Saved by faith alone?

[studier]

Re "James says faith without works is dead": Notice that faith is mentioned first, which is why I now say we are saved by faith first,
rather than by faith alone. horse > cart

I guess you'd have to elaborate your meaning and the basis of it.

">" in "horse > cart" is one of a few symbolic relationships that can be applied to pistis & works. But it is more than that.

 

[mailmandan]

I disagree with your version of the essence of pistis. My focus is on what the Text actually says: faith that is alive inherently has works and obedience, endurance, and other essential qualities as part of its very nature. The simplicity for me is letting God define what is and is not merit-worthy works, rather than altering the definition of genuine pistis to fit an interpretive system.

So, you are one of those people who insert your own personal definition of non-meritorious works to salvation through faith? God did define what faith is in Hebrews 11:1 but you seem determined to "add" your works. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically defined faith "as" obedience/works which is so telling, based on what you keep saying about works being inherent in faith.

 

[Magenta]

No, it's my goto label when people express Calvinist ideology. Protestant culture is so imbued with the Calvinist way of thinking that many don't realize where their ideas come from.

You push a false ideology when you claim such things because you deny that Jesus and Paul both taught on man's inherent inability.

 

[studier]

What I see and hear revolves around reading scripture in context and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. That has been my training. Folks who are thoroughly indoctrinated into their biased church doctrine see and hear filtered through training and preconceptions.

Objectively, and without intending to be offensive, would you like me to identify at least five fallacious arguments in your statement? Do you think there is any tradition that doesn’t see itself as reading Scripture “correctly”? Consider Calvinists, Roman Catholic scholars, or any other tradition or viewpoint - each would likely say the same about their own interpretive training or reading.

 

[studier]

So, you are one of those people who insert your own personal definition of non-meritorious works to salvation through faith? God did define what faith is in Hebrews 11:1 but you seem determined to "add" your works. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically defined faith "as" obedience/works which is so telling, based on what you keep saying about works being inherent in faith.

Honestly, after noting several posts ago when you moved heavily into fallacies, including personal attacks, it seems you’ve stayed mired in process - which is not unusual. You’re also repeating points as if we’ve had no discussion. If we focused on translating and analyzing the language in James 2:17 or Hebrews 11:1, could we have a constructive discussion? Forgive my directness, but I’ve seen no evidence of that yet.

 

[mailmandan]

Honestly, after noting several posts ago when you moved heavily into fallacies, including personal attacks, it seems you’ve stayed mired in process - which is not unusual. You’re also repeating points as if we’ve had no discussion. If we focused on translating and analyzing the language in James 2:17 or Hebrews 11:1, could we have a constructive discussion? Forgive my directness, but I’ve seen no evidence of that yet.

I don't like your smug attitude and we will not end up having a constructive discussion because we simply disagree. Period.

 

[studier]

I don't like your smug attitude and we will not end up having a constructive discussion because we simply disagree. Period.

“Smug” is personal attack, again, and it first appeared after I began pointing out how you had entered into that methodology. It’s a shame this is where things land when we try to translate and interpret specific Scripture.

 

[mailmandan]

“Smug” is personal attack, again, and it first appeared after I began pointing out how you had entered into that methodology. It’s a shame this is where things land when we try to translate and interpret specific Scripture.

You just proved my point. Hey, if the shoe fits. You and I do not agree and we will not come to an agreement so it's time to move on.

 

[studier]

Protect the system -> Launch ad hom -> Declare conversation over.

Gotta love theological discussions…

 

[GWH]

I guess you'd have to elaborate your meaning and the basis of it.

">" in "horse > cart" is one of a few symbolic relationships that can be applied to pistis & works. But it is more than that.

Yes, and the need for elaboration of faith is my point (since Ephesians 2:8 does not say we are saved by works, not faith).
I elaborate faith using 5 points, which I post all over the place but mainly in the Kerygma thread/Christian Creed lesson,
and here it is again:

Saving faith in Jesus as Messiah and Lord implies:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or Creator God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s grace or justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), at which moment God’s loving Holy Spirit of Christ indwells/baptizes the believer into the church (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5, 1Cor. 12:13).
5. Loving Christ Jesus as Lord (Luke 2:11), God the Son (Matt. 16:16) or God in the human dimension (Col. 2:9) means reflecting divine love as empowered by the Holy Spirit, thereby obeying His command to love one another (Matt. 7:21, 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2), which will eventually achieve spiritual maturity on earth and heaven after Christ returns at God’s resurrection (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Phil. 3:12-16, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).

