Speaking in tongues

[Blain]

See post 338. Peter stated tongues was the evidence of the initial infilling.

The fruit of the Spirit does not manifest at the initial infilling. Fruit is the result of the ongoing influence of the Holy Ghost in the life of the born again believer.

Peter never once states that tongues is the evidence of the the spirit in us he does say however that it is prophecy being fulfilled but please show where it is stated that it is the actual evidence because I do not see it anywhere.

 

[Wansvic]

You made a claim about 100% of New testament texts on being filled with the Spirit. I gave two that do not say the spoke in tongues. You seem to be suggesting that unless the Bible says somewhere, "So-and-so was/were filled with the Spirit but did not speak in tongues" then we should logically conclude that where it says they were filled with the Spirit, they did speak in tongues. That is the logical fallacy of begging the question.

You are mistaken. What I said was all the DETAILED accounts reveal 100% of those filled with the Holy Ghost spoke in tongues.

 

[PaulThomson]

You are mistaken. What I said was all the DETAILED accounts reveal 100% of those filled with the Holy Ghost spoke in tongues.

You are constantly refining your claims to post hoc rationalise how you can still be right, despite the obvious falsifications of your cascading claims.

You cannot logically get from the evidence of scripture to the absolute degree of certainty your tradition claims to have on this point.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Have you, in your tongue-speaking experience, ever had someone speak in gibberish at church, and had an interpreter (or interpreters) speak up and say, "Wait, that's not a real tongue, that's gibberish"? Or have you experienced a false interpreter give a false interpretation, and have a true interpreter speak up and say "Wait, that wasn't the true interpretation of the tongue, this is"? If not, why not? Statistically speaking, given the number of charlatans I've experienced in my own life, it should have happened on multiple occasions within even a year, if the gifts being practiced every Sunday (or more often) are real and not make-believe.

I hold it doesn't happen because of the latter reason. I'm not saying all tongue-speakers or interpreters are deceived or deceiving, but certainly, in my experience, most of them. And given that most of them are deceivers, that puts a duty on me, as a Christian, to make sure those who are claiming spiritual gifts are legitimate in their claims, if I am going to treat their messages as if they are from God.

On occasion, I've witnessed pastors stop a person from continuing to speak in tongues because the Holy Spirit is telling them He didn't initiate that. Or there are occasions when two people will speak in tongues, but the Holy Spirit will quickly silence one of them and let the other believer continue.

When the interpretation comes, virtually all the believers hearing the interpretation get a confirmation from the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit, if you haven't realized, is in complete control of the gifts and will not allow it to become chaotic and confusing. So if you do see chaos and confusion when the gifts supposedly manifest, it's not of God, but man-made, man-induced. The Holy Spirit does everything in an orderly, peaceful way. And He won't make a believer do weird things like holy laughter, etc.

 

[Wansvic]

Peter never once states that tongues is the evidence of the the spirit in us he does say however that it is prophecy being fulfilled but please show where it is stated that it is the actual evidence because I do not see it anywhere.

Peter told Jews in Acts 11:15-17 that he knew the Gentile Cornelius and others had received the Holy Ghost because they had spoken in tongues just as they had on the Day of Pentecost.

Peter and others on the Day of Pentecost
"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:4

Gentile Cornelius and others experienced the same thing
"And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (How did they know it?) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. "Acts 10:45-46


The record of what Peter told the Jews about the Gentiles receiving the Holy Ghost
"And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." Acts 11:15-18

 

[Wansvic]

You are constantly refining your claims to post hoc rationalise how you can still be right, despite the obvious falsifications of your cascading claims.

You cannot logically get from the evidence of scripture to the absolute degree of certainty your tradition claims to have on this point.

