Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Genez]

OK ... I now get it.

I now know why the Lord led me here.

It is for gaslight testing.

Some here can care less about Biblical accuracy.
Yet, they claim to be the ones who have accuracy...

I showed Magenta Scripture.
No one has refuted what was said.
They can only resort to name-calling.

I pity some here for when they go before the Lord for their evaluation.
I wish it were not so.

Unless you repent.
You are going to be so sorry.


.....

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The sin/ rebellious " nature ", ( the "old man ") was passed down to the descendants of Adam and Eve. When we receive Jesus the Christ as our Savior we are given a new nature "Eph. 4:22-24 " That you put off concerning the former conversation ( way of life ) the old man (nature), which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that you put on the new man (nature) which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." To put off or to put on are a matter of the will.

agree the born again believer is to put off the old man and live in light of who he or she is in the Lord Jesus Christ (the new man). This is a lifelong endeavor from the time a person is born again to the time he or she sees the Lord face to face.

The "test" of where the believers choose to live life is in what is revealed in our lives ...

do we see fruit of the Spirit (mercy, kindness, humility, meekness, long-suffering, forbearance, forgiveness, love, joy, peace, thankfulness)? ...

or do we see the works of the flesh (anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthiness, lying, stealing, jesting, foolish talking)?

satan's worked very diligently in causing division among the one body of the Lord Jesus Christ ... schisms, strife, contentions ... these things ought not so to be ...

.

 

[Jackson129]

You can read can't you? God sent Israel to Jericho to destroy them. This is what scripture teaches. Why wouldn't you believe what scripture clearly teaches?

Why did God send them to Jericho? Wasent it to use the Israel army to judge the land of Canaan as well as give the land to isreal. And by cleansing the land of Canaan and giving it to Israel was in a way evangelization of the land cause it allowed the word of Yahweh yo spread.

 

[Magenta]

I showed Magenta Scripture.

You do realize I normally have you on ignore?

I showed you Scripture and you want to argue with me about it. Not interested.

If you disagree with the Scriptures posted just say so instead of pretending I am saying things I am not.

I never denied having been part of the world before being called out of the world.

I have said so many times. Your whole premise around this is ridiculous to the extreme.

Probably why I normally ignore you. You want to make non-points just to argue.

John 14 v 17a, Romans 8 v 6-9 ~ “Inability” in Bible. The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Praise be to God for calling me out of the world.

 

[Cameron143]

Why did God send them to Jericho? Wasent it to use the Israel army to judge the land of Canaan as well as give the land to isreal. And by cleansing the land of Canaan and giving it to Israel was in a way evangelization of the land cause it allowed the word of Yahweh yo spread.

You had it all correct until the end. If they killed the inhabitants of the land, then everyone else already knew about God. Also, not only judgment, but the keeping of the promise to Abraham.

 

[LifelongLearner]

However, since a human CAN NOT Self-generate Biblical FAITH (Rom 10:17, Heb 11:1), there's obviously more to it than "Mental assent" - Intellectual belief. Intellectual belief IS NOT "Substantive", and is only "Evidence" of personal pre-conditioning / experience.

Biblical FAITH is entirely predicated on GOD'S ACTION (Rom 10:17), i.e. God's WORD TO THE INDIVIDUAL - as it was in Abram's case.

Abram responded in FAITH (imperfectly - the "Lot issue") ONLY as the direct result of God's WORD to him, which was substantive enough for him to make significant life changes. His actions were not the result of personal planning, economic conditions, or personal interest considerations. Abram responded purely on the SUBSTANCE, and EVIDENCE of God's instructions.



When FAITH COMES - typically in the form of CONVICTION OF SIN, only THEN does the "Free-will" option become viable. The Calvinist "I" (irresistability) is a "Theological Construct", not definitively formalized Biblically. The

In my own case, back in '63, I was fully conscious of the simple fact that ONLY UNDER CONVICTION was it possible to repent and call out in Faith for Jesus SIN OFFERING (Isa 53:10) to be mine. I had the FREE WILL option to "Walk away" from the Conviction, and probably would have - if I knew that I'd get another chance - but since God doesn't ALWAYS "Strive with man" (Gen 6:3).

As it was, in my status at the time, Surrender, and repentance were the only SENSIBLE reactions. I'd already walked away on other occasions in which Conviction of SIN was given, and I knew from personal experience that the conviction would subside.

That's an interesting reply Bob, which i pretty much agree with. Also, i'm gobsmacked you were old enough to understand and react to conviction back in '63, you definitely look well for it mate

 

[Magenta]

Hello @LifelongLearner always lovely to see you, I do hope you are well and that your little princess did not suffer distress
at any noise the other night. Do people there let off great rounds of fire-crackers and all kinds of fire works on Halloween?

 

[Jordon]

Thank you, Jordon, you are funny and sweet! It is of course up to God though few make it to a hundred LOL

Thanks I appreciate that, but with your will from God I wouldn't be surprised if you still here when your 120.

