Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

And why do you ignore that Pharaoh hardened His heart before the Lord hardened it. The Lord gives men what they want. Chapters 3 and 4 are outlining the results, the following chapters fill in the middle.

Your proverbs 21:1? So tell me, which is it, we have hearts of stone the Lord must pound to dust or hearts of water the Lord can direct it's flow?

You really do not understand scripture as well as you think.

I believe Ex chapter 4 precedes chapter 7. What part of chronological order don't you get?

And quit with your stupid attempt at another lame analogy. Prov 21:1 is but one of several passages that basically teaches the universal principle that man's ways are NOT in himself. See for example:

Dan 5:23
23 Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You had the goblets from his temple brought to you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.
NIV

 

[Rufus]

Just another excuse because you have no answers. Talk to the hand as they say.

No excuse. Just a fact. Besides, "favoritism" in the bible doesn't mean what you think. Favoritism is always spoken on in the biblical context of God not favoring the Jews with His great Salvation over the Gentiles. Read the Cornelius account in Acts someday. Also, read and study Rom 2:5-11.

 

[Rufus]

Nothing about predestined to believe.

Another bible illiterate! You don't read too swell, do you? Those whom God foreknew he predestined, and whom he predestined he called, and whom he called he JUSTIFIED! Aren't God's people justified by faith!? Faith is to be implicitly understood in the passage.

 

[Rufus]

Do you understand this strengthening for the purpose of repentance? In other words, the Lord was giving him time to repent even though He knew he was never going to do it?

Make stuff up much in your carnal imagination? Read Ex 4:21. God's purpose in hardening Pharaoh's heart is not drivel you claim.

 

[Rufus]

Just so long as you know that God strengthened Pharaohs heart...and Pharoah hardened his own heart..at least you may have learned something from our back and forth

The Heb term translated "hardened" has numerous meanings -- over 24 according to BLB.classic. And to make strong is to also make RIGID, as in inflexible. Don't forget: Pharoah himself boasted that he did not KNOW the Lord -- neither did he want to!

 

[Rufus]

No grace/love for those not favored.

Which is actually quite consistent with biblical theology. God loves only the righteous, God-fearers, those who trust him, those who call upon him, those who reciprocate his love and who love his Son.

Plus God gives grace only to the humble, which the world is not!

Seems to me God has made it very plain on who He loves, why he loves them and to whom he favors with saving grace.

 

[Rufus]

Pro. 21:1 – In order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter, this verse must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.

Nice bit of eisegesis! Read much into passages very often?

 

[Rufus]

What a terrible, deplorable and appalling state man is in by nature, who once lived in perfect harmony and unity with God in a Garden of Paradise, but whom the Scriptures now describe "...is a worm" (Job 25:6).
** MDB **

IOW, how very far mighty man has fallen into the dark, bottomless abyss.

 

[NightTwister]

So, your god is a potter who has some serious limitations, heh?

They don't believe God is the potter. They believe God simply provides the clay, and every individual is their own potter to make of themselves whatever they choose.

 

[Rufus]

You still don't get it. It's not about God giving His people desires, it's about God not giving Himself His desires.

Strewth, you can be hard to get through to sometimes.

God does fulfill his own desires. He will bring ALL his elect into his heavenly kingdom, for He's not willing that any of HIS should perish but that they all come to repentance. And since NO ONE can ever frustrate or thwart God's will, then how is God not fulfilling his own desires?

 

[Rufus]

They don't believe God is the potter. They believe God simply provides the clay, and every individual is their own potter to make of themselves whatever they choose.

That sounds like a reasonable deduction.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

@Magenta : You tell 'em, sister!!

As always, she makes assumptions. I never said the will was free when it comes to choosing God without God's enablement or enlightenment. I believe men are blinded by Satan when they come into this world, and they are children of wrath. When God comes, He frees their will temporarily so that they can make a free will choice concerning the gospel message. As I stated many times, free will in choosing God only exists under God's drawing, conviction of sin, and the opening of the heart and eyes. Man left to his own devices without God’s Divine Enlightenment would be hell bent on never wanting or desiring God or being able to understand the things of the Lord spiritually. But God, in His mercy and grace, does seek all men to be saved, so there comes a time in a person's life when God gives man the choice under His divine power. This truth in Scripture acknowledges both free will and yet does not in any way give man the glory.

Most here just like to side-step responsibility. Often this is done as a cloak to justify unrighteousness, as well.
This should not be a surprise. We are living in the last days.
Where evil is called good, and good is called evil.



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[Hungerpain]

There is no 'free will'! We behave according to the desire of our hearts. We are born with a carnal heart and we are spiritually dead. Upon being awakened by the Holy Ghost our hearts are changed and our desires are drawn to Elohim.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

@rogerg

What is there to dislike exactly?
I am just stating the facts, and I can prove it if you like.
Or do you think hitting the dislike button somehow proves you're right??




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[Bible_Highlighter]

She doesn't believe in prevenient grace or depravity or divine enlightenment.

Yes, I know. I never said she did. Seeing Prevenient Grace is taught in the Bible, I am merely stating the facts in that she is misinterpreting Prevenient Grace verses. Meaning, when she reads about how Lydia’s eyes are opened, she just sees Calvinism in this event, and she ignores all the free will choice verses. Yet, when I read this story, I see it as Prevenient Grace because I accept the free will verses in the Bible.




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[GWH]

Which is actually quite consistent with biblical theology. God loves only the righteous, God-fearers, those who trust him, those who call upon him, those who reciprocate his love and who love his Son.

Plus God gives grace only to the humble, which the world is not!

Seems to me God has made it very plain on who He loves, why he loves them and to whom he favors with saving grace.

God loves and wants to save everyone. Seven Scriptures teaching divine omnilove include:
1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4,
which might be deemed the “7 pearls”.
Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (Rom. 5:6-8) including His enemies:
those who are ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ, pseudo-Christian (Matt. 7:21, John 8:42-44).

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

The fact that Jordan’s reply is that 2 Thessalonians 2:10 is a dark verse (mystery verse) is an absolute cop-out.
The fact that nobody in the Anti-Free Will camp can explain it properly shows that their belief is false.
Calvinism has been around since John Calvin, and you would think that somebody by now would have explained it.
But no. There is no explanation because 2 Thessalonians 2:10 means what it says plainly.



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[rogerg]

When God comes, He frees their will temporarily so that they can make a free will choice concerning the gospel message.

Just out of curiosity, where in scripture do you find stated that "He frees their will temporarily" ?

 

[sawdust]

I believe Ex chapter 4 precedes chapter 7. What part of chronological order don't you get?

And quit with your stupid attempt at another lame analogy. Prov 21:1 is but one of several passages that basically teaches the universal principle that man's ways are NOT in himself. See for example:

Dan 5:23
23 Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You had the goblets from his temple brought to you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.
NIV

So God can't tell the future now before it happens?

We all have hearts of water that the Lord can move in whatever way He wants but doesn't move all hearts the way He wants.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[sawdust]

Make stuff up much in your carnal imagination? Read Ex 4:21. God's purpose in hardening Pharaoh's heart is not drivel you claim.

You should try following the conversation, I never made any such claim. I am not saying that is what He did. I asked the question based on the thinking of another.

Why don't you learn to control your tongue and keep your insults to yourself?