144,000: The first resurrection and rapture of the church

[ATG]

The bible calls them messianic Jews...indirectly.

An example of a private interpretation of Scripture, trying to become prophecy of Scripture...

2Pe 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

"They follow the Lamb wherever he goes" Born again Jews.

An example of messianic Judaizing, where only born again Jews can follow the Lamb wherever He goes. Just as only born again circumcised Jews can be saved...

Act 15:1
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

 

[ATG]

I am saying Rev 14 Only fits the gathering of the Jews from romans 9-11.

Rom 9:6
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Rom 10:1
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 11:17
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;...they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Scripture is saying Romans 9-11 can fit the gathering of Jews and Gentiles into the olive tree Israel of God.

Modern Judaizers say Scripture can only fit the gathering of Jews into the olive tree Israel of God. (Gentiles can't even get circumcised into it anymore...)

Jhn 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

The prophesy of the NT is gathering from all nations into one holy nation the children of God. NT Scripture does not contradict itself by gathering only Jews into one children of God, of their own...

There is no Israeli-Jewish exclusivity in the NT Israel of God, nor in service to the living God:

Heb 9:12
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

[ATG]

The discussion is Rom chapter 11's message. Start a thread on Gal if you want to discuss it.

I know some sites have restrictions against straying from the thread topic, but I don't mind.

And the fact is that Rev 11 & 14 is the topic chapters. But both Gal 4 and Rom 11 having something to say about the 144,000 being the summation of all the Spirit-born graffed Israel of God, serving the living God, and sealed in their foreheads at the Lord's return...

The First resurrection of the saints in Christ Jesus, while all winds are held still, and angels on earth seal all Old and New Covenant saints, that are now resurrecting from the dead and changing immortal in the twinkle of an eye...

 

[ATG]

Trying to decipher what your point is, or are you just being a nit-picker?

One man's Bible-quoter is another man's nit-picker. I.e. Quoting Scripture in detail corrects Scriptures sloppily handled.

1Jo 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2Co 4:2
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every

I'll nit-pick with Scripture in order to keep the first, and avoid the sloppy second.

You want to throw around your own personal ideas, and even try to call it Bible, then go ahead. Just don't do it to me...

 

[ATG]

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Here's a challenge for you, or for anyone else who wants to. Show us one verse in Romans 9-11, excluding Romans 11:26, that says anything other than a remnant is saved.

If you can't do that then we have to conclude that Romans 11:26 does not mean that everyone in Israel will be saved, but that Paul is using the terminology "all Israel" to refer to the believing remnant of Israel throughout all of time. Because Paul would not expend the effort he did in detailing how only a remnant is saved in chapters 9-11, and then turn around and contradict everything he previously said in one verse.

The one to whom this was addressed has declined. Anyone else up for this challenge?

Not me. Other than possibly a detail or two, I agree.

"If you can't do that then we have to conclude that Romans 11:26 does not mean that everyone in natural Israel will be saved, but that Paul is using the terminology "all Israel" to refer to the believing remnant of natural Israel throughout all of time. And the believing remnant of all natural gentiles throughout all of time."

And so all remnant of the Israel of God shall be saved, both Jew and Greek.

"Because NT prophecy would not expend the effort he did in detailing how only a remnant is saved in chapters 9-11, and then turn around and contradict everything he previously said about Jews with Gentiles in one verse."

The OT saints of the Israel of God, will also include Naaman the Syrian, Rahab the Jericho harlot, Ruth the Moabitess... Rahab is even honored alongside Abraham, as one of the two examples of works of faith, that are justified with the God of Israel:

James{2:21}
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only…Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

Now, that can't make it any clearer, that both in the old and the new Covenant pertaining to His everlasting holy nation of Israel, God is not a respecter of persons by the flesh, but only by faith in Him and His dear Son.

 

[FlyingDove]

I know some sites have restrictions against straying from the thread topic, but I don't mind.

