Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[GWH]

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8

John 6:44a – "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." This verse and John 6:65 should be harmonized with John 12:32, "When I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men to myself", and with the passages teaching God's omnilove, such as John 3:16 and 1Tim. 2:3-4.

Regarding 1 Corinthians 2:14, “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context and NT teaching. Here is relevant immediate context for that verse:

1Cor. 1:21b, “God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.” Using Mag’s favorite terminology, God’s method of saving sinners or natural men is via revealing the Gospel, and we know from 1Tim. 2:3-4 that God desires all to believe.

1Cor. 1:23-24, “We preach Christ crucified… to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” Again, “We preach to all natural men”, and “to those natural men God has called”. This prompts the question: Is “desire” in 1Tim. 2:3-4 synonymous with God’s “calling” in 1Cor. 1:24–and we might add with God’s “drawing” in John 12:32 and with God’s “invitation” in Matt. 22:14? The last verse and John 13:18 indicate that although God loves and wants to save every natural man, some ignore/reject/resist His desire/calling/drawing/invitation and are therefore not chosen or saved, while some do NOT resist God’s calling but rather believe the Gospel, realizing its wisdom and power to save, at which point they become chosen/elect.

1Cor. 1:26, “Brothers, think of what you were when you were called… Not many were influential.” They were natural men in the lower social class, but yet they believed or cooperated with God’s calling.

1Cor. 1:27-28, “God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise… the lowly… and the despised”. God’s saving of despised natural men was intended to humble all natural men, so that “no one may boast before him” (1Cor. 1:29).

1Cor. 2:1-2, “When I came to you, brothers… I proclaimed to you… Jesus Christ and him crucified.” Paul reiterated that God saved some natural men via them accepting Paul’s preaching of the Gospel.

1Cor. 2:10, “God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.” God’s HS enables natural men to believe the Gospel and be saved (or not).

 

[Rufus]

Yet God Himself never tells us "do not bother seeking me. I am unknowable. How dare you even to try?" Instead He tells us to seek Him diligently assuring us that:
13You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you
(Jerimiah 29:13)
Apparently, it is God's desire to be known. Jesus affirmed this fact about Himself when He said:
7Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.…(Matthew 7:7)

The Reformers started out encouraging common people to seek God in the scriptures. Later, I think, they began to enjoy their roles as "interpreters of the truth" and began to dictate the truth - or their views ABOUT what was true. Finally, it was no longer enough to preach. Instead, they enforce their views by violence.

Unbelievers with inherently evil hearts will not seek Christ because they want nothing to do with Him.

 

[Rufus]

Agree. Israel resisted despite a pillar of fire and cloud and daily rations!

That's because their hearts were uncircumcised. God had done no work in their hearts.

 

[GWH]

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (2 Cor ch 3 v 17). If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ (Rom 8 v 9b). The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him (from John 14 v 17). Those not in Christ are not free (see Heb 2 v 15). Praise God if He has rescued you from the dominion of darkness! (see Col 1 v 13)

https://soundcloud.com/magenta-starwalker%2Fset-free

John 14:17 needs to be harmonized with John 3:16.

 

[GWH]

If that's the case, then God's will has clearly been thwarted, which constitutes a contradiction in the bible.

God allows His love/will (John 3:16, 1Tim. 2:3-4) to be thwarted,
but those who contradict it will reap the just consequence (Rom. 2:1-16, John 3:18).

 

[GWH]

But I'm sure you're not making excuses for lasting immaturity either (Heb5:11-6:3).

No, although some may just barely make it (1Cor. 3:14-15, Jude 22).

 

[cv5]

John 6:44a – "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." This verse and John 6:65 should be harmonized with John 12:32, "When I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men to myself", and with the passages teaching God's omnilove, such as John 3:16 and 1Tim. 2:3-4.

Regarding 1 Corinthians 2:14, “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context and NT teaching. Here is relevant immediate context for that verse:

1Cor. 1:21b, “God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.” Using Mag’s favorite terminology, God’s method of saving sinners or natural men is via revealing the Gospel, and we know from 1Tim. 2:3-4 that God desires all to believe.

1Cor. 1:23-24, “We preach Christ crucified… to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” Again, “We preach to all natural men”, and “to those natural men God has called”. This prompts the question: Is “desire” in 1Tim. 2:3-4 synonymous with God’s “calling” in 1Cor. 1:24–and we might add with God’s “drawing” in John 12:32 and with God’s “invitation” in Matt. 22:14? The last verse and John 13:18 indicate that although God loves and wants to save every natural man, some ignore/reject/resist His desire/calling/drawing/invitation and are therefore not chosen or saved, while some do NOT resist God’s calling but rather believe the Gospel, realizing its wisdom and power to save, at which point they become chosen/elect.

1Cor. 1:26, “Brothers, think of what you were when you were called… Not many were influential.” They were natural men in the lower social class, but yet they believed or cooperated with God’s calling.

1Cor. 1:27-28, “God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise… the lowly… and the despised”. God’s saving of despised natural men was intended to humble all natural men, so that “no one may boast before him” (1Cor. 1:29).

1Cor. 2:1-2, “When I came to you, brothers… I proclaimed to you… Jesus Christ and him crucified.” Paul reiterated that God saved some natural men via them accepting Paul’s preaching of the Gospel.

1Cor. 2:10, “God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.” God’s HS enables natural men to believe the Gospel and be saved (or not).