There was no refining whatsoever. You were just mistaken about what I actually posted. (see Post 325)

The word of God reveals that the truth concerning any topic is established by 2-3 witnesses. (Deut. 19:15, Matt. 18:16, 2 Cor. 13:1)

 

[Wansvic]

You are constantly refining your claims to post hoc rationalise how you can still be right, despite the obvious falsifications of your cascading claims.

You cannot logically get from the evidence of scripture to the absolute degree of certainty your tradition claims to have on this point.

I suggest you actually read the scriptures cited. They reveal the truth.

 

[Blain]

Peter told Jews in Acts 11:15-17 that he knew the Gentile Cornelius and others had received the Holy Ghost because they had spoken in tongues just as they had on the Day of Pentecost.

Peter and others on the Day of Pentecost
"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:4

Gentile Cornelius and others experienced the same thing
"And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (How did they know it?) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. "Acts 10:45-46


The record of what Peter told the Jews about the Gentiles receiving the Holy Ghost
"And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." Acts 11:15-18

And yet
1 Corinthians 12:30 says

Do we all have the gift of healing? Do we all have the ability to speak in unknown languages? Do we all have the ability to interpret unknown languages? Of course not!
it clearly says it is not for everyone what you propose is not even Peter saying that it is the sign for all but rather is based on circumstances while while I am saying is what the scripture says right here and it says not all do speak in tongues

you can accept what it says or not but either way it says plain as day that not all do and thus it is not the sign of the spirit in fact it is even called a lesser gift compared to prophecy

 

[PaulThomson]

I'm curious. What do you conclude, if anything, from the fact that the biblical record specifically reveals that 100% of those in the detailed accounts spoke in tongues when they were filled with the Holy Spirit?

And you define "detailed accounts" how? Those that include tongues with being filled? That's called circular reasoning, my friend.

 

[PaulThomson]

The record of what Peter told the Jews about the Gentiles receiving the Holy Ghost
"And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." Acts 11:15-18

The fact that God gave someone the same gift as He gave to Peter when he was filled with the Spirit, does not mean that God gives the same gift to all who are filled with the Spirit.

If those paying to enter an event receive either a red smiley face stamp or a green cat stamp, showing a red smiley face stamp may prove you paid, but not having a red smiley face stamp does not prove you did not pay.

 

[CS1]

1 Corinthian 12 pertains to spiritual gifts. "Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"

As I pointed out, if no proof accompanies the initial experience how does a person know whether they need to ask for the Holy Ghost or not? Luke 11:13, Acts 19:1

Yet all are told to desire them in chapter 14 verse 1-2 and seek the most effective ones that are needed at the time of ministry

 

[PaulThomson]

As I pointed out, if no proof accompanies the initial experience how does a person know whether they need to ask for the Holy Ghost or not? Luke 11:13, Acts 19:1

Luk 11:13
“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

You don't have to know by seeing or hearing a sign. You can believe because Jesus keeps His promises. How do I know tht I have the Holy Spirit. Because the word of God tells me I do. I don't need a sign to prove I am. Satan asked Jesus for signs that He was the Son of God.
"If you are the Son of God, turn these stones to bread."
"If you are the Son of God cast yourself down from here...."

Jesus believed He was the Son of God without seeing a sign others could confirm was proof that He was.

 

[PaulThomson]

I suggest you actually read the scriptures cited. They reveal the truth.

They do reveal the truth... but not your claims.

 

[Charlesiii]

first off what is gibberish? and are you assuming that interpretation is a translation from one language to another?

Because Tongues and the interpretation of tongues is equal to prophesying according to the Greek in 1cor chapter 14.

You have to understand what speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is. IF you notice in 1cor chapter 12 Paul says:

3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

in chapter 14 Paul says:


"14 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification."


This is very important to the text and context.

1. no one can speak under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit will say things that are contrary to the word of GOD. That why we judge what is said by the word of GOD the tongues and interpretation = prophesying which all are to judge.
Those who speak in tongues no man can interpret. IT is speaking to GOD. No one can understand therefore it has to be a language unknown that man cannot understand it. BUT ONLY GOD. Yet this still have a godly way to validate what is being said through the interpretation.

