Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

God's drawing is like gravity: it is a universal constant from the beginning of creation but some may will to resist it.

Agree. Israel resisted despite a pillar of fire and cloud and daily rations!

 

[cv5]

Yet God Himself never tells us "do not bother seeking me. I am unknowable. How dare you even to try?" Instead He tells us to seek Him diligently assuring us that:
13You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you
(Jerimiah 29:13)
Apparently, it is God's desire to be known. Jesus affirmed this fact about Himself when He said:
7Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.…(Matthew 7:7)

The Reformers started out encouraging common people to seek God in the scriptures. Later, I think, they began to enjoy their roles as "interpreters of the truth" and began to dictate the truth - or their views ABOUT what was true. Finally, it was no longer enough to preach. Instead, they enforce their views by violence.

Seduced by the carnal gatekeeper mentality, and the glee of brutal psychological domination. Like the "bad" pharisees.

 

[studier]

Calvinists must understand that God's "election" carries with it the POSSIBILITY/POTENTIAL of being manifest in two component ways:
1) privilege
2) service

Yes we are privileged to serve, but this is predicated upon the MFW of the believer.
There is the POTENTIAL for the imputation of the privilege of blessing for the believer in "real time".
BUT, the believer must be WILLING and FAITHFUL to do His will, and His will is always to bless us.

The most prominent example of Scripture being the Nation Israel.
The POTENTIAL for service was there. The PROMISES of blessing were there.
The OPPORTUNITY was always available.

But they squandered these opportunities for service and the privilege of blessing, lacking faith and obedience.
This as a result of their own volition, their own choices, their own MFW.

What do you think @studier ?

It makes me think of some work I was prompted to do just a few days ago - so interestingly they are on my mind as you ask - on these verses that we seem to just skip over:

NKJ John1:10-12 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

• You've done the work on lambano (receive) before. It's active on our part and includes a volitional sense.
• Interestingly the first use of "receive" in v.11 is paralambano and being a compound is intensified and means to take into close association with oneself, to take to oneself (BDAG) - it too is active and volitional and sets the tone here.
• But the interesting thing I was looking at again the other day is "the right" which is exousia re: which BDAG includes in its meaning "freedom of choice"

Not only is "freedom of choice" herein, but also volitionally active receiving Him.

As for faith and obedience, there is no such thing as genuine faith without obedience and as the Text speaks of believing (verb) and belief/faith (noun) it builds a detailed explanation of it well beyond any simple lexical definition by attaching other words to it besides obedience - words like endurance - concepts like responsive and cooperative - verb forms denoting continual, etc... Apart from these defining characteristics it's not genuine faith.

And "believe in His name" in one sense is who He is - His character - but also His authority - thus obedient enduring faith is built into our true relationship with Him. Anyone thinking this can be ignored isn't thinking biblically.

I agree with what you said in your capitalized explanations above. And I think part of being elect is stated by Jesus above and is most certainly volitional on men's part - it's part of the exousia He gives.

 

[GWH]

My Bible says none are good... there are none righteous, no not one! That we were all children of wrath.

My GW says God draws all sinners; whereas yours says God repels them?
Which understanding is more attractive?

 

[Magenta]

My GW says God draws all sinners; whereas yours says God repels them?
Which understanding is more attractive?

I said no such thing, mister liar.

You seem to disagree with the very words of Jesus Christ Himself.

No surprises there!

 

[GWH]

It makes me think of some work I was prompted to do just a few days ago - so interestingly they are on my mind as you ask - on these verses that we seem to just skip over:

NKJ John1:10-12 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

• You've done the work on lambano (receive) before. It's active on our part and includes a volitional sense.
• Interestingly the first use of "receive" in v.11 is paralambano and being a compound is intensified and means to take into close association with oneself, to take to oneself (BDAG) - it too is active and volitional and sets the tone here.
• But the interesting thing I was looking at again the other day is "the right" which is exousia re: which BDAG includes in its meaning "freedom of choice"

Not only is "freedom of choice" herein, but also volitionally active receiving Him.

As for faith and obedience, there is no such thing as genuine faith without obedience and as the Text speaks of believing (verb) and belief/faith (noun) it builds a detailed explanation of it well beyond any simple lexical definition by attaching other words to it besides obedience - words like endurance - concepts like responsive and cooperative - verb forms denoting continual, etc... Apart from these defining characteristics it's not genuine faith.

And "believe in His name" in one sense is who He is - His character - but also His authority - thus obedient enduring faith is built into our true relationship with Him. Anyone thinking this can be ignored isn't thinking biblically.

I agree with what you said in your capitalized explanations above. And I think part of being elect is stated by Jesus above and is most certainly volitional on men's part - it's part of the exousia He gives.

