Saved by faith alone?
- Thread starter Lamar
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All good information. Some discussion:
- In a recent post I asked you what the title "Christ" means. At first you excerpted from your #3 above which describes what Christ has done. When next pressed for more you said "Anointed" which is translation from Greek to English (and ultimately back to Hebrew). IMO you get closest to defining "Christ" in #4, at least in it's main aspect.
- The discussion has been re what faith is - how it's defined by the Text. Though you mention of a few of the defining aspects of pistis above, at somewhat of a quick read, you use only one word "accept" that could be a stand-in for believe, which puts us right back into the discussion re: what pisteuo & pistis mean.
- IMO this response is similar in method to the faith-alone methodology being expressed - it seeks to define pistis by the content it believes rather than by what pistis is.
The Greek term hupokritēs (note our transliteration "hypocrite") literally means “actor” or “stage player”, someone who pretends to be something they are not.
In 1Tim1:5 & 2Tim1:5 Paul refers to pistis (faith) as being anupokritos (basically non-hypocritical) - meaning "without pretense, genuine".
So, there is "genuine faith" and logically by implication there is non-genuine faith.
Others in this thread have previously posted this reference.
You describe a hermeneutical technique that is comparable to the overlays of the various bodily systems
that I enjoyed looking at in anatomy books, which is that it is impossible to say everything about a topic
in one or two passes, but the many descriptions one winds up with in Scripture should be viewed as
complementary rather than contradictory. Another analogy is describing an elephant from various angles.
I notice that you seem dissatisfied with what I have said about faith so far, but that you seem reluctant to
supply what is missing.
Here are my stand-in synonyms for faith based on Scripture:
GRFS per Jesus
Jesus indicated God's requirement for salvation (GRFS) in various ways,
some stated in terms of faith (F) and some in terms of works (W):
From Matthew
- Repent (4:17, F)
- Recognize one’s spiritual poverty (5:3, F)
- Be righteous (5:20, W)
- Love your enemies (5:44, W)
- Forgive those who offend you (6:14, 18:35, W)
- Serve God (6:24&33, W)
- Enter the narrow gate (7:13, F)
- Do God’s will (7:21 & 12:50, F&W)
- Hear and act (7:24, F&W)
- Confess Jesus (10:32, W)
- Love Jesus (10:37, F)
- Give life to Jesus (10:39& 16:24-25, F)
- Have no doubt (11:6, F)
- Come to Jesus (11:28, F)
- Learn from Jesus (11:29, W)
- Be for Jesus (12:30, F)
- Understand (13:23, F)
- Be good (5:48 & 13:38,43,49, W)
- Value salvation (13:44-46, F)
- Believe Jesus (16:16& 21:32, F)
- Become humble (18:3-4 & 19:14, W)
- Forgive others (18:35, W)
- Give to the poor (19:21, W)
- Follow Jesus (19:21&29, F)
- Yield fruit (21:43, W)
- Dress appropriately (22:11-14, cf. RV 16:15, W)
- Love God, neighbor & self (22:37-40, W)
- Hold out until the end (24:13, F)
- Keep awake (24:42 & 25:13, F)
- Be ready (24:44, F&W)
- Be trustworthy and useful (25:21&30, F&W)
- Help Jesus’ brothers (25:34-40, W)
- Be righteous/do right (25:46, F&W)
34. Accept the kingdom (Mark 10:15, F)
35. Believe the Gospel (Mark 16:16, F)
36. Receive baptism (Mark 16:16, W)
37. Be hated (Luke 6:22-23, W)
38. Lend (Luke 6:35, W)
39. Judge not (Luke 6:37, W)
40. Invite the poor to your party (Luke 14:13-14, W)
41. Use wealth wisely (Luke 16:9, W)
42. Stand firm (Luke 21:19, F)
From John
43. Be born again (3:3&6, F)
44. Come to the light (3:21, F)