2. IF a person speaks in the assembly out loud in a unknown language and then a person speaking or another person interprets what is being said and the interpretation Edifies, comforts, and build up or provides conformation to the church or person(s)
who can you call that Gibberish?


3. the cause of the tongues line up with he effects and the word of God? Does it do what it is suppose to do? Was God Gloried ? If not what is suppose to happen? The Pastor , Elders, Deacons are to tell them to stop and speak quietly to yourself.


4. I have personally seen and have been used in Tongues and interpretation of Tongues and Prophesying. False interpretation.

are people who are used by the Holy Spirit able to make mistakes? when you say false interpretation I take that as those who do so in the context of lying. I have one question for you. Does the Holy Spirit control ones mouth and what they are going to say when they are speaking in tongues or interpreting ?


Moving on:

The gifts should never be practiced. And if your experience has been one of unbiblical manifestations welcome to the club. None more than the office of Pastor.
Lying devils , yep. Charlatans yep. Deceivers yep. YET in all that The word of GOD still is the measuring rod by which we examine, prove and accept what is being said and done in the church setting.

You can't be exhorted if not corrected. You can't be edified if you are being lied to. and you can't have confirmation without the word of GOD.

I think its often impossible to have an intelligent conversation with a tongues believer, because they don't understand what words mean, and reinterpret scripture to mean that which it doesn't.

Gibberish is defined as unintelligible or meaningless speech or writing; nonsense. Tongue, as used in scripture, refers to another language (tongues being plural). Gift means a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present. If you use these words according to their correct meanings and according to the scriptural advice and examples given, the gift of tongues is not speaking incoherently. The gift of interpretation is not someone giving a pious-sounding quote from their own mind or a mishmash of what they recall from scripture prefixed or suffixed with "Thus saith the Lord".

You made a claim about 100% of New testament texts on being filled with the Spirit. I gave two that do not say the spoke in tongues. You seem to be suggesting that unless the Bible says somewhere, "So-and-so was/were filled with the Spirit but did not speak in tongues" then we should logically conclude that where it says they were filled with the Spirit, they did speak in tongues. That is the logical fallacy of begging the question.

Logic (i.e. lack of understanding thereof). Another commonality amongst those advocating the widespread use of tongues in the church.

 

[DeanM]

 

[Wansvic]

And you define "detailed accounts" how? Those that include tongues with being filled? That's called circular reasoning, my friend.

The church was birthed on the Day of Pentecost. Jewish individuals were the first to hear, believe and obey the gospel presented by the Apostle Peter. (Acts 2:2-41) If you will recall it was Jesus who stated he would give Peter the keyS to the kingdom. (Matt. 16:19) And Peter was the one used to present those keys to Jews as well as Gentiles. (Acts 10:43-48, 11:15-17) He was also involved in Samaritans' conversion. He assisted in their receiving the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8:12-18)

On the Day of Pentecost, Peter explained speaking in tongues was the evidence of receiving of God's Spirit as prophesied by Joel; THIS IS THAT. (See Acts 2:15-18)
After the people acknowledged belief in Jesus they asked what they must do. They were instructed to repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sin, and receive the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:36-38) The account reveals the people were added to the church AFTER obeying Peter's instructions. (Acts 2:41)

Various points relative to the components associated with the NT rebirth, ie, receiving the Holy Ghost, water baptism, etc. are in fact noted throughout scripture. However, the specific details of the components are addressed in the initial conversion accounts of those of every ethnic group; Jews, Samaritans (half-Jew, half Gentile), and Gentiles. The records leave no room for doubt as to what is involved, as well as reveal that all people regardless of ethnicity are to obey the gospel in order to experience the NT rebirth. (Rom. 1:16)