And the fact is that Rev 11 & 14 is the topic chapters. But both Gal 4 and Rom 11 having something to say about the 144,000 being the summation of all the Spirit-born graffed Israel of God, serving the living God, and sealed in their foreheads at the Lord's return...

The First resurrection of the saints in Christ Jesus, while all winds are held still, and angels on earth seal all Old and New Covenant saints, that are now resurrecting from the dead and changing immortal in the twinkle of an eye...

Fair enough, then I'll pivot back to the OP post #1, the 144k.

Rev 7:
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
(PARSING: 144k from ALL the TRIBES of ISRAEL. Vrs 7:5-8 confirm 12,000 x 12 tribes - 144,000)

5 Of the tribe of Juda, Reuben & Gad .

6 Of the tribe of Aser, Nepthalim & Manassas

7 Of the tribe of Simeon, Levi & Issachar

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon, Joseph & Benjamin
(PARSING: Verses 5-8 confirm 12k ea x 12 tribes = 144,000 & NAMES the Israelite TRIBES they come from)

Gen 32:28 God changed Jacob's name to Israel. The 12 tribes of Israel are Jacob/Israel's sons. Each son received a land portion (except Levi/Levites they become the priesthood) Joseph receives a double portion of land (Gen 48) & it's divided between his 2 sons Ephraim & Manasseh.

Rev 14:
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him a 144k, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
(PARSING: These 144k are REDEEMED from the earth)

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
(PARSING: "Redeemed From Among Men" being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God & to the Lamb)

Parsing vs 4
(A) 144k ALL VIRGINS)
(B) These 144k were REDEEMED from AMONG MEN)
(C) Being FIRSTFRUITS onto God & to the Lamb.

The Rev 4 language is directly lifted from the Lev 23:9-11 wave offering. They're the 1st portion of a larger harvest, set apart & presented to God.

The category itself is Israelite, because the firstfruits offering was tied to Israel's land covenant.

The Israelites practiced the firstfruits (resurrection foreshadowing) wave offering every Passover week for over 1400 yrs. John calling the 144k "firstfruits" supports their identity as being literal Israelites.

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(PARSING: Christ is 1st to rise/resurrected from the grave)

Matt 27:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
(PARSING: Jesus dies)

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
(PARSING: Jesus rips the Temple veil in 1/2 on the way to paradise)

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(PARSING: Many saints are resurrected)

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
(PARSING: Jesus rises 1st, then others are resurrected. REREADING Rev 14:1-4, 144k = FIRSTFRUITS, "Redeemed From Among Men")

The Matt 27:52-53 cites these OT elect that rise after Jesus as firstfruits that rise from the grave & they're seen by many!

These firstfruits are resurrected BEFORE there is a church.

Jesus rises then 50 days later comes the Acts 2 Pentecost, where the CHURCH via the Holy Spirit outpouring BEGINS.

 

[Psalm1]

Your point is spot on and is all important, but neglected in the argument.

All you are saying is the obvious: The spiritual Israel of God on earth is physical, not just a spiritually unseen kingdom of God.

The division in Rev 7 interpretation is made clear by first affirming New Covenant Scriptural truth:

The NT Israel of God is in fact flesh and blood men, women, Jews, and Greeks. The body of Christ on earth is not just spiritually unseen, but is in fact the physical holy nation of God on earth, made up of men, women, Jews, and Greeks.

The Spirit's body of Christ on earth, is the one and only nation with covenant promise of the risen God of Israel.

That Israeli/Jewish nation in the mid-east, called Israel after the flesh, is not the newly covenanted olive tree and blessed Israel of God on earth. It was the old covenanted rebellious olive tree of the God of Israel, before they finally has Him crucified in the flesh.

Part of that Israeli nation, as well as all nations on earth, to the glory of God by Jesus Christ, now all have spiritually graffed part and physical citizenship in the risen Lamb's NT commonwealth of Israel.

