Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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No Calvinist has ever been able to explain 2 Thessalonians 2:10 and Jonah chapter 3 with any kind of rational sense that does justice to what these passages actually say. They have to ignore the plain reading of Scripture.

So my question is: Dear Calvinists and Anti-Free Will proponents, can you explain how your theology works in light of the plain reading of 2 Thessalonians 2:10, and Jonah chapter 3?
....


2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

👆 The man of lawlessness and the great delusion

As for Jonah 3, which particular verse?
 
I suggest you take dark Scripture to the lord

So, is it a dark Scripture when it contradicts your belief?
That’s insane and a clear sign you are holding to a false belief, and not that it is the fault of God not communicating clearly in this instance.

Again, the fact that there are memes of how these things are a mystery in Scripture is scary.


…..
 
So, is it a dark Scripture when it contradicts your belief?
That’s insane and a clear sign you are holding to a false belief, and not that it is the fault of God not communicating clearly in this instance.
I don't even know what your talking about.

You tell me what this verse is saying to you

How do you understand it for you.

Nobody else,

Tell me how you understand it.
 
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@Jordon Yes, I have noticed that, Bro! How ridiculous, eh!
Don't worry m

The lord will have mercy and he will harden whom he hardens 🤩

It means the lord can harden my heart to unbelief with patience to

Which means he can hardened my heart to mind boggling ways m 🤩

Well utterly butterly actually
 
I just wanted to raise a point, here; and this is especially for the Free-Willies here: If my brother and mate @Jordon and I want to have a bit of friendly banter here, why are some of you complaining and making obnoxious comments about it?!
 
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Ok God said all that he has is in your hand. Just dont touch him.

Satan could of killed one kid or one wife or just the livestock or he could of went.... you know what this is God im dealing with here there is no way this ends without egg on my face. Im gonna go back to walking to and fro. Nope he decided to go all out. How is any of that God's fault? Are you accusing God of being evil? See last paragraph.....

Didn't God place all of Job's possessions in Satan's hands (Job 1:12)? If God had not done that, would the devil have had any power?

Secondly, and for the second time, I am not accusing God of being evil, but rather I'm throwing one of big carnal objections to the Doctrines of Grace back in the faces of your FWers! It is YOU guys who have said repeatedly that if God withholds his saving grace from anyone and then judges them for their sins, this would make God unjust since their deprivation of divine grace caused their sins.

Now....fast forward to Job: Did not God his withhold grace from Job when He stuck Satan on him?
 
I just wanted to raise a point, here; and this is especially for the Free-Willies here: If my brother and mate @Jordon and I want to have a bit of friendly banter here, why are some of you complaining and making obnoxious comments about it?!
warning lol there lord will have mercy
 
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God desired salvation for all men.
The evidence for that is how Jesus died for the sins of the entire world.

God no longer desires salvation for all men because He knows better.
But, He found a way to not know how men would choose before creating them.

That way was revealed to us in the Incarnation.
For Jesus needed to make himself become as a man in his function.
He had to do so perfectly in order to die in our place.

Who, eternally existing in the form of God,
did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped,
but emptied himself
by taking the form of a slave,
by becoming in the likeness of people.
And being found in appearance like a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to the point of death,
that is, death on a cross.
Philippians 2:6-8​

The Lord God of Israel who made himself to become Jesus has the capacity to make himself become as a man.
To make himself to function and think like a perfectly righteous man.

It was in that state that he was set forth by the Father to create all things in his perfect mega genius mind.

In that way? Jesus could not know how any man or angel would choose after being created while he was yet in the state of denying himself to be omniscient.

The one righteous thing Jesus had in mind when creating us was that every angel and person he created would love the Father as he loves the Father.

Then...

After creating all things? He then returned to his omniscience.
Only then, to know the outcome of having created angels and men with volition.
That is when He agreed to go to the Cross when the time to do so was to be right.

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written
in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world." Revelation 13:8​
grace and peace ...........​
grace and peace ............