The same details of the conversion experience are witnessed in Paul's interaction with the Ephesians some 20+ years after the message was first preached by Peter. ( Acts 19:1-7, 2:38)

Food for thought: Jesus instructed Peter to do three specific things in the gospel of John; feed my lambs, feed my sheep, and feed my sheep. The instruction undoubtedly pertained to the Gentiles, Jews, and Samaritans. (John 21:14-17, 10:16)

 

[PAC-fit]

Off topic: Let the remnant carnal rise up and be counted while securing the context-free 'exit door',

", ,whether there are prophecies, they will fail;
whether there are tongues, they will cease;
whether there is [WOK] knowledge, it will vanish away. "

How long can they defend themselves from loss of winnowing powder while in 'foolish' opposition? Futile exploits. What is not futile is; gifts are subject to failure while IN USE!

 

[Wansvic]

The fact that God gave someone the same gift as He gave to Peter when he was filled with the Spirit, does not mean that God gives the same gift to all who are filled with the Spirit.

If those paying to enter an event receive either a red smiley face stamp or a green cat stamp, showing a red smiley face stamp may prove you paid, but not having a red smiley face stamp does not prove you did not pay.

You err in the belief that the spiritual gift of tongues was what was given on the Day of Pentecost. The gift that was given was the Holy Ghost. Tongues was the sign that accompanied the experience. You may want to reread the account I posted. It reveals the experience was had by all, not just Peter.

"And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
(A reference to what everyone experienced as recorded in Acts 2-4)
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift (meaning the Holy Ghost) as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." Acts 11:15-18


THE ACTUAL ACCOUNT Peter was referencing is in Acts 10:
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on ALL them which heard the word.

And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. "

How did they know the Holy Ghost was given?

"For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." Acts 10:44-48

 

[Wansvic]

Yet all are told to desire them in chapter 14 verse 1-2 and seek the most effective ones that are needed at the time of ministry

The post you referenced addressed two separate issues.

1. The spiritual gifts are distributed as God sees fit. As such, only certain believers will be used to operate in the spiritual gifts; speak messages in tongues and/or interpretation, healings, etc.
2. Scripture also reveals one can know whether or not they have received the Holy Ghost indicating evidence accompanies the experience. (Luke 11:13, Acts 19:1-7)

When the Holy Ghost was shed forth at Pentecost, the record indicates 100% of those filled spoke in tongues. (Acts 2:4) The same is true in regards to the initial experience of the Gentiles. (Acts 10:43-48) In the case of the Samaritans, it is clear evidence accompanied the experience. The 12 Ephesians Paul interacted with in Acts 19:1-7 spoke in tongues as well. Which begs the question, if the manifestation upon being filled with the Holy Ghost is the spiritual gift of tongues (which I do not believe is the case) one would think less than 100% would have actually spoken in tongues.

Since God's Word will never contradict itself one can conclude that tongues manifest for different purposes; as a sign of the initial infilling. (Acts 2:4, 10:43-48, 11:15-18, 19:1-7, (implied in Acts 8:12-18)); personal prayer and/or singing in worship to God. (1 Cor. 14:14-15): the gift of tongues for the specific purpose of presenting a message from God for those in a church congregation. (1 Cor. 12)

 

[Wansvic]

Luk 11:13
“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

You don't have to know by seeing or hearing a sign. You can believe because Jesus keeps His promises. How do I know tht I have the Holy Spirit. Because the word of God tells me I do. I don't need a sign to prove I am. Satan asked Jesus for signs that He was the Son of God.
"If you are the Son of God, turn these stones to bread."
"If you are the Son of God cast yourself down from here...."

Jesus believed He was the Son of God without seeing a sign others could confirm was proof that He was.

Sadly, you avoid the obvious. Jesus' comment reveals people know whether they already have the Holy Ghost or not. He did not say believe you already have the Holy Ghost. He said ask the Father if you want to receive the Holy Ghost.

Luk 11:13
“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”