Eph 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Where the redeemed Christian, Jew or Greek, is seen on earth, there is the covenanted nation of God's Israel in Christ Jesus.

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
"Paul refers to spiritual Israel as children of promise born according to the spirit

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born according to the flesh persecuted him that was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Galatians 4:28-29"

And so we see here, that it's not a natural man's ignorance of the spiritual Israel of God, that is at conflict over the 144,000. Rather, it's just another kind of spiritual-disconnect doctrine, that rejects the NT Israel of God, as being His physical covenanted nation on earth.

I.e. The natural born Israeli/Jewish nation in the mid-east, must still be the ongoing covenant nation of the God of Israel, because the NT holy nation Israel of God in Christ Jesus, is just spiritual, not physical... And those 12 tribes spoken of by James 1 and Rev 7, are physical, not just spiritual.

Therefore, the spiritually disconnected Christian believers, see no Judaizing in the body of Christ, by having specially sealed Israeli/Jews in the body of Christ, to the exclusion of any Greek, Russian, American, British, Angolan Christian. Why not? Because the body of Christ is just spiritually on earth, but the natural Israeli/Jews are physically here.

A physical interpretation of Rev 7, mixed with a doctrine of spiritual-disconnect, demands a natural-born people of 12 tribes on earth. Who else could that be?, but 144,000 members of that physical Israeli nation in the Levantine middle east.

That is why they say, that Spiritual Israel is that part of natural Israel that is of faith and ruled by the spirit.

Their hyper-spiritual eyes disconnected from the flesh and blood physical Israel of God on earth, cannot physically perceive that natural Israel only has part in that 144,000 Spiritual Israel, that is of faith and ruled by the Spirit.

The PEOPLE of the 2 covenants aren't going to vanish because a doctrine says so.

Ruth and Hosea illustrate the 2 wives.

When sections are omitted, the bible can be made to say most anything.

 

[FlyingDove]

In Rev 7, the 144,000 are sealed in the forehead on earth. In Rev 14 the 144,000 are sealed with the name of the Father, and they are now standing with the Lamb of God on Mt Sion.

Therefore, the 144,000 are resurrected and ascended with the Lamb Jesus Christ. This must be the first resurrection of the blessed and holy saints of God. There are only two resurrections from the dead (Other than that of the man Jesus Christ), where the first resurrection is all saints, and the next resurrection of the rest of the dead, includes both the good and the bad, whose names are written and not written in the Lamb's book of life.

In Rev 7, the angels holding the winds still over the earth, are them that seal the servants of God in their foreheads. This is collectively altogether at once, just as the resurrection and immortal changing of the saints on earth, is collectively in a moment and twinkling of the eye.

The angels are standing at the four corners of the earth holding the four winds, which is also from where the resurrected saints will be gathered to meet and stand with Jesus in the air.

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And so, we have the first resurrection, rapture, and congregation with the Lord at His return to earth.

7 Feasts of the Lord

1)Passover, 2)Unleavened Bread, 3)Firstfruits, 4)Pentecost, 5)Rosh Hashanah/Trumpets 6)Yom Kippur/Day of Atonement 7)Tabernacles

The 1st 4 Feasts are commonly referred to as the Spring Feasts & pointed to Messiah/Christ's 1st coming.

The final 3 Feasts are commonly referred to as the Fall Feasts: Trumpets-Day of Atonement-Tabernacles point to the Lords 2nd coming.

Israelites celebrated/practiced these Feasts yearly for over 1400 years.

3 Of these crop HARVEST feasts: Passover-Pentecost-Tabernacles carried a mandatory pilgrimage to Jerusalem. All Israelite males 20yrs & older were required to travel to Jerusalem (Deut 16:16)

These 3 special (Passover/Barley-Pentecost/Wheat Main Harvest-Tabernacles/fruits) crop HARVESTS were foreshadowing's of Soul HARVESTS to come.

