Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

Calvinists or Anti-Free Will Proponents simply are misreading those verses on what many Arminian believers would call “Prevenient Grace” verses (which I prefer to call “Divine Enlightenment or Enablement” verses).

Divine Enlightenment is the belief that God at the right time in a person’s life draws, convicts of sin, opens the heart and eyes to free the will of a person and remove the blinding of Satan in order to make a free will choice to either accept the saving gospel message by faith (to salvation) or reject it (and thus continue to remain lost). Faith leads to regeneration of the heart (to be born again) and gain access to God’s grace (salvation) (See Romans 5:2 KJV).

…

She doesn't believe in prevenient grace or depravity or divine enlightenment.

 

[homwardbound]

always to each their own. Free to choose and learn from and then change from or not
I see, We all fight to be free, yet God has and still calls all, for us each to see no one has to live like a refugee
God over us ally'll it is done for us all by Son who went willingly to that cross without any flesh fight =back at all
Love you Lord for that. Thank you, I see free to be new and do right, no matter what, thank you

 

[Magenta]

Divine Enlightenment is the belief that God at the right time in a person’s life draws, convicts of sin, opens the heart and eyes to free the will

Yes, the will needs to be freed because it is not to begin with, you miss the point by miles.

The flesh does not receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God, and is actually opposed to them.

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (2 Cor ch 3 v 17). If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ (Rom 8 v 9b). The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him (from John 14 v 17). Those not in Christ are not free (see Heb 2 v 15). Praise God if He has rescued you from the dominion of darkness! (see Col 1 v 13)

 

[OLDBUTNEW]

Yes, the will needs to be freed because it is not to begin with, you miss the point by miles.

The flesh does not receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God, and is actually opposed to them.

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (2 Cor ch 3 v 17). If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ (Rom 8 v 9b). The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him (from John 14 v 17). Those not in Christ are not free (see Heb 2 v 15). Praise God if He has rescued you from the dominion of darkness! (see Col 1 v 13)

@Magenta : You tell 'em, sister!!

 

[Magenta]

@Magenta : You tell 'em, sister!!

He is closer than some but still misses the point, and claims salvation is available to all while also saying some
never have a chance = not having their names written in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world.

 

[Rufus]

We can only assume it's his lunacy as He has the power and right to save whoever He wants and He wants all men to be saved but doesn't save all men.

On top of that we are supposed to accept he will give to us the desires of our hearts Ps.37:4 but can't even give Himself the desires of his heart.

It just gets crazier and crazier.

You still didn't answer the question. Laying aside your new "lunacy" blasphemy, you accused God earlier of favoritism if he chose some to be saved and most others not to be saved. So, again, what would be the basis for this favoritism since all men are sinners?

And God gives His people the desires of their heart. Ps 37:4 doesn't teach that God gives every human being on the planet the desires of their heart. This Psalm is clearly contrasting God's people with the wicked.

 

[Magenta]

You still didn't answer the question. Laying aside your new "lunacy" blasphemy, you accused
God earlier of favoritism if he chose some to be saved and most others not to be saved. So,
again, what would be the basis for this favoritism since all men are sinners?

And God gives His people the desires of their heart. Ps 37:4 doesn't teach that God gives every human being
on the planet the desires of their heart. This Psalm is clearly contrasting God's people with the wicked.

So true that the lunacy would be thinking God gives all men the evil desires of their incurably wicked hearts.

The desires God gives are laid on our new hearts, to submit and obey, and follow, none of which are possible to the unregenerate.

Psalm 37 verse 4 Delight yourself in the LORD, and He will give you the desires of your heart.

 

[cv5]

Yes, the will needs to be freed because it is not to begin with, you miss the point by miles. The flesh does not receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God, and is actually opposed to them.

Nonsensical intentionally deceptive unbiblical prattle.

1Th 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[BillyBob]

You still didn't answer the question. Laying aside your new "lunacy" blasphemy, you accused God earlier of favoritism if he chose some to be saved and most others not to be saved. So, again, what would be the basis for this favoritism since all men are sinners?

And God gives His people the desires of their heart. Ps 37:4 doesn't teach that God gives every human being on the planet the desires of their heart. This Psalm is clearly contrasting God's people with the wicked.

If God had chosen to save all, man would still rise up in protest that God has not allowed those who do not wish to be saved, the freedom to go to Hell if they want to!

There is just no way to please fallen man. . .

 

[Rufus]

You mean where the omniscient God, who knows the end from the beginning, declares what Pharaoh will do in advance and so warns Moses that in the end He, the Lord, will harden Pharaoh's heart because Pharaoh refused to listen and obey the very obvious signs that the Israelites kept being spared of the plagues while the Egyptians suffered? If you want to begin with Exodus 3 chronologically then it is the Pharaoh who made the first rebellious move.

Exodus 3:19-21
But I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not even by a mighty hand. 20 So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My wonders which I will do in its midst; and after that he will let you go. 21 And I will give this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be, when you go, that you shall not go empty-handed.

