT saints resurrected from their graves:

Act 2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Job 19:25
For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God,

Both Job and David still await the resurrection of their dead bodies, at the return of Jesus Christ to earth.

100 % false.
They, ( the ones you missed or something) were seen RESURRECTED and recognized, walking in Jerusalem.

Really?
You never studied " paradise emptied" ?

 

[ATG]

Rev 7:
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
(PARSING: 144k from ALL the TRIBES of ISRAEL. Vrs 7:5-8 confirm 12,000 x 12 tribes - 144,000)

5 Of the tribe of Juda, Reuben & Gad .

6 Of the tribe of Aser, Nepthalim & Manassas

7 Of the tribe of Simeon, Levi & Issachar

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon, Joseph & Benjamin
(PARSING: Verses 5-8 confirm 12k ea x 12 tribes = 144,000 & NAMES the Israelite TRIBES they come from)

Gen 32:28 God changed Jacob's name to Israel. The 12 tribes of Israel are Jacob/Israel's sons. Each son received a land portion (except Levi/Levites they become the priesthood) Joseph receives a double portion of land (Gen 48) & it's divided between his 2 sons Ephraim & Manasseh.

Rev 14:
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him a 144k, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
(PARSING: These 144k are REDEEMED from the earth)

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
(PARSING: "Redeemed From Among Men" being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God & to the Lamb)

Parsing vs 4
(A) 144k ALL VIRGINS)
(B) These 144k were REDEEMED from AMONG MEN)
(C) Being FIRSTFRUITS onto God & to the Lamb.

The Rev 4 language is directly lifted from the Lev 23:9-11 wave offering. They're the 1st portion of a larger harvest, set apart & presented to God.

The category itself is Israelite, because the firstfruits offering was tied to Israel's land covenant.

The Israelites practiced the firstfruits (resurrection foreshadowing) wave offering every Passover week for over 1400 yrs. John calling the 144k "firstfruits" supports their identity as being literal Israelites.

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(PARSING: Christ is 1st to rise/resurrected from the grave)

Matt 27:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
(PARSING: Jesus dies)

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
(PARSING: Jesus rips the Temple veil in 1/2 on the way to paradise)

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(PARSING: Many saints are resurrected)

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
(PARSING: Jesus rises 1st, then others are resurrected. REREADING Rev 14:1-4, 144k = FIRSTFRUITS, "Redeemed From Among Men")

The Matt 27:52-53 cites these OT elect that rise after Jesus as firstfruits that rise from the grave & they're seen by many!

These firstfruits are resurrected BEFORE there is a church.

Jesus rises then 50 days later comes the Acts 2 Pentecost, where the CHURCH via the Holy Spirit outpouring BEGINS.

Repeating your own ideas can be done independently.

If you want to directly challenge in point of mind, and show error in it. Then I'll be glad to look at it.

 

[Psalm1]

Repeating your own ideas can be done independently.

If you want to directly challenge in point of mind, and show error in it. Then I'll be glad to look at it.

Pot <> Kettle.

Yawn

 

[FlyingDove]

Repeating your own ideas can be done independently.

If you want to directly challenge in point of mind, and show error in it. Then I'll be glad to look at it.

I made my case, you made your & we disagree. I'm gonna leave it at that. Best wishes, FB

 

[ATG]

You make a good point regarding the translation of "Ethnous".
I can remember being taught that it can be translated "Gentiles" or "Nations" interchangeably, and depending on the context.
I am now considering that the use of the word "Gentiles" may have been just one big confusing mistake.

Exactly. Prophetically and now doctrinally, Gentile was never an exact translation and a mistaken interpretation. In the OT and NT, there was only goy and ethnos for nation. As well as for Hellenic Greeks:

Rom 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Hellene (Gentile); But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Hellene (Gentile):

'Gentile' is only a word made up solely for interpretation, that would separate uncircumcised nations vs circumcised national Israel; I.e. uncircumcised goyim vs circumcised goy of Israel.

Gen 10:5
By these were the isles of the Gentiles (Goy) divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations (Goy)

The first appearance of 'Gentiles' is only a throw-back interpretation, that foreshadows the separation between the circumcised goy of Israel, and all other 'Gentile' goyim. And the only reason 'Gentiles' could be used here, is because the goy of Israel would not be that of the isles.

Gen 10:31
These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations

We see here that 'Gentiles' is not used for all those goyim of the lands, which in future would also include the goy of Israel.