Jesus died on Passover, was buried during Unleavened Bread & rose on Firstfruits. Jesus sent His indwelling Holy Spirit on Pentecost.

Find FIRSTFRUITS info here: https://www.christianforums.com/blogs/first-fruits-a-resurrection-foreshadow.62533/

Scripture records the 1st (fristfruits) resurrection SOUL HARVEST. Here in Matt:

Matt 27:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
(PARSING: Jesus dies/on Passover/Nisan 14)

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
(PARSING: Jesus rips the Temple veil in 1/2 on the way to paradise)

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(PARSING: Many SOULS are RESURRECTED!)

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
(PARSING: After Jesus is RESURRECTED 1st/BTW on FIRSTFRUITS/Nisan 16. Then many saints are RESURRECTED!)

1st, This recorded RESURRECTION event happens 50 days before the Acts 2 Pentecost. So, their are NO body of Christ/Church Saints in this FIRSTFRIUTS resurrection event.

2ndly, The Rev 14: 144k are part of this recorded FIRSTFRUITS RESURRECTION event.

Rev 14:
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him a 144k, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
(PARSING: These 144k were redeemed from the earth)

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
(PARSING: "Redeemed From Among Men" being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God & to the Lamb)

REREADING Rev 14:1-4, 144k are > FIRSTFRUITS/"Redeemed From Among Men")

This language is directly lifted from the Lev 23:9-11 FIRSTFRUITS wave offering. They are the first portion of a larger SOUL HARVEST to come. These OT saints are set apart & presented to God.

At a soon coming Pentecost/MAIN SOUL HARVEST > NT Body of Christ/Church will be RESURRECTED (1 Thes 4:16-17) Maranatha Amen

The final SOUL HARVEST RESURRECTION event will take place on a future Tabernacles. Maranatha Amen

 

[ATG]

It says God has not cast away his people whom he foreknew. That refers to the election, ie, the believing remnant, It does not refer to the disbelieving branches

That's like saying you have a problem with Jn 3:16 because not all are saved when he actually died for all..

That's exactly like saying you have no problem with Jn 3:16, because not all are saved when he actually died for all.

All are not graffed in again, when He actually died for all...

 

[ATG]

Spiritual Israel is Israel that walks according to the spirit rather than according to the flesh. Not all in natural Israel are spiritual Israel

God was faithful to his calling by establishing the new covenant with Israel, and that calling has not been revoked; they are still welcome to come and share in the inheritance promised to Christ.

Amen and this is particularly well said. I like it when I see apparently complicated doctrine made simple in one sentence.

With His own natural people the Jews rejected Him, and had Him crucified to death, He then by His resurrection establishes His new Covenant with all people on earth, that repent for His sake. And as you say, He does not cast away all natural Israelis/Jews forever, but also calls them to repentance.

Romans 11 is all about rebuking His new Christian people, who believed, and some still say, that natural Israeli Jews cannot repent and be graffed in again to His new Israel on earth, that walks according to the spirit rather than according to the flesh.

 

[ATG]

Romans 11:1 Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
(MY NOTE God has not cast away Israel.

Which cuts off Scripture just quoted. Gad has not cast away His people which He foreknew.

Which are His people that repent of having Him crucified:

Act 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
(MY NOTE Context is "partial hardening", not total rejection. The reply implies permanent casting away.)

The context is permanent hardening of some, and repentance of others. First for the Jew, and also for the Greek.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Rom 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Rom 11:17–20 And if some of the branches be broken of.
(MY NOTE Paul says SOME branches were broken off, not the whole tree.

Changing one word of Scripture, changes all Scripture. Paul says some branches be broken off.

Some of the natural branches still be unrepentant. As well as some of the wild branches...

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in…”
(MY NOTE Broken branches ARE NOT permanently discarded.)