45. Obey the Son (8:51 & 14:15, W)
46. Drink living water (4:14, F)
47. Heed Jesus (5:24, W)
48. Do right (5:29, W)
49. Work for the food of life (6:27, W)
50. Partake of the bread of life (6:33-35&51, F)
51. Eat the flesh and drink the blood of X (6:54, F)
52. Dwell within the truth (8:31&35, W)
53. Hate self; serve Jesus (12:25-26, W)
54. Accept Jesus’ words (12:47, F)
55. Follow Jesus’ example (13:15-17, W)
56. Dwell in Jesus and in love (15:5-10, F&W)
57. Heed his command (15:10-12, F)
58. Know God and Jesus Christ (17:3, F)
59. Believe Jesus is Christ/Son (20:31, F)
GRFS per Peter and Paul
From Acts
59. Call on the name of the Lord (Acts 2:21)
60. Repent and be baptized (Acts 2:38, cf. 3:19)
61. Believe in Jesus (Acts 10:43, cf. 13:39&48)
62. Believe in the Lord Jesus (Acts 16:31, cf. 18:8)
63. Repent and turn to God (Acts 26:20)
From Romans
64. Have faith (Rom. 1:17)
65. Persist in doing good (Rom. 2:7&10, cf. 3:12)
66. Obey the law (Rom. 2:13, cf. 3:20)
67. Have faith in Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:22, 26&28, 5:1)
68. Confess Jesus as resurrected Lord (Rom. 10:9)
69. Call on the name of the Lord (Rom. 10:13)
From 1 & 2 Corinthians
70. Believe (1Cor. 1:21)
71. Hold firmly to the gospel (1Cor. 15:2)
72. Repent (2Cor. 7:10)
73. Examine yourself (2Cor. 13:5)
74. Aim for perfection. (2Cor. 13:11)
From Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians
75. Do not pervert the Gospel (Gal. 1:6-7)
76. Know that we are justified by faith in JC (Gal. 2:16)
77. Through faith be baptized into Christ and clothed with Christ (Gal. 3:27)
78. Stand firm in Christ’s freedom (Gal. 5:1)
79. Do not trust in circumcision (Gal. 5:2-3)
80. Do not try to be justified by law (Gal. 5:4)
81. Live by the Spirit (Gal. 5:16)
82. Sow to please the Spirit (Gal. 6:8)
83. Hope in Christ (Eph. 1″12)
84. Believe/have faith in the Lord Jesus (Eph. 1:13-15)
85. Be saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8)
86. Put off your old sinful self (Eph. 4:22)
87. Be imitators of God (Eph. 5:1)
88. Strive for moral perfection (Eph. 5:3-7)
89. Live as children of light (Eph. 5:8)
90. Be wise by doing the Lord’s will (Eph. 5:15-17)
91. Put on the full armor of God (Eph. 6:11-13)
92. Stand firm for the faith of the Gospel (Phil. 1:27)
93. Continue to cooperate with God’s good purpose (Phil. 2:12-13)
94. Stand firm in the Lord (Phil. 4:1)
95. Have faith in the Gospel of JC (Col. 1:4-6&23)
96. Receive CJ as Lord (Col. 2:6)
97. Stop sinning and start loving (Col. 3:5-14)
From Thessalonians, Timothy & Titus
98. Have faith that produces good works (1Thes. 1:3&13)
99. Have faith and love that perseveres (1Thes. 3:5-10)
100. Put on faith, love and hope of salvation (1Thes. 5:8-9)
101. Persevere despite enduring persecution (2Thes. 1:3-5)
102. Believe on CJ who came to save sinners (1Tim. 1:15-16)
103. Do not pervert or abandon the true faith (1Tim. 4:1-3)
104. Do not quarrel or wander from the faith (1Tim. 6:3-5&20-21)
105. Have sincere faith that suffers for the Gospel (2Tim. 1:4-12)
106. Do not disown CJ (2Tim. 2:10-12)
107. Confess the name of the Lord and turn from sin (2Tim. 2:19)
108. Fight the good fight and finish the race of faith (2Tim. 4:7)
109. Have faith in the truth that gives hope of heaven (Tit. 1:2)
110. Teach the grace of God that offers salvation to all men (Tit. 2:11-15)
pisteuo & pistis mean to be persuaded by the truth of God's words and to place one's confidence in them. Being persuaded essentially justifies (for how can 2 walk togther except they be agreed together) and placing one's confidence in those words leads to behavior and action that aligns with the divine will, which in the end saves.