Gen 12:2
And I will make of thee a great nation (goy), and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

And finally we see here, that the great nation of Israel sprung from Abraham, is a goy.

In the OT, 'Gentile' could be an accepted interpretation for uncircumcised nations, as distinct from the Israelite nation circumcised to the God of Israel. However that interpretive allowance ends, when the goy of Israel has Jesus Christ crucified to death:

Jhn 11:48
If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

We see here, that the high priest was arguing for their own nation, not for the nation founded by the God of Israel, the Israel of God.

Jer 9:25
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

Act 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Why did those nationalist Jews rush to stone Stephen after this? Because by the Spirit, he was calling them uncircumcised goy,

Rom 2:25
For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

For the same reason they persecuted Paul, when calling their nation uncircumcised to God.

Natural Israel after the flesh knowingly made themselves just another goy/ethnos of their own on earth. They are now uncircumcised 'Gentile' to God.

And, if any of those nations being uncircumcised to Jesus Christ, can be called Gentiles, then all of them must be called Gentiles, whether Jew or Greek.

Rom 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew (Gentile) first, and also of the Hellene (Gentile); But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew (Gentile) first, and also to the gentile Hellene (Gentile).

If the Hellenos can be doctrinally made Gentile, then so can the Ioudaios, for there is now no respect of persons after the flesh, but only the circumcision of Christ after the Spirit.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

In Rev 7, the 144,000 are sealed in the forehead on earth. In Rev 14 the 144,000 are sealed with the name of the Father, and they are now standing with the Lamb of God on Mt Sion.

Therefore, the 144,000 are resurrected and ascended with the Lamb Jesus Christ. This must be the first resurrection of the blessed and holy saints of God. There are only two resurrections from the dead (Other than that of the man Jesus Christ), where the first resurrection is all saints, and the next resurrection of the rest of the dead, includes both the good and the bad, whose names are written and not written in the Lamb's book of life.

In Rev 7, the angels holding the winds still over the earth, are them that seal the servants of God in their foreheads. This is collectively altogether at once, just as the resurrection and immortal changing of the saints on earth, is collectively in a moment and twinkling of the eye.

The angels are standing at the four corners of the earth holding the four winds, which is also from where the resurrected saints will be gathered to meet and stand with Jesus in the air.

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And so, we have the first resurrection, rapture, and congregation with the Lord at His return to earth.

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:4‬ ‭


“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12‬ ‭

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬


….“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1‬ ‭

“until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:4‬ ‭

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Psalm1]

Exactly. Prophetically and now doctrinally, Gentile was never an exact translation and a mistaken interpretation. In the OT and NT, there was only goy and ethnos for nation. As well as for Hellenic Greeks:

Rom 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Hellene (Gentile); But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Hellene (Gentile):

'Gentile' is only a word made up solely for interpretation, that would separate uncircumcised nations vs circumcised national Israel; I.e. uncircumcised goyim vs circumcised goy of Israel.

Gen 10:5
By these were the isles of the Gentiles (Goy) divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations (Goy)

The first appearance of 'Gentiles' is only a throw-back interpretation, that foreshadows the separation between the circumcised goy of Israel, and all other 'Gentile' goyim. And the only reason 'Gentiles' could be used here, is because the goy of Israel would not be that of the isles.

Gen 10:31
These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations

We see here that 'Gentiles' is not used for all those goyim of the lands, which in future would also include the goy of Israel.

Gen 12:2
And I will make of thee a great nation (goy), and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

And finally we see here, that the great nation of Israel sprung from Abraham, is a goy.

In the OT, 'Gentile' could be an accepted interpretation for uncircumcised nations, as distinct from the Israelite nation circumcised to the God of Israel. However that interpretive allowance ends, when the goy of Israel has Jesus Christ crucified to death:

Jhn 11:48
If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

We see here, that the high priest was arguing for their own nation, not for the nation founded by the God of Israel, the Israel of God.

Jer 9:25
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

Act 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Why did those nationalist Jews rush to stone Stephen after this? Because by the Spirit, he was calling them uncircumcised goy,

Rom 2:25
For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

For the same reason they persecuted Paul, when calling their nation uncircumcised to God.

Natural Israel after the flesh knowingly made themselves just another goy/ethnos of their own on earth. They are now uncircumcised 'Gentile' to God.

And, if any of those nations being uncircumcised to Jesus Christ, can be called Gentiles, then all of them must be called Gentiles, whether Jew or Greek.