You're quite the expert on circular reasoning! You need to prove from scripture that the "world" in Jn 3:16 is being used in the distributive sense. And the only way to do that is to provide explicit statements from the bible that God loves the proud, the wicked, the depraved, the corrupt, etc.. I have already provided several such statements that prove that God loves the righteous, God-fearers, believers, those who call upon his name, those who reciprocate God's love, and those who love His Son. Plus I have proved from explicit statements in the Word that God's love is conditional in nature! So...you've got your work cut out for you. Get busy working on your Mission Impossible! :rolleyes:
 
Didn't God place all of Job's possessions in Satan's hands (Job 1:12)? If God had not done that, would the devil have had any power?

Secondly, and for the second time, I am not accusing God of being evil, but rather I'm throwing one of big carnal objections to the Doctrines of Grace back in the faces of your FWers! It is YOU guys who have said repeatedly that if God withholds his saving grace from anyone and then judges them for their sins, this would make God unjust since their deprivation of divine grace caused their sins.

Now....fast forward to Job: Did not God his withhold grace from Job when He stuck Satan on him?

Once again. He did not stick Satan on him. He gave Satan the option to do as he pleases. Satan could have just went back to wandering to and fro but didnt.

Grace is an unmerited gift mercy is not getting what you deserve. So did he really take either of those away when he didnt let Satan touch him the first time or kill him the second?
 
Just trying to help

Romans 9:18

Says God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy on

And God will harden a heart on whom he chooses

But this is also his sovereign will

The question is

Is he hardening your heart in unbelief for a reason

And if he's not then surely his mercy lives there
look at what is revealed in Rom 1 ... the gospel of Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation is either believed or not believed. If God's Word is not believed, it is because a person suppresses the truth in unrighteousness. As we step further and further away from God, He lets go of us ... and please note, mankind chafes at God's restraint, then steps further away from Him as He lets go.


When the gospel is revealed and a person believes, he or she receives the promise:

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


If a person does not believe the gospel when it is revealed, it is due to the person suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, and he or she receives the consequence of having suppressed the truth:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness


After they do stupid stuff because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, their foolish heart becomes darkened:

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened


After they do stupid stuff due to darkened heart, God gives them over to uncleanness

Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves


After they do stupid stuff due to uncleanness, God gives them over to vile affections:

Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature


After they do stupid stuff due to vile affections, God gives them over to a reprobate mind:

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient


Romans 1 reveals the patience of God and His lovingkindness even as mankind steps further and further away from Him in their abhorrent behavior before the God of all Creation ... the God we should be reverently worshipping and giving all honor and glory.



also look at what is revealed in 2 Peter 3:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God is patient and longsuffering toward mankind ... reaching out to all the over the whole of the lifetime of all.

God's patience, grace, mercy, long-suffering, and lovingkindness is on full display in the record in Romans 1 as well as in 2 Peter 3:9.

.
 
You're quite the expert on circular reasoning! You need to prove from scripture that the "world" in Jn 3:16 is being used in the distributive sense. And the only way to do that is to provide explicit statements from the bible that God loves the proud, the wicked, the depraved, the corrupt, etc.. I have already provided several such statements that prove that God loves the righteous, God-fearers, believers, those who call upon his name, those who reciprocate God's love, and those who love His Son. Plus I have proved from explicit statements in the Word that God's love is conditional in nature! So...you've got your work cut out for you. Get busy working on your Mission Impossible! :rolleyes:

What's happening between you two?
 
Once again. He did not stick Satan on him. He gave Satan the option to do as he pleases. Satan could have just went back to wandering to and fro but didnt.

Grace is an unmerited gift mercy is not getting what you deserve. So did he really take either of those away when he didnt let Satan touch him the first time or kill him the second?
True and faithful Calvinists have Satan being God’s hitman. It’s sick and twisted. If they do not, then they aren’t a Calvinist.
 