Defining faith in terms of type or quality, or believing the right way, appears gnostic to me
Defining faith in terms of type or quality, or believing the right way, appears gnostic to me
The "hermeneutical technique" is simply to let Scripture define and explain what the faith cognates mean - to let God define and explain what He means when He uses these words. And you're correct at least in my experience that it takes many passes through Scripture to do this type of work. I was once prompted to read through the NC and note in the margins every place I read of obedience in word or concept. It took some time and taught me a lot. It has taken this type of repeated "passes" through Scripture to learn about various topics in Scripture - basically the "hermeneutic technique" is simply doing continual and cumulative topical studies - even word studies. I know you're familiar with the discipline.
My dissatisfaction was in having asked for definitions (which require the just mentioned disciplines to learn) and receiving other than definition as definitions. "Anointed" translates "Christ" but does not define or explain what it means or signifies. As I just noted for you, when you said "Supreme Commander" in your point #4, you came the closest to defining "Christ" in the key point of what YHWH's Anointed" is telling us. But you never said that in your simple responses. It took 3 responses and having to read through one of your stored narratives in your last one to ultimately find this paraphrased explanation in the midst of a multitude of words.
My reluctance in doing what you seem to enjoy doing is based in dealing with these threads sufficiently to inform me that they're more about arguing than learning. Unlike you I have not formalized most of my decades of work and teaching and do not paste from stored work. I have files of studies, notes, teachings that are likely as extensive as yours but one of my practices at this point is to look at any Scripture afresh on on the fly in the original language and current translations any time there might be a relatively pointed discussion about it.
With that said, your point now seems to be that you can pull from your files an extensive list of Scriptures and points you say reflect faith and works. Thank you for the list. I'm not in doubt that you can pull from your stored work. Glancing through it, some note "F", some "W", some both, many none. In this quick glance through, at least one that always catches my even glancing eye registered as erroneous IMO.
Why don't you pull out one or a few and tell me why you think it is or they are part of what defines pistis? Or, given that you've noted my reluctance, then extract one or two for me that you think help define genuine pistis and I'll explain if and why I agree or disagree with you. Point being, I think you've provided the proverbial non-analyzed laundry list of verses that now has to be analyzed to see if contains in whole or in part what defines and explains pistis.
You are absolutely right.
Amen! Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:22-26) No supplements needed.
Since I still fail to satisfy, wouldn't it be simpler and quicker at this point for you to tell me what you think the definition of pistis is per Scripture and let me see if I agree? And also pull one or two from the list I posted and tell me why you think it does NOT define pistis?
Thanks!
Instead of handing me a 109-item laundry list, please pick one or two verses from your own list and explain why you think they define pistis. I’ll then respond on whether I agree. That’s all that’s needed - no need to shift the burden to me. I asked you about #45. Would you like to begin by explaining that one?
I am quoting Jesus saying: "If a man keeps my word, he will never see death" and "If you love me, you will obey what I command."
I compiled the list many years ago, and I notice that item is out of place. It should be located after "Dwell with the truth."
I also notice that it is comparable to "Heed his command", which I viewed as Faith, because his command is "Love each other".
And in #2,578 I said "I would suggest that faith and love are almost synonymous: to believe in Christ = to love him".
Finally, I notice that I labelled "Dwell in Jesus and in love" as F&W per John 6:29, understanding "in Jesus" in terms of Eph. 1:3-15.
Thus, I conclude that "love" is both F&W: There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and love that accepts God’s working grace or motivates good works while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (Rom. 1:17). IOW, the ability to do loving/good works as well as have saving faith/love are both due to God’s grace.
Good catch! I will amend the website.
Understood. I noted the connection
Thanks for the explanation.
As I recall, I've seen you compare obedience with faith. And I did note your comment "that faith and love are almost synonymous" which i reserved for discussion if it progressed.
As I understand you, we are in basic agreement on these 2 points. I have struggled a bit with using "almost synonymous" type language. At this time I have worked through this fairly extensively seeking better terminology from grammar and logic.
Grammatically I can classify actual wording in the Text as being "appositional". Apposition is a grammatical term that describes a relationship between two elements, usually nouns or noun phrases, where one identifies, explains, or clarifies the other. Both elements refer to the same thing, but the second adds detail, clarification, or another label.