Correct. If them that still be broken off, repent, they shall be graffed in again. And Greeks that repent shall also be graffed in.

Rom 11:25 blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(MY NOTE The blindness is PARTIAL & TEMPORATY.

Blindness in part, is part of the cause for their blindness, so that the gentiles too can repent and come in the Israel of God.

Rom 11:18
The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith.

Temporary applies to natural and wild branches still being cast away, that repent unto life, and do not die castaways in their sin forever.

Rev 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Your context implies that no one was cast away by having God's dear Son wickedly crucified on a cross. But only that they were only partially blind temporarily, but never broken off from God's olive tree of Israel.

Are you saying that all natural Israeli Jews are still the risen God's Covenant people, who are only partially blind, but not wholly cast off? All natural Israelites from the time of Jesus' cross and resurrection, will be resurrected unto life, including them that did not, and do not repent unto death?

When they had God's Son killed to death, they blinded themselves to God the Father. The Jew first and also the Gentile. All people on earth were judged unbelievers at Jesus' death:

Rom{11:32}
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[ATG]

The reply’s “spiritual Israel vs. natural Israel” misses actual contextual citing: Again Physical Israel is hardened for a time, but not forever.)

The phrase “spiritual Israel vs. natural Israel” misses actual context of scripture:

1Co 10:18
Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

Gal 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

With the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ, there is now in Scripture, two Israel's are now on earth: Israel after the flesh and the Israel of God. Both are physically walking in the flesh. With the former after the flesh (in part), and the latter after the Spirit (in every part).

Your context implies a 'spiritual disconnect' between the spiritual Israel of God and physical Israel of God. Where natural Israel is still the physical Israel of God. But spiritual Israel is only some 'mystical' Israel of God, that is spiritually in the air, but not flesh and bone on earth:

Eph 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved.

Correct.

...until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

When the fulness of the natural and wild branches that repent, be come in to the new olive tree Israel of God, then the risen Lamb returns to resurrect and change immortal all His Israel on earth, to rise and meet Him in the air.

1 Th 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(MY NOTE Context ALL, a promise of national restoration.

There is now also two national Israels on earth: The naturally born Israeli/Jewish nation in the mid-east, and the Spirit-born national Israel of God in all nations, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

1Pe 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The New Covenant olive tree Israel of God, graffed with natural Israelis and Greeks alike, are now His own Son's one physical holy nation on earth.

1Pe 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

In Scripture, the God of Israel never has two separate national covenants on earth, at the same time.

Your reply's """they’re welcome to come"""/addition attempts to change scripture.

Come in to what? The natural Israeli-Jewish nation, or the Spirit's olive tree of Israel? Is the graffed olive tree of the risen God of Israel, not the Israel of God?

Any reply of """all Israeli Jews are welcome to come in to the Israel of God"""/addition, attempts to change scripture from Jews and Greeks, to Jews only.

How about if the gentiles get circumcised to 'come in'?

Act 15:1
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

The ACTUAL CONTEXT IS ""ALL"" of ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED)

Correct. All that are graffed into Israel, are Israel at the Lord's coming, and all shall be saved, justified, and resurrected unto life.

Finally,
Physical Israel remains beloved because of God's covenant with the patriarchs (vs 1).

Finally, Physical people remain beloved because of God's old covenant with the patriarchs, is now dead, and the new Covenant of the risen God is for all people that repent of their physical works.

Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Your reply's focus on "spiritual Israel" (found no place in Rom 11 text) ignores > Paul's insistence that God's calling of physical Israel is irrevocable.

By your words, the Israel of God has no place in the graffed olive tree of God. Spiritual Israel finds no place on physical earth.

Paul's insistence that God's gifts and callings are without repentance, is not done away, but now is for all that repent.

Are only natural Israel/Jews called? Do they only have gifts of God by the Holy Ghost?