Your not getting it m

I'm not going to run around in circles

Here it is

In deauorimny 7 the lord say show them no mercy to his people
In Deuteronomy 7, God told the children of Israel to destroy the idolatrous nations inhabiting the land of Canaan:

Deuteronomy 7:1-5

1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

vs 1 – God promised that He would remove the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hives, and the Jebusites ... seven nations that were greater and mightier than the children of Israel.

vs 2 – God instructed the children of Israel to smite them, utterly destroy them, make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them.

vs 3 – do not marry them ... why? ... answer in vs 4.

vs 4 – if the sons of the children of Israel marry the daughters from the nations, the sons would be turned away from following God to serve other gods (idols/idolatry).

vs 5 – God's instruction – destroy their altars, break down their images, cut down their groves, burn their graven images.

The children of Israel failed to do as God instructed as revealed in Joshua 9.




Jordon said:
I'll show you the wisdom

The lord your God will harden whom he hardens

Romans 9:18

In this passage he will be saying to his believers by his sovereign will when the time comes and your confronted with unbelief, I will harden your heart to unbelief
God hardening the heart is not a good thing, Jordon.

God's instruction to us is that we are not to harden our hearts.

When we come across folks who treat us harshly due to unbelief, God is with us through the onslaught of their unbelief. God strengthens us so that we may endure, God comforts us when our hearts feel the sting of fiery darts, God brings peace to our hearts when we are anxious.

We are also instructed to be like the Bereans ... bring what is being told to us to the Word of God and let the Word of God discern whether what someone tells us is in alignment with God's Word.

Acts 17:10-12

10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

now look at what the religious folks did when they heard Paul and Silas had gone into Berea:

Act 17:13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.

This is what Paul dealt with wherever he preached. He went into various locations to teach God's Word ... then the religious folks would come in and cause a ruckus.

Paul endured the onslaught and when Paul asked God to remove the thorn in the flesh from him, God told Paul My grace is sufficient for thee.

2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

I do not believe Rufus or Genez are treating you harshly due to unbelief. I believe both are here sharing what they know and believe from Scripture. This is a Bible discussion forum and it is not for the faint of heart ... nor is it a forum to belittle others ... however, the discussion can get heated and sometimes we need to take a step back so that we can be settled by God and discuss Scripture in a meaningful manner while treating other believers as God would have us treat them.

.
 
Matthew 13:11-17
Jesus says it is GIVEN to KNOW the mysteries of the kingdom to some and not others. He goes on to say that He spoke in parables so that some seeing will see not and hearing will not hear or understand. I thought Jesus wanted everyone to hear and understand and see and perceive. He sure is impugning the character of God.

Oh my...it sounds like Jesus is playing favorites to boot.
 
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In Deuteronomy 7, God told the children of Israel to destroy the idolatrous nations inhabiting the land of Canaan:

Deuteronomy 7:1-5

1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

vs 1 – God promised that He would remove the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hives, and the Jebusites ... seven nations that were greater and mightier than the children of Israel.

vs 2 – God instructed the children of Israel to smite them, utterly destroy them, make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them.

vs 3 – do not marry them ... why? ... answer in vs 4.

vs 4 – if the sons of the children of Israel marry the daughters from the nations, the sons would be turned away from following God to serve other gods (idols/idolatry).

vs 5 – God's instruction – destroy their altars, break down their images, cut down their groves, burn their graven images.

The children of Israel failed to do as God instructed as revealed in Joshua 9.





God hardening the heart is not a good thing, Jordon.

God's instruction to us is that we are not to harden our hearts.

When we come across folks who treat us harshly due to unbelief, God is with us through the onslaught of their unbelief. God strengthens us so that we may endure, God comforts us when our hearts feel the sting of fiery darts, God brings peace to our hearts when we are anxious.

We are also instructed to be like the Bereans ... bring what is being told to us to the Word of God and let the Word of God discern whether what someone tells us is in alignment with God's Word.