In formal logic or symbolic reasoning, apposition is usually expressed as functional equivalence or identity of reference rather than a syntactic label. The idea is that two terms refer to the same entity or concept.
If we take language such as Paul's bookending "obedience [of] faith" in Rom1:5 & Rom16:26 categorizing the genitive glossed translation "[of]" as apposition then obedience is identifying, explaining, clarifying "pistis" and logically obedience is functionally equivalent to pistis. "Synonym" is more of a strict identity than apposition - more of an equals than equivalence.
This is why I was struggling with referring to faith and obedience as synonymous. But they are clearly appositional and functionally equivalent. This is why we see Paul using them appositionally in Rom10:16 and Hebrews is doing the same in Heb3:18-19. There is more evidence but this should suffice for now.
When you and I attach obedience to love using Scriptures, we're encountering the same grammatical & logical structures.
And once we see those connections there's warrant to say pistis is functionally equivalent to obedience and obedience is functionally equivalent to love and therefore pistis is functionally equivalent to love. If I use a standard keyboard "~=" to express functional equivalence, then we have pistis ~= obedience ~= love.
What we must realize in doing this is that we are saying obedience and love are both intrinsic to pistis - both are part of its nature.
When we do this we are using the Text to define what God means when He uses [genuine] pistis (1Tim1:5; 2Tim1:5).
This same work through Scripture - those focused "passes" you spoke of - will reveal that there are many words used and commanded in apposition to pistis - many words that have functional equivalence with pistis - and thereby show us what God means when He speaks of believing in Jesus Christ - faith of and in Jesus Christ.
Pistis has way more appositional facets intrinsic to its meaning than its stripped-down version in some soteriological traditions.
I appreciate being reminded of the term for "and" meaning "=" or being appositional rather than additional, which is a common usage in Scripture. "Functionally equivalent" is also applicable terminology. The "many words" used to define pistis are the "many passes" we mentioned.
It appears that you are happy now?
However, I am thinking that I might need to amend the TOP such as:
TOP #26: Abraham (a former Gentile) is the spiritual father of all who have faith in God and Jesus. [Rom. 4:1-25] Those who are forgiven are credited as sharing the innocence/righteousness of Christ by God (Rom. 4:3-11). Some call this “imputed” righteousness.
TOP #27: Those who have been justified via faith in God and the Lord Jesus Christ (LJC) receive the Holy Spirit in their hearts (HS). [Rom. 5:1-5] This echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God. Verses 2 & 5 also echo Eph. 2:18 & 3:1 by describing s/e as having access to God’s grace via the Holy Spirit.
to read:
TOP #26: Abraham (a former Gentile) is the spiritual father of all who have faith in God and Jesus. [Rom. 4:1-25] Those who are forgiven are credited as sharing the innocence/righteousness of Christ by God (Rom. 4:3-11). Some call this “imputed” righteousness. Other passages of Scripture indicate that faith in God is functionally equivalent to reflecting God's love for sinners (John 15:9-12, 1John 3:23-24, 4:19, John 14:15, 23 & 15:9-12).
TOP #27: Those who have been justified via faith in God and the Lord Jesus Christ (LJC) receive God's loving Holy Spirit in their hearts (HS). [Rom. 5:1-5] This echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God. Verses 2 & 5 also echo Eph. 2:18 & 3:1 by describing s/e as having access to God’s grace and love via the Holy Spirit (cf. TOP #26).
t appears that you are happy now?
only 1/109 happy. then again, 109 is likely much more than the number of appositional facets of pistis, so better than 1/109. I might get some semblance of exegetical theological discussions happy if/when TULIP & overblown works salvation get put to rest. Having checked out of the former was helpful. Increase likely means paying less attention to CC and going back to discussing His Word with Him and filling those digital and mental files you know well of for the waning years.
Obeying the voice of God isn't quid pro quo. Salvation simply won"t happen if those justified don't do what God says
Well, I will take "only" as meaning "happier", so we are making progress, and any further "catches" for the website are welcome.
Justification doesn't even happen if those unjustified don't do what God commands - Believe!
We've lost touch with basic reality with all this works fear mongering.
"we"?
I consider your catch as progress in improving my understanding of GW, but I guess you don't?