1Co 7:18
Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

Eph 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Jhn 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Natural Israeli/Jews are not the only people on earth, that have been cast away and scattered abroad in their sins and trespasses. But rather since Adam and Eve transgressed in the garden, all men that have sinned, have been broken off from God's Spirit and scattered upon the earth:

Rom 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Those who make themselves flesh-centric in the national covenant of God on earth, are missing the NT big picture of the risen God's national covenant on earth. His Israel is no more only according to the flesh, but only according to walking after the Spirit...

 

[ATG]

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved.
(MY NOTE Context ALL, a promise of national restoration. Your reply's """they’re welcome to come"""/addition attempts to change scripture.

I believe this is the crux of the whole matter: Are we talking about coming in to natural-born national Israel, or Spirit-born Israel of God?

Your whole context implies that non-Jewish Christians are somehow trying to take over being the nation of natural Israeli Jews on earth.

I.e. some sort of natural replacement theology of Christians becoming the natural Jewish nation.

All Christians are now the national Israel of God, graffed into His New olive tree of Jesus Christ. By being born of the Spirit, not of the flesh.

Jhn 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

What the crucified and risen Son of God has done, is replaced birth of flesh with birth of the Spirit, to come in to His new and holy national Israel of God.

Rom 11:24
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Both natural Jews and Greeks are now coming in to the Israel of God, which is now His one and only holy nation on earth:

1Pe 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

 

[ATG]

Romans 11:28–29 “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.” “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”

Finally,
Physical Israel remains beloved because of God's covenant with the patriarchs (vs 1). Your reply's focus on "spiritual Israel" (found no place in Rom 11 text) ignores > Paul's insistence that God's calling of physical Israel is irrevocable.

Here also, I believe, is another major misunderstanding between the present natural Israeli/Jewish people, and the present people of God's Israel.

The gifts and callings of God to the patriarchs was not the covenant to Abraham and his natural seed. The promises of land and multitude remain to be fulfilled, but the old covenant of circumcision and then by law, has been done away by the physical death of the Christ of God.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Though God's new covenant is now only with them born of the Spirit of Christ, His promise of land and multitude to Abraham and his natural seed, must still be fulfilled at His return:

Gen 13:14
And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

Gen 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

No one, especially not the Lord Jesus Christ, is disannulling His personal promise of that land to Abraham and Jacob.

During the Lord's Millennium, He will give that land to Abraham and Jacob, and to their natural seed, which He will increase as the dust of the earth. Neither of these promises have been fulfilled by the God of Israel, and so He will fulfill it with His people's first resurrection from the dead:

Num 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

However, His old covenant promise by circumcision and law with that natural seed alone, is dead and gone. The new covenant and gospel of God is now forever that of the crucified and risen Son and Lamb of God, Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:6
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Rev 21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

 

[ATG]

This is confirmed by the v5 which you selected, that it is only a remnant according to the election of grace and was not according to election by lineage.

Well done. I like this difference between election by grace vs election by lineage.

All of natural Israel are not saved, and so the remnant must be by grace, since it can't be by lineage.

And if the remnant was of election by grace, those afterwards who become saved must also be saved by the same election of grace and not election by lineage.

Well said again, whether Jewish or Gentile.

Romans 11 confirms that Jewish lineage can be saved by grace, the same as any natural lineage on earth. Because it's not the election by lineage, but by grace.

There is only one Israel in scripture where ALL who comprise it will/must through grace be saved, and that is spiritual Israel, the Israel of God.

Amen brother, Well said again.

While there are now two Israels on earth, one after the flesh, and one after the Spirit, only that Israel of the Spirit is the Israel of God. The holy olive tree graffed from any lineage of man and woman on earth.

The physical Israel after the flesh, has it's own Israeli national citizenship, just like all nations of the earth. And physical Israel of God after the Spirit, has it's own holy nation of citizens among all nations on the earth:

Eph 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Unless, that is, you're attempting to say that everyone who was/is ever of the nation of Israel must unconditionally become saved.