Acts 17:10-12

10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

now look at what the religious folks did when they heard Paul and Silas had gone into Berea:

Act 17:13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.

This is what Paul dealt with wherever he preached. He went into various locations to teach God's Word ... then the religious folks would come in and cause a ruckus.

Paul endured the onslaught and when Paul asked God to remove the thorn in the flesh from him, God told Paul My grace is sufficient for thee.

2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

I do not believe Rufus or Genez are treating you harshly due to unbelief. I believe both are here sharing what they know and believe from Scripture. This is a Bible discussion forum and it is not for the faint of heart ... nor is it a forum to belittle others ... however, the discussion can get heated and sometimes we need to take a step back so that we can be settled by God and discuss Scripture in a meaningful manner while treating other believers as God would have us treat them.
God hardening a heart is not a good thing eh ?

Are you completely sure of this ?

Think about it please
 
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True and faithful Calvinists have Satan being God’s hitman. It’s sick and twisted. If they do not, then they aren’t a Calvinist.

Or bulldog! I mean...Could the devil have touched anything whatsoever of Job's without God placing everything into Satan's hands, save for Job's physical well being?
 
Any time you want to properly explain 2 Thessalonians 2:10, and Jonah chapter 3, I am all ears.
But we both know you will not really do that because these passages refute the Calvinist or Anti-Free Will beliefs.



....
may I answer your problem sir if you can believe what I'm telling you is true.

When moses spoke to his people like all the prophets the word he was speaking where alive and active because God had delivered them words , that cut through to people hearts mind and conscience,

in Nineveh the prophet chosen johna, spoke the lords alive and active word placed in his heart,

He spoke them and they responded and repented, and they heard only because his word was alive and active. That cut through to there hearts

Thessalonians is the same, if you hear his alive and active word by what ever means you respond .
 
Well, either I missed your reply to 2 Thessalonians 2:10, and Jonah chapter 3, or you gave an answer that did not really address the actual words of these verses properly. Please provide a post # for your answer or repost it here. If not, then I will take that as admission that you truly have no intention of properly explaining these passages.



Please restate the question and I will do my best to answer (when I have time).



....

The "might" doesn't pertain to whether or not those who receive a love of the truth will be saved; it pertains
to all of the "them that perish" - some portion of which will be given a love of the truth (Christ is the Truth) by God's mercy and definitely saved, the others not, therefore, not all will receive it - some will some won't - hence the "might" being appropriate given that group includes both; that is, the they of "they received not" includes everyone who is perishing but sub-divided between those who are perishing and will never receive a love of the truth and those who are perishing but will ultimately receive a love of the truth, and when they receive that love of the truth (Christ), that Christ is already indwelling them and moving within them. Almost everyone born is born unsaved so they are born perishing, but the elect, though perishing, will be given a love of Christ upon their salvation and before their death.
Basically, it's the foundational salvation message of the gospel just stated another way.

Capiche?


[2Th 2:10 KJV] 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

👆 The man of lawlessness and the great delusion

As for Jonah 3, which particular verse?

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV):
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

It makes no difference if when this happens. Here the reason is clear. Men perish not because the god of Calvinism did not Elect them, but because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved. Their condemnation rests upon their rejection of truth, not an arbitrary decree. Calvinism’s doctrine of “Unconditional Election” says there are no conditions at all, no reasons given why one is saved and another is not. This is flatly contrary to the plain statement of 2 Thessalonians 2:10.

Jonah 3:10 (KJV):
“And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.”

Look at the full context. Jonah entered Nineveh proclaiming God’s wrath: “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown” (Jonah 3:4). The people were warned of certain destruction. But instead of being destroyed, the Ninevites humbled themselves, fasted, and turned from their evil ways. Scripture says plainly that God turned back from the judgment He was going to bring upon them because of what they did, and not based upon some sort of Unconditional Election. This shows that God’s mercy was conditional on their repentance, not on a hidden decree.


….
 
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