Thanks. A refreshing departure from the appalling one verse flashcard non-scholarship that is the operating principle of the Biblically illiterate super-determinists lingering around here.

Context kills Calvinism per @HeIsHere is a fact.

 

[Rufus]

John 14:17 needs to be harmonized with John 3:16.

Go for it. And while you attempt to harmonize those two passages, give us a special Christmas season bonus of your biblical smarts and reconcile Jn 3:16 with Jn 17:9.

 

[GWH]

Unbelievers with inherently evil hearts will not seek Christ because they want nothing to do with Him.

"Will" being the key word, because it implies moral responsibility, whereas saying natural man "cannot" seek Christ implies innocence by reason of insanity or else blaming God for "unabling" instead of enabling them.

 

[GWH]

Thanks. A refreshing departure from the appalling one verse flashcard non-scholarship that is the operating principle of the Biblically illiterate super-determinists lingering around here.

Context kills Calvinism per @HeIsHere is a fact.

Yes. Awhile back tulipists cited Jeremiah 17:9a and Deuteronomy 29:4,
but examining the context caused them to change the subject.

 

[GWH]

Go for it. And while you attempt to harmonize those two passages, give us a special Christmas season bonus of your biblical smarts and reconcile Jn 3:16 with Jn 17:9.

Too easy: John 17:20-23.
But you prompt a question. We MFWers learned John 3:16 before first grade. What verse did you tulipists learn at that stage?

 

[cv5]

Yes. Awhile back tulipists cited Jeremiah 17:9a and Deuteronomy 29:4,
but examining the context caused them to change the subject.

Likewise, everything the Calvinists have ever thought or written about concerning "election" has been dead wrong, 100% wrong 100% of the time. So far crickets to my postings of late.

 

[Genez]

Go for it. And while you attempt to harmonize those two passages, give us a special Christmas season bonus of your biblical smarts and reconcile Jn 3:16 with Jn 17:9.

“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom ​

You have given Me, for they are Yours." Jn 17:9​

Yet? He died for the sins of the world!

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, ​

but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2​

Why did he die for the sins of the whole world?

So, He could be free to attempt to draw every man!

Those who refuse to be drawn to its completion?
They remain being the world!

While men are being drawn, Satan provides lies to counter the drawing of God.
Those who turn to the mind of Satan to keep free of the drawing of God have been blinded by the Devil...



grace and peace ..............

...........

 

[reneweddaybyday]

it seems inescapable that there is one point where we have an initial encounter with Christ.

Agree ... I also believe we are drawn by God over time (sometimes months, sometimes years, sometimes decades) to the point of the "initial encounter with Christ".

Following our initial surrender and commitment to Him there comes a long period of testing. We must continue to remain in that relationship with Him and to abide in the teachings which comprise the gospel message (rather than deviate into some false way).

We are tested over the course of our lifetime. This is the refining God works within as He conforms us to the image of His Son ... a task that will not be completed until we see Him face to face in eternity. As we are being conformed, we quit running from God, we turn to God, and we draw near to Him as our hearts are cleansed from the evil conscience of our former sinful lifestyle.

Hebrews 10:16-25

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

would to God we could see a little more consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works and a little less provoking to anger in the pages of this thread.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

And the Holy Spirit plays no role in this drawing of God's elect to Jesus?

Did you read what was written, Rufus? ... I'll bold the part you seem to have overlooked ...

reneweddaybyday said:​

you are purposefully misconstruing what was stated ... I said God's glory in creation is one of the ways God draws mankind to Himself.

Creation is not the only way God draws mankind.

The written Word is another way ... God sending faithful believers to speak the truth is another way ... and first and foremost is God sending His Son ... For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16) ... And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

talk about argumentative ... sheesh ...​

"God sending faithful believers to speak the truth is another way" ... is that not the Holy Spirit working within the believer to draw the unbeliever to Christ? ... and notice I did not refer to the unbeliever as "elect" because until the unbeliever is part of the body of the Elect (the Lord Jesus Christ), he or she is just an unbeliever ... one part of the whole pool of humanity.

Or is it your claim that the Holy Spirit approaches the unbeliever directly and starts speaking to him or her?

You FWers are very quick and very consistent in giving the Spirit of Truth and Life very short shrift.

Please define "FWer" or "freewiller". All of the definitions of "FWer" or "freewiller" provided thus far do not apply to me.

Your omission of the Spirit's work speaks volumes to God's subjective, existential work in His people.

That you claim I omitted the work of the Holy Spirit does not equal my having omitted the work of the Holy Spirit in drawing unbelievers to the Lord Jesus Christ.

again ... talk about argumentative ... sheesh ...

.

 

[Jordon]

He founded a substance abuse center (Crossroads Centre). He also holds benefit concerts (Crossroads Guitar Festival) to raise funds for the center.





yep ... he's a believer.

.

So true my little pony to reach out to the lost pandas

 

[Magenta]

So true my little pony to reach out to the lost pandas

Such a great singer! Loved this one, too:

 

[Blue155]

@Magenta, I really like the song of Clapton’s called “Let it Rain”. The live version from 1986 at the Montreux is wonderful and has such a melodic solo.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So true my little pony to reach out to the lost pandas

here's a Clapton song from the 70s ...

.

 

[sawdust]

Do we have free will to access the Holy Spirit before the will of the Lord is to grant it to us?

Luke 11:13
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”