Exactly again.

There are two errors in carnal flesh-centric reading of Romans 11: That it's only Israel after the flesh being spoken of. And so all natural Israeli/Jews must be saved at the Lord's return.

It's the old error of natural Israel still being God's covenanted people of promise on earth, after having God's Son put to death.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

And so from that error, is the error of expecting the risen Lamb of God to save the Jews alone.
Rom 2:6
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

The Lord Himself will come again to save His elect by grace, not by lineage, and destroy His enemies of any lineage, that despise His grace:

Heb 10:28
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Rev 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

To the unbelieving and disobedient of the Jews first, and also of the Gentiles.

If that is your contention, then the onus is on you to explain specifically what/who you mean by "Israel" because it is clear from scripture that many of biblical/national Israel would never become saved.

Exactly, Starting with all them that sinned and perished in the wilderness, especially the company of Korah...

Heb 3:17
But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb 3:7
Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice. Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Two errors by carnal reading of Scripture pertain to Israel in NT times: That natural Israel after the flesh, is still the covenant people Israel of God by election of lineage. And that spiritual Israel of God is not a physical nation and people on earth, but just some spirit-only mystical Israel of God in the air...

Romans 11 simply confirms that national Israelis can still be saved by election of grace, along with any other national lineage that repents for Jesus sake.

Romans 11 is not anti-Jewish nor Jewish-centric in the body and Christ and Israel of God.

Rom 11:18
The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith… And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Gal 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[rogerg]

Well done. I like this difference between election by grace vs election by lineage.

All of natural Israel are not saved, and so the remnant must be by grace, since it can't be by lineage.


Well said again, whether Jewish or Gentile.

Romans 11 confirms that Jewish lineage can be saved by grace, the same as any natural lineage on earth. Because it's not the election by lineage, but by grace.

Amen brother, Well said again.

While there are now two Israels on earth, one after the flesh, and one after the Spirit, only that Israel of the Spirit is the Israel of God. The holy olive tree graffed from any lineage of man and woman on earth.

The physical Israel after the flesh, has it's own Israeli national citizenship, just like all nations of the earth. And physical Israel of God after the Spirit, has it's own holy nation of citizens among all nations on the earth:

Eph 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


Exactly again.

There are two errors in carnal flesh-centric reading of Romans 11: That it's only Israel after the flesh being spoken of. And so all natural Israeli/Jews must be saved at the Lord's return.

It's the old error of natural Israel still being God's covenanted people of promise on earth, after having God's Son put to death.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

And so from that error, is the error of expecting the risen Lamb of God to save the Jews alone.
Rom 2:6
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

The Lord Himself will come again to save His elect by grace, not by lineage, and destroy His enemies of any lineage, that despise His grace:

Heb 10:28
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Rev 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

To the unbelieving and disobedient of the Jews first, and also of the Gentiles.



Exactly, Starting with all them that sinned and perished in the wilderness, especially the company of Korah...

Heb 3:17
But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb 3:7
Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice. Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Two errors by carnal reading of Scripture pertain to Israel in NT times: That natural Israel after the flesh, is still the covenant people Israel of God by election of lineage. And that spiritual Israel of God is not a physical nation and people on earth, but just some spirit-only mystical Israel of God in the air...

Romans 11 simply confirms that national Israelis can still be saved by election of grace, along with any other national lineage that repents for Jesus sake.

Romans 11 is not anti-Jewish nor Jewish-centric in the body and Christ and Israel of God.

Rom 11:18
The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith… And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Gal 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Thank you, ATG, really appreciate your concurrence and input. My reply didn't carry too much weight with the person
I had replied to, but, oh well, no surprise there, I guess.

 

[Psalm1]

That's exactly like saying you have no problem with Jn 3:16, because not all are saved when he actually died for all.

All are not graffed in again, when He actually died for all...

I never said they were.