 

[mailmandan]

Brother, not quite — faith isn’t made real by performance; it’s revealed as real by endurance.

Just as fire doesn’t create gold but proves its purity, trials don’t create saving faith — they expose whether faith is genuine. Peter’s analogy makes this clear:
“The trial of your faith… though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory.” (1 Peter 1:7)
The fire didn’t make the gold gold — it showed what was already there.

Faith is “the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8), rooted in Christ’s finished work, not in our performance. Yet living faith naturally shows itself in trust and obedience, even under pressure — whereas empty profession collapses when tested (Matthew 13:20-21).

So the point isn’t that faith becomes real through trials, but that trials reveal what kind of faith we already have — living or lifeless.

Grace and peace, brother — may our faith be proven genuine, not by our strength, but by the steadfast grace of the One who sustains it.

Amen brother! Well said.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Not sure why you said that you worked righteousness from your own will, when it was because God's Word/Spirit taught you.
Since when is cooperating with God working righteousness from your own will? That is exactly what God wants us to do!

Because I chose to do so, ie I willed to align my actions with his will

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

There's no such thing as genuine or fake faith. Faith is faith. There are those whose faith endures because they love God more than the world, and there are those whose faith does not endure because they love the world more than God. Theirs is a hypocritical faith (a profession of faith towards God, but doesn't do what he says) and is what Paul calls believing in vain.

 

[mailmandan]

That’s a fair question — and to be clear, I’m not suggesting anyone here is consciously adding works to gain salvation.

My point is simply that Scripture makes a careful distinction between the root and the fruit of salvation. Works don’t contribute to being saved — they confirm that salvation has truly taken place.

Paul says,
“By grace are ye saved through faith… not of works.” (Ephesians 2:8–9)
and then immediately adds,
“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works.” (Ephesians 2:10)

In other words, genuine faith always produces obedience — not as a condition for salvation, but as the natural outcome of it.

So when I emphasize that faith without works is dead, I’m not accusing anyone of adding works — I’m simply agreeing with James that a living faith inevitably shows itself in action, because Christ lives within it.

Grace and peace, brother.

Amen! It's really nice to see that other people on Christian Chat get this.

 

[GWH]

Because I chose to do so, ie I willed to align my actions with his will

But God WANTS you to choose to do so, willingly and happily!

 

[GWH]

There's no such thing as genuine or fake faith. Faith is faith. There are those whose faith endures because they love God more than the world, and there are those whose faith does not endure because they love the world more than God. Theirs is a hypocritical faith (a profession of faith towards God, but doesn't do what he says) and is what Paul calls believing in vain.

Untrue! Atheists also walk by faith, although they claim to have disproof of God's existence,
which I was tempted to believe when I was a teenager, but then I realized it was a lie.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Untrue! Atheists also walk by faith, although they claim to have disproof of God's existence,
which I was tempted to believe when I was a teenager, but then I realized it was a lie.

I meant faith in Christ, not faith in general

 

[GWH]

I meant faith in Christ, not faith in general

Okay, that's better, but now I would suggest that faith and love are almost synonymous: to believe in Christ = to love him--
and I see no good reason to deny that such faith/love can be genuine or fake and can endure or not (per 2Cor. 11:13, Matt. 10:22).

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Okay, that's better, but now I would suggest that faith and love are almost synonymous: to believe in Christ = to love him--
and I see no good reason to deny that such faith/love can be genuine or fake and can endure or not (per 2Cor. 11:13, Matt. 10:22).

If by fake faith/love you mean hypocritcal faith/love (ie, pretend love; why do you call me lord, but don't do what I say?) that takes the lord's name to itself in vain, then I would agree with you. The reason it is fake is not because of some quality about faith or love themselves, but about the depth of faith and love in the person. And the object of their faith and love. Which do they love and believe more? The lord or the world? The truth or the lie?

 

[GWH]

If by fake faith/love you mean hypocritcal faith/love (ie, pretend love; why do you call me lord, but don't do what I say?) that takes the lord's name to itself in vain, then I would agree with you. The reason it is fake is not because of some quality about faith or love themselves, but about the depth of faith and love in the person. And the object of their faith and love. Which do they love and believe more? The lord or the world? The truth or the lie?

I agree that fake faith/love is due to hypocrisy or lying.
I had never thought about it that way, (connecting Matt. 7:21-23 with 2Cor. 11:13) so thanks for the insight.