And if we believe Donald trump it could be your still drawing a pension at a 150 years old

 

[LifelongLearner]

yeah the problem is anything other than not recognising free will for you is freedom of thought becomes a head shrink

Yep, we certainly have choice but free will involves unilateral capability to execute our choices. Which we don't have, we often have to cede to the wants and needs of others.

However, as i've said before i'm certain Adam and Eve had free will in their perfect state, to make the choices they did. However, being fallen means we don't have free will because we can't make pure, uncontaminated choices and are often forced to cede to the wishes of others. I also think Adam and Eve are probably saved despite what they did, think they were genuinely repentant later on. Certain we will have free will again when we're restored too.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Hello @LifelongLearner always lovely to see you, I do hope you are well and that your little princess did not suffer distress
at any noise the other night. Do people there let off great rounds of fire-crackers and all kinds of fire works on Halloween?

Lovely seeing you too friend, it's been pretty rough lately but hoping/praying i'm emerging from that tunnel. What's nice is typing is easier for me currently but i won't push my luck.

I was worried about the fireworks for li'l Missy too but it was quiet this year, think most people went to the display only. Anyway, hope all's good with you too Magenta, i'm late with her lunch so better go sort it before she gets upset. Blessings and hugs for now

 

[Jordon]

Yep, we certainly have choice but free will involves unilateral capability to execute our choices. Which we don't have, we often have to cede to the wants and needs of others.

However, as i've said before i'm certain Adam and Eve had free will in their perfect state, to make the choices they did. However, being fallen means we don't have free will because we can't make pure, uncontaminated choices and are often forced to cede to the wishes of others. I also think Adam and Eve are probably saved despite what they did, think they were genuinely repentant later on. Certain we will have free will again when we're restored too.

I believe they had Gods enabling permissive will in there seed to make the right choice only.

People will say that's a robot.

But no that would be God's image

For instance if he had put free will in there hearts how could he have held them to account ?

That would just be unacceptable.

I believe where it all Goes wrong, is mans seed when it was first created still needed pollination m but our seed at first creation still had his will inside. Before it suffered sin entering, it could have been if Adam made the right choice he could have been pollinated

 

[LifelongLearner]

I believe they had Gods enabling permissive will in there seed to make the right choice only.

People will say that's a robot.

But no that would be God's image

For instance if he had put free will in there hearts how could he have held them to account ?

That would just be unacceptable.

I believe where it all Goes wrong, is mans seed when it was first created still needed pollination m but our seed at first creation still had his will inside.

Must go in a min but having free will doesn't absolve one from the consequences of our actions, hence why we became fallen because of their choice.
Hope that makes sense, i must go now but will try to look in later.

 

[Jordon]

Must go in a min but having free will doesn't absolve one from the consequences of our actions, hence why we became fallen because of their choice.
Hope that makes sense, i must go now but will try to look in later.

I believe it would be different for a new seed uncorrupted m

For instance m all other seeds always go the way intended by God's Design

 

[Jordon]

Must go in a min but having free will doesn't absolve one from the consequences of our actions, hence why we became fallen because of their choice.
Hope that makes sense, i must go now but will try to look in later.

it boils down to they had freedom of thought in the garden m but they only had his permissive will in there seed

 

[Gpianolf]

Yep, we certainly have choice but free will involves unilateral capability to execute our choices. Which we don't have, we often have to cede to the wants and needs of others.

However, as i've said before i'm certain Adam and Eve had free will in their perfect state, to make the choices they did. However, being fallen means we don't have free will because we can't make pure, uncontaminated choices and are often forced to cede to the wishes of others. I also think Adam and Eve are probably saved despite what they did, think they were genuinely repentant later on. Certain we will have free will again when we're restored too.

I find it more challenging to use the term "free will" because of the assumptions that have been made about it. The terminology lends itself to believing that we are all autonomous creatures. Here's what I said earlier. I hope it helps.

A famous musician once sang a song saying that we are all slaves to something. And it turns out that this is biblically accurate. I used to believe that what is known as Calvinism was heretical. Once I learned more about it and what it was teaching, as well as what it wasn't teaching, I realized I was wrong. Understanding what a term or label originally and truly means is very important. Otherwise, you have groups of people all saying literally the same thing but meaning vastly different things.

I say that to say, the doctrine of free will isn't what people have made it out to be, and furthermore, the doctrine of election is not what others have made it out to be. Free will does not mean we are fully or even partially autonomous creatures. There is zero evidence for that given the most basic truths of life: we don't decide when and where we are born, we don't decide which family we are born into, we don't decide how our lives shake out, and aside from suicide (which I would still argue isn't totally controlled by the individual) we don't decide when or how we die. And that's just to name a few. Adversely, the doctrine of election doesn't teach that we are all soulless robots, as many "free will-ers" suggest. Paul clarifies ALL of this in Romans 6:15-23. We aren't robots, and we aren't autonomous. We are slaves. Period. It's about who our master is. It's either Christ or it's Satan. Case closed.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you go on presenting yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching to which you were given over, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, leading to further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, leading to sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then having from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your benefit, leading to sanctification, and the end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:15-23 LSB

 

[cv5]

Why did God send them to Jericho? Wasent it to use the Israel army to judge the land of Canaan as well as give the land to isreal. And by cleansing the land of Canaan and giving it to Israel was in a way evangelization of the land cause it allowed the word of Yahweh yo spread.