Well, there can be genuine faith but we will have imperfect moral obedience until we are resurrected to heaven.

 

[GWH]

I said no such thing, mister liar.

You seem to disagree with the very words of Jesus Christ Himself.

No surprises there!

The astute among us will note that I asked a question, which you did not answer, ms. false accuser.

 

[GWH]

Agree. Israel resisted despite a pillar of fire and cloud and daily rations!

Yes, which was noted in Hebrews 3 re "Today...".

 

[cv5]

It makes me think of some work I was prompted to do just a few days ago - so interestingly they are on my mind as you ask - on these verses that we seem to just skip over:

NKJ John1:10-12 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

• You've done the work on lambano (receive) before. It's active on our part and includes a volitional sense.
• Interestingly the first use of "receive" in v.11 is paralambano and being a compound is intensified and means to take into close association with oneself, to take to oneself (BDAG) - it too is active and volitional and sets the tone here.
• But the interesting thing I was looking at again the other day is "the right" which is exousia re: which BDAG includes in its meaning "freedom of choice"

Not only is "freedom of choice" herein, but also volitionally active receiving Him.

As for faith and obedience, there is no such thing as genuine faith without obedience and as the Text speaks of believing (verb) and belief/faith (noun) it builds a detailed explanation of it well beyond any simple lexical definition by attaching other words to it besides obedience - words like endurance - concepts like responsive and cooperative - verb forms denoting continual, etc... Apart from these defining characteristics it's not genuine faith.

And "believe in His name" in one sense is who He is - His character - but also His authority - thus obedient enduring faith is built into our true relationship with Him. Anyone thinking this can be ignored isn't thinking biblically.

I agree with what you said in your capitalized explanations above. And I think part of being elect is stated by Jesus above and is most certainly volitional on men's part - it's part of the exousia He gives.

• But the interesting thing I was looking at again the other day is "the right" which is exousia re: which BDAG includes in its meaning "freedom of choice"

I am quite convinced that salvation is a perfected legal right, a settled legal precedent for anyone who CHOOSES to RECEIVE Him for the dual imputations: acquittal of sins by imputing them to Christ/imputation of His righteousness to us. After that, there is the POTENTIAL to serve with the full confidence of the PROMISED blessings, including the INHERITANCE.

Here again the author demonstrates that the privilege of suffering for His sake brings blessings and rewards,

[Heb 10:33-36 NKJV]
33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated;
34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.
35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

[Col 3:23-24 NKJV]
23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men,
24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ.

 

[Rufus]

I think God makes the truth perspicuous. We might simply get bogged down in semantics but consider the antagonistic Pharisees, they didn't just hear what Christ said and scratch there heads wondering what He meant, especially when claiming to be God, but actually understood what He meant because they wanted to stone Him.

As a comparison. There are times I hear what my pastor says (ie.I know what he is saying) but I don't really understand it, leastwise not fully. I put that down to missing some element of understanding that the current teaching is built upon. In those times I simply keep it hidden in my heart and then when I have sufficient information, the Lord pulls it out (so to speak) and makes it understandable.

In that sense I would describe grace doing more than "allowing one to hear".

I think "keeping the door open" is most probably a good a way as any to say "frees the soul".

I agree God is forcing no-one to believe. He does force at times in the sense He overwhelms us with His power so that we are unable to do anything but His will. (Balaam is an example of that when only able to speak the Lord's word) There are also those who will go into the lake of fire. There is no choice there, God fulfills His word with overwhelming power.

Did the Pharisees truly understand? If they truly had, would they have wanted to murder Jesus?

1 Cor 2:8
8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
ESV

True understanding comes only through the God-given gift of the Fear of the Lord!

Job 28:28
28 And he said to man,
'The fear of the Lord — that is wisdom,
and to shun evil is understanding.'"
NIV

And,

Prov 16:6
6 Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for;
through the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil.
NIV

The Pharisees had no true spiritual understanding because their hearts were full of evil.

 

[Magenta]

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8

 

[Magenta]

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (2 Cor ch 3 v 17). If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ (Rom 8 v 9b). The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him (from John 14 v 17). Those not in Christ are not free (see Heb 2 v 15). Praise God if He has rescued you from the dominion of darkness! (see Col 1 v 13)

https://soundcloud.com/magenta-starwalker%2Fset-free

 

[Magenta]

The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians ch 2 v 14

 

[JimiSurvivor]

No I'm not. I am perfectly aware of every step in the Jewish betrothal ceremony to the finest detail.