So seven verses of the Pharaoh refusing to listen and hardening his heart had no bearing whatsoever on the Lord hardening his heart?

Sure, if that is what you want to think, go for it. We are all just chess pieces on the board the Lord moves around at His sovereign whim. Our thoughts, desires, will has no value to Him therefore why consider them at all? Makes you wonder why God even bothered to create us that way.

You should take up pottery. You might learn the quality of the clay has an impact on what the Potter can do with it.

So, your god is a potter who has some serious limitations, heh? He needs to work with high quality clay, does he? You might want to learn what the one True Potter can do with clay by reading Rom 9:19-21.

Ex 3:19-21 is a prophecy. God predicted that Pharaoh would not let the Hebrews leave. And how did God know this: By gazing into a mythical cosmic crystal ball -- or by sovereignly acting on Pharaoh's heart? Why did you so dishonestly omit what follows in chapter 4 that tells us how God knew this?

Ex 4:21
21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
NIV

And, again, this passage harmonizes with Prov 21:1, which you totally ignored. And it harmonizes quite nicely with Act 2:23 which teaches that God's plans or purposes are the foundation to his foreknowledge, as well with Rom 9:17 that speaks to God's eternal purpose for Pharaoh. Plus you overlook the fact that man's ways are in God's hands -- not ours (Jer 10:23, etc.)!

 

[BillyBob]

haha maybe if we give him a Flintstone he will

A good flintstone may be hard to find. That's why I always carry my lightsaber!

 

[Rufus]

If God had chosen to save all, man would still rise up in protest that God has not allowed those who do not wish to be saved, the freedom to go to Hell if they want to!

There is just no way to please fallen man. . .

Exactly right! And I have broached this very point a few times in the past. FWers should be tickled pink that God gives man over to his depraved will so that wicked men can do whatever they think is right in their own eyes. What's not to like about true freedom!? But as you have said, there just ain't no pleasin' FWers!

Furthermore, sinners whose hearts have not been made fit by God to dwell with Him for all eternity would literally HATE being in God's holy presence. For what fellowship could the unrighteous possibly have with the righteous? They'd be much more at home in hell.

 

[sawdust]

You still didn't answer the question. Laying aside your new "lunacy" blasphemy, you accused God earlier of favoritism if he chose some to be saved and most others not to be saved. So, again, what would be the basis for this favoritism since all men are sinners?

And God gives His people the desires of their heart. Ps 37:4 doesn't teach that God gives every human being on the planet the desires of their heart. This Psalm is clearly contrasting God's people with the wicked.

I wasn't comparing men with men, wicked or otherwise, I was stating God can't deliver on His own desires so why should we believe Him when says He will give us ours? He wants all men to be saved 1Tim.2:4 but won't save all men. It's not like He can't, He only has to do His "thing" and "poof" you're saved.

I gave you the analogy regarding favourtism, you made the claim it was wrong but never gave a reason why, so I think the onus is own you to bring the receipts to the table.

 

[Magenta]

A good flintstone may be hard to find. That's why I always carry my lightsaber!

lightsabre

 

[Rufus]

This is what I originally wrote...so yes chat was able to present what i wrote in a digestible way "Here's a different perspective...Salvation is a three-phase process that is initiated by God alone via the Atonement. What was accomplished at the Atonement was universal Justification for all ungodly men (without merit or contrition of any kind by the sinner man). This was an unmerited gift from God. Messiah's Death, Blood and Life was accepted by the Father and in so doing Christ redeemed all men from the slavery of sin and death (making our Peace with God) and made it possible by trusting in His Faithfulness for us to enter into a living relationship with the Father that begins the New Birth at our Sanctification. This is where we are given His Spirit and are cooperatively transformed into the image of Christ; these are the works He has given us to walk in. He works in us by His Spirit that we have now indwelling in us; this is how we overcome..by His Blood and the word of our testimony. God at the Judgement will then purge us completely of all sin and present us as though we have never sinned; and we will be like the sinless Son of God. Those of mankind who are Justified by His Atonement but choose to resist God's offer of Covenant relationship by willingly being transformed into His image (Sanctification) will be punished in Hell for a time but after (God knows) they have been humbled and purged by the cleansing of the fiery punishment will eventually call on God as we all have who are Sanctified now into covenant relationship; so eventually they too will be Glorified and made to be like the sinless Son of God. How do we know this...? God has sworn that those He Justified "HE" will Glorify. It's not dependent on man (we would screw it up), but He has promised those He Justified He Will Glorify; you can't get any plainer than that! Evidenced by the fact that we all were made in His image; and God had a failsafe from before the Beginning...Christ crucified! When Adam sinned and his first-born son killed his youngest son...in both cases though both Adam and Cain had direct warning from God…they sinned anyway, but what did God do...He cursed the ground not Adam and He put a sign on Cain forehead to protect him. This is parental Love of a Father...His unconditional Covenants are His to accomplish...the one conditional Mosaic Covenant exposed just how sinful we are, and it became a Covenant of death to us! SO, the Father of Mercy and Justice paid the price for our freedom and wholeness because we could never meet His righteousness on our own, so as our Kinsman Redeemer He took our place and became victorious over death and He hid us in Christ, so we have perfect Peace now with God. The thing we need to remember is that though God does allow temporal punishment, that is only meant to humble us for our good; and even physical death like what happened to Pharaoh because of hard heartedness was only temporal. He intends to bring all His children (image of God) home that the enemy has corrupted. See Hebrewgospeldotcom to learn that the NT was originally written to the church in Hebrew and then translated into Greek later. There are only 4 surviving NT Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts. Scholars would have you believe that because there are tons and tons of Greek NT manuscripts (compared to the Sephardic Hebrew) and that they are the oldest…that this = "original" NT writtings.... that is flimsy at best and purposely biased. God always goes to the Jew first and then the Gentile..this is the model Jesus also followed. The first century Believers were mostly Jewish and all the Disciples who wrote the NT were Jewish eyewitnesses of Christ. The reason the Hebrew NT manuscripts are so rare is because very quickly many more Gentiles became believers and fewer and fewer Jews were continuing to convert to Christianity, so the need for Greek translations was practical. The OT Greek translation took OT Hebrew and stylized it into a Greek linguistic construct, but no one ever says the Greek Septuagint predates the OT Hebrew! The Greek NT is obviously a translation from the Hebrew...the evidence of its Hebraic originality is the chiasms, idioms and Covenantal imagery. The Hebrew NT is written in a Conventual relationship construct whereas the Greek is abstract in its concepts and emphasizes our faith not His Faithfulness; as an example, Greek says in John 1 "The Word","The Word","The Word" and the Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts say "The Son", "The Son", "The Son".