The bible says "they" , "are".
I am just a reported.

 

[Psalm1]

7 Feasts of the Lord

1)Passover, 2)Unleavened Bread, 3)Firstfruits, 4)Pentecost, 5)Rosh Hashanah/Trumpets 6)Yom Kippur/Day of Atonement 7)Tabernacles

The 1st 4 Feasts are commonly referred to as the Spring Feasts & pointed to Messiah/Christ's 1st coming.

The final 3 Feasts are commonly referred to as the Fall Feasts: Trumpets-Day of Atonement-Tabernacles point to the Lords 2nd coming.

Israelites celebrated/practiced these Feasts yearly for over 1400 years.

3 Of these crop HARVEST feasts: Passover-Pentecost-Tabernacles carried a mandatory pilgrimage to Jerusalem. All Israelite males 20yrs & older were required to travel to Jerusalem (Deut 16:16)

These 3 special (Passover/Barley-Pentecost/Wheat Main Harvest-Tabernacles/fruits) crop HARVESTS were foreshadowing's of Soul HARVESTS to come.

Jesus died on Passover, was buried during Unleavened Bread & rose on Firstfruits. Jesus sent His indwelling Holy Spirit on Pentecost.

Find FIRSTFRUITS info here: https://www.christianforums.com/blogs/first-fruits-a-resurrection-foreshadow.62533/

Scripture records the 1st (fristfruits) resurrection SOUL HARVEST. Here in Matt:

Matt 27:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
(PARSING: Jesus dies/on Passover/Nisan 14)

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
(PARSING: Jesus rips the Temple veil in 1/2 on the way to paradise)

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
(PARSING: Many SOULS are RESURRECTED!)

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
(PARSING: After Jesus is RESURRECTED 1st/BTW on FIRSTFRUITS/Nisan 16. Then many saints are RESURRECTED!)

1st, This recorded RESURRECTION event happens 50 days before the Acts 2 Pentecost. So, their are NO body of Christ/Church Saints in this FIRSTFRIUTS resurrection event.

2ndly, The Rev 14: 144k are part of this recorded FIRSTFRUITS RESURRECTION event.

Rev 14:
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him a 144k, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
(PARSING: These 144k were redeemed from the earth)

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
(PARSING: "Redeemed From Among Men" being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God & to the Lamb)

REREADING Rev 14:1-4, 144k are > FIRSTFRUITS/"Redeemed From Among Men")

This language is directly lifted from the Lev 23:9-11 FIRSTFRUITS wave offering. They are the first portion of a larger SOUL HARVEST to come. These OT saints are set apart & presented to God.

At a soon coming Pentecost/MAIN SOUL HARVEST > NT Body of Christ/Church will be RESURRECTED (1 Thes 4:16-17) Maranatha Amen

The final SOUL HARVEST RESURRECTION event will take place on a future Tabernacles. Maranatha Amen

No no no.
The 144,000 are FIRSTFRUIT JEWS.
The gathering of rev14:14 is MAINHARVEST JEWS.

Your are mixing Rev 14 into a blender.
Blenderizing it.
Let me guess...there is a REASON for doing that.
It wouldn't be replacement theology would it? ???
Maybe RT plus a postrib reframing of God's word?

Changing the book of Revelation is very dangerous.

 

[Aaron56]

An example of messianic Judaizing,

Yeah.

Person: "I'm a Messianic..."

Yay! They believe in the Christ, the Son of the Living God! They are of Christ wherein there is neither Jew nor Gentile... we are all one in Christ Jesus!

Person continues: "..Jew."

*record scratch*

 

[Psalm1]

Yeah.

Person: "I'm a Messianic..."

Yay! They believe in the Christ, the Son of the Living God! They are of Christ wherein there is neither Jew nor Gentile... we are all one in Christ Jesus!

Person continues: "..Jew."

*record scratch*

Paul said he was a Jew.