Yes, the WEDDING FEAST, occurs only AFTER the betrothal (this is still part of the wedding),

I do not think it is accurate to say BETROTHAL is PART of the wedding. BETROTHAL always occurs PRIOR TO the WEDDING just as a promise precedes the realization of the promise. After promises are given there usually commences a period of waiting and testing. This seems to be the way God operates. You very will might have complete and detailed of Jewish feast practices. This does does not mean you have arrived at a balanced exposition of all the antitypes.

....then harpazo/snatch, then seven day (SEVEN YEAR) honeymoon at the Fathers house. Then comes the extended WEDDING FEAST that is attended by many guests. Like Moses, and Noah and Daniel. What I did was to compress all of the facts of the matter into a single bite-sized sentence so that perhaps the Calvinists might understand the status of the Bride in terms of informed consent and willingness (without coercion)....But they did not.....just crickets. They have no answer.[/QUOTE]

I do not think the great celebration can begin until the Bridegroom actually COMES AGAIN. This view aligns more closely with the type. The "virgins" cannot celebrate cannot rejoice until the Bridegroom arrives in person.

I am not a Calvinist so I do not adopt their positions on almost anything. That being said, it seems inescapable that there is one point where we have an initial encounter with Christ. Following our initial surrender and commitment to Him there comes a long period of testing. We must continue to remain in that relationship with Him and to abide in the teachings which comprise the gospel message (rather than deviate into some false way).

 

[Rufus]

It is not our nature that determines what we think, it is the word of God or the lies of Satan with which we think. We are born knowing neither, hence God could place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden. We learn one or we learn the other, although usually more a mixture of both. Some though only prefer the lies and no truth at all. Only God's immutable nature is good, ours has been designed amoral and we have the capacity to become one or the other.

Unless you had terrible parents, you did not learn stealing is wrong after you became a Christian.

Those who learn from the Father come to Christ. Jn.6:45

Once again your assumptions do me a disservice.

But none of us come into this world with the Word of God instilled into our depraved hearts! None of us come into this world with the Fear of the Lord instilled into our hearts which provides us with a godly disposition. No godly disposition means no godly thoughts, words or deeds. Therefore, the sinner's depraved, vile, wicked, evil nature dictates to him what to think and how to think it. Why in the world do you think that no mere mortal cannot not sin!? And unbelievers are in bondage to their sin nature.

 

[cv5]

@JimiSurvivor, post: 5649212, member: 340396

*********************************************************
Yes the extended WEDDING FEAST/CELEBRATION/SUPPER only occurs at the Second Coming.
I am quite convinced that the betrothal is definitely part of the Jewish wedding/marriage protocol,
because there is no marriage supper without it.......

[Rev 19:6-9 NKJV]
6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!
7 "Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."
8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God."

 

[Rufus]

you are purposefully misconstruing what was stated ... I said God's glory in creation is one of the ways God draws mankind to Himself.

Creation is not the only way God draws mankind.

The written Word is another way ... God sending faithful believers to speak the truth is another way ... and first and foremost is God sending His Son ... For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16) ... And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

talk about argumentative ... sheesh ...

.

And the Holy Spirit plays no role in this drawing of God's elect to Jesus? You FWers are very quick and very consistent in giving the Spirit of Truth and Life very short shrift. Your omission of the Spirit's work speaks volumes to God's subjective, existential work in His people.

 

[studier]

Well, there can be genuine faith but we will have imperfect moral obedience until we are resurrected to heaven.

But I'm sure you're not making excuses for lasting immaturity either (Heb5:11-6:3).

 

[cv5]

• But the interesting thing I was looking at again the other day is "the right" which is exousia re: which BDAG includes in its meaning "freedom of choice"

I am quite convinced that salvation is a perfected legal right, a settled legal precedent for anyone who CHOOSES to RECEIVE Him for the dual imputations: acquittal of sins by imputing them to Christ/imputation of His righteousness to us. After that, there is the POTENTIAL to serve with the full confidence of the PROMISED blessings, including the INHERITANCE.

Here again the author demonstrates that the privilege of suffering for His sake brings blessings and rewards,

[Heb 10:33-36 NKJV]
33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated;
34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.
35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

[Col 3:23-24 NKJV]
23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men,
24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ.

the dual imputations: acquittal of sins by imputing them to Christ/imputation of His righteousness to us.

This is validated in the OT of course.
In order:

Sin Offering (Chatta’t)
Leviticus 4:4, 15, 24, 29, 33

Burnt Offering (ʿOlah)
Leviticus 1:4

 

[Rufus]

The will of God before creation was for everyone to access the HS/be in Christ/saved. (Eph. 1:3-13)

If that's the case, then God's will has clearly been thwarted, which constitutes a contradiction in the bible.