Universal atonement isn't possible; for God gives his precious saving grace only to the humble, which hardly describes the proud, arrogant, boastful, idolatrous God-hating world.

 

[sawdust]

So, your god is a potter who has some serious limitations, heh? He needs to work with high quality clay, does he? You might want to learn what the one True Potter can do with clay by reading Rom 9:19-21.

Ex 3:19-21 is a prophecy. God predicted that Pharaoh would not let the Hebrews leave. And how did God know this: By gazing into a mythical cosmic crystal ball -- or by sovereignly acting on Pharaoh's heart? Why did you so dishonestly omit what follows in chapter 4 that tells us how God knew this?

Ex 4:21
21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
NIV

And, again, this passage harmonizes with Prov 21:1, which you totally ignored. And it harmonizes quite nicely with Act 2:23 which teaches that God's plans or purposes are the foundation to his foreknowledge, as well with Rom 9:17 that speaks to God's eternal purpose for Pharaoh. Plus you overlook the fact that man's ways are in God's hands -- not ours (Jer 10:23, etc.)!

And why do you ignore that Pharaoh hardened His heart before the Lord hardened it. The Lord gives men what they want. Chapters 3 and 4 are outlining the results, the following chapters fill in the middle.

Your proverbs 21:1? So tell me, which is it, we have hearts of stone the Lord must pound to dust or hearts of water the Lord can direct it's flow?

You really do not understand scripture as well as you think.

 

[Rufus]

I wasn't comparing men with men, wicked or otherwise, I was stating God can't deliver on His own desires so why should we believe Him when says He will give us ours? He wants all men to be saved 1Tim.2:4 but won't save all men. It's not like He can't, He only has to do His "thing" and "poof" you're saved.

I gave you the analogy regarding favourtism, you made the claim it was wrong but never gave a reason why, so I think the onus is own you to bring the receipts to the table.

If it was an analogy, it was really, really lame. How can I comment on something that was incomprehensible to begin with? Just answer the question already: What would be the basis for God playing favorites since all men are sinners?

And God does desire and has promised that he will grant HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE their desires. And He has by putting the grace of the Fear of the Lord into his people's hearts and by circumcising the hearts of his covenant people. And this kind of work in his people's hearts produced godly desires so that they want Christ to save them!

 

[sawdust]

If God had chosen to save all, man would still rise up in protest that God has not allowed those who do not wish to be saved, the freedom to go to Hell if they want to!

There is just no way to please fallen man. . .

Talk about irony. The wicked are free to choose to go to hell but no-one is free to choose to follow the light?

Whatever happened to the new heart they were supposed to get that makes them want to follow the Lord?

Your doctrine is full of inconsistencies.

 

[sawdust]

If it was an analogy, it was really, really lame. How can I comment on something that was incomprehensible to begin with? Just answer the question already: What would be the basis for God playing favorites since all men are sinners?

Just another excuse because you have no answers. Talk to the hand as they say.

 

[sawdust]

And God does desire and has promised that he will grant HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE their desires. And He has by putting the grace of the Fear of the Lord into his people's hearts and by circumcising the hearts of his covenant people. And this kind of work in his people's hearts produced godly desires so that they want Christ to save them!

You still don't get it. It's not about God giving His people desires, it's about God not giving Himself His desires.

Strewth, you can be hard to get through to sometimes.