I will PM you some study lectures. Privately. The nay-sayers get nothing.

FYI, just as the future 7 year tribulation is certainly, undoubtedly an evangelistic campaign, so was the Jericho/Canaan scenario.
In fact, the "conquest" of Canaan is a "type", an intentional microcosm, of the 7 year tribulation.
Joshua = Jesus (in context).

I will tell you what friend, there are persons here who actually know what they are talking about, and many who definitely do not.
It should be known to you by now who's who in the zoo.....

Joshua 6:25 (ESV): “But Rahab the prostitute and her father’s household and all who belonged to her, Joshua saved alive. And she has lived in Israel to this day, because she hid the messengers whom Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.”​

Here, the two spies are called “the messengers” (Hebrew: הַמַּלְאָכִים, hammal’akim).

*******************************************************************************************************************************

The concept of them as "two witnesses" is drawn from Rahab's own words in Joshua 2:12–14, where she binds the spies with an oath (a legal act requiring two witnesses under biblical law; cf. Deuteronomy 19:15). This oath is what saves her family in Joshua 6:17, 22–25.

Rev 11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

[Jackson129]

You had it all correct until the end. If they killed the inhabitants of the land, then everyone else already knew about God. Also, not only judgment, but the keeping of the promise to Abraham.

They did save rahab and they didnt kill everyone single person in all the land. Cities had ot bad. Usually extermination.
Im sure some country folk got evangelized.

 

[Gpianolf]

it boils down to they had freedom of thought in the garden m but they only had his permissive will in there seed

I think I understand what you are trying to say, but, and no offense, you have worded it in a strange way. We are definitely created in His image, and every person is a moral agent capable of knowing (since we are made in His image) the difference between right and wrong. But "Freedom of thought" and "His permissive will in their seed"? I don't mean to be too literal and say those aren't in Scripture, but I do believe at least there are better ways of putting it.

For instance, the idea of freedom of thought lacks any direct evidence. I'm not saying they could not think. However, what is true is that they couldn't think up ideas of their own. Both we and they are constrained by our circumstances on what we are and are not capable of thinking or doing. Think of it like a fence for your dog. Generally, it doesn't matter what your dog does inside the fence so long as he stays within those set boundaries. And maybe that's what you're trying to communicate, and I'm just ignorant enough that I don't understand. Haha!

 

[Jordon]

I will PM you some study lectures. Privately. The nay-sayers get nothing.

FYI, just as the future 7 year tribulation is certainly, undoubtedly an evangelistic campaign, so was the Jericho/Canaan scenario.
In fact, the "conquest" of Canaan is a "type", an intentional microcosm, of the 7 year tribulation.
Joshua = Jesus (in context).

I will tell you what friend, there are persons here who actually know what they are talking about, and many who definitely do not.
It should be known to you by now who's who in the zoo.....

Joshua 6:25 (ESV): “But Rahab the prostitute and her father’s household and all who belonged to her, Joshua saved alive. And she has lived in Israel to this day, because she hid the messengers whom Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.”​

Here, the two spies are called “the messengers” (Hebrew: הַמַּלְאָכִים, hammal’akim).

*******************************************************************************************************************************

The concept of them as "two witnesses" is drawn from Rahab's own words in Joshua 2:12–14, where she binds the spies with an oath (a legal act requiring two witnesses under biblical law; cf. Deuteronomy 19:15). This oath is what saves her family in Joshua 6:17, 22–25.

Rev 11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

How is it you won't recognise rhab as a strategic plan by God

 

[Jordon]

I think I understand what you are trying to say, but, and no offense, you have worded it in a strange way. We are definitely created in His image, and every person is a moral agent capable of knowing (since we are made in His image) the difference between right and wrong. But "Freedom of thought" and "His permissive will in their seed"? I don't mean to be too literal and say those aren't in Scripture, but I do believe at least there are better ways of putting it.

For instance, the idea of freedom of thought lacks any direct evidence. I'm not saying they could not think. However, what is true is that they couldn't think up ideas of their own. Both we and they are constrained by our circumstances on what we are and are not capable of thinking or doing. Think of it like a fence for your dog. Generally, it doesn't matter what your dog does inside the fence so long as he stays within those set boundaries. And maybe that's what you're trying to communicate, and I'm just ignorant enough that I don't understand. Haha!

I had a feeling it was going to go this way, it often does with freedom of thought lol.

The most credible and acceptable answer which answers The whole plot before you lose the plot, is just not accepted by freedom of choice or thought. but it is by his permissive will

Giving you freedom of thought is so that when the times comes to accept pollination his permissive will inside there heart could overcome the freedom of thought and accept pollination

Of course we then have animals created with one intended purpose all capable of doing harm to other animals when not accepting pollination, of course you should have freedom of thought m