Rom 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew (Gentile) first, and also of the Hellene (Gentile); But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew (Gentile) first, and also to the gentile Hellene (Gentile).

If the Hellenos can be doctrinally made Gentile, then so can the Ioudaios, for there is now no respect of persons after the flesh, but only the circumcision of Christ after the Spirit.

Yes " nations"
Or
" other than Jews"
Or " non Jewish"
Basically, how we still use the term "gentiles", today.

 

[Psalm1]

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:4‬ ‭


“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12‬ ‭

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬


….“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1‬ ‭

“until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:4‬ ‭

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You took several concepts.
Are you trying to blenderize them into preterist?

If so I am glad I am not in that trap.

 

[Psalm1]

Exactly. Prophetically and now doctrinally, Gentile was never an exact translation and a mistaken interpretation. In the OT and NT, there was only goy and ethnos for nation. As well as for Hellenic Greeks:

Rom 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Hellene (Gentile); But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Hellene (Gentile):

'Gentile' is only a word made up solely for interpretation, that would separate uncircumcised nations vs circumcised national Israel; I.e. uncircumcised goyim vs circumcised goy of Israel.

Gen 10:5
By these were the isles of the Gentiles (Goy) divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations (Goy)

The first appearance of 'Gentiles' is only a throw-back interpretation, that foreshadows the separation between the circumcised goy of Israel, and all other 'Gentile' goyim. And the only reason 'Gentiles' could be used here, is because the goy of Israel would not be that of the isles.

Gen 10:31
These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations

We see here that 'Gentiles' is not used for all those goyim of the lands, which in future would also include the goy of Israel.

Gen 12:2
And I will make of thee a great nation (goy), and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

And finally we see here, that the great nation of Israel sprung from Abraham, is a goy.

In the OT, 'Gentile' could be an accepted interpretation for uncircumcised nations, as distinct from the Israelite nation circumcised to the God of Israel. However that interpretive allowance ends, when the goy of Israel has Jesus Christ crucified to death:

Jhn 11:48
If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

We see here, that the high priest was arguing for their own nation, not for the nation founded by the God of Israel, the Israel of God.

Jer 9:25
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

Act 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Why did those nationalist Jews rush to stone Stephen after this? Because by the Spirit, he was calling them uncircumcised goy,

Rom 2:25
For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

For the same reason they persecuted Paul, when calling their nation uncircumcised to God.

Natural Israel after the flesh knowingly made themselves just another goy/ethnos of their own on earth. They are now uncircumcised 'Gentile' to God.

And, if any of those nations being uncircumcised to Jesus Christ, can be called Gentiles, then all of them must be called Gentiles, whether Jew or Greek.

Rom 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew (Gentile) first, and also of the Hellene (Gentile); But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew (Gentile) first, and also to the gentile Hellene (Gentile).

If the Hellenos can be doctrinally made Gentile, then so can the Ioudaios, for there is now no respect of persons after the flesh, but only the circumcision of Christ after the Spirit.

Maybe you are trying to emphasize replacement theology.

Both sides of the debate embrace those verses 100%.

But replacement theology and the other doctrine of omission ( postrib rapture), depend on reinventing clear bible meaning, and the biggie ...(OMISSION).
It is the nature of their error.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

It's not a list of natural tribes. That's the point.
Scripture does not break scripture so it must be understood with wisdom from above, not naturally. QUOTE]
What evidence do you have this special "wisdom from above that informs us the names of the tribes means something OTHER THAN what the words in the text mean.

This sounds like how the Gnostics interpreted the scriptures. They did not accept the plain meaning of the word. Instead they assumed the Bible was a code book of types and allegories which could only be understood by SPECIAL REVELATION. Usually this consulting ones own feelings or imaginations to discover some secret underlying type or allegory. This resulted in the proliferation of opinions out of which numerous sects arose, each of which had a different revelation of what each scripture passage meant.

.

 

[Aaron56]

This sounds like how the Gnostics interpreted the scriptures.
.

No it's not. Try something else.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Naw was just showing that each testament promises one resurrection to the people in that covenant . But apparently you didn’t notice

 

[JimiSurvivor]

No it's not. Try something else.

I was not randomly trying out different ideas. That was how the Gnostic sects arose - by assuming the Bible was a code book of types and allegories which the "Enlightened" could interpret as they they were led by their personal feelings and associations. You seem to think gratuitous denials like "No it's not." are sufficient to defend your views...but they are not.