Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

Growing more palatial by the moment.

Oh.....I don't think that there are too many palaces and posh estates where you live out there in Loserville little buddy. Mostly impoverished shacks and shanties by the railroad tracks is my guess.

 

[Cameron143]

Oh.....I don't think that there are too many palaces and posh estates where you live out there in Loserville little buddy. Mostly impoverished shacks and shanties by the railroad tracks is my guess.

I have a mansion awaiting. What do I care about earthly things?

 

[sawdust]

Mr. Genez, sir, (and by extension all other FWers are welcomed to jump in) your favorite "gangsta" iggy persona is here with a huge theological question for you re your recent comments about God's grace and how it's is often associated with divine power -- a view that I'm in agreement with, along with additional definitions of "grace" as well. But first let's look at a passage that forms the basis to this big, important question.

Eph 1:15-23
15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
ESV

According to this passage, the grace/power that God has bestowed upon Christ's Body (elect) is the very same power that God exerted upon the the Body's Head when God raised Him up from his tomb. To any critical thinker here the problem that FWT and its categorical rejection of the Doctrine of Irresistible Grace would soon become very obvious. If the Head really did physically rise up from the dead by the very same power that God exerts on behalf His Body, then how is it possible that there's no efficacy in that grace/power for the Body of Christ? FWers unwittingly commit intellectual and theological hari-kari when they deny the efficacy of God's grace! For if His grace/power is not the ultimate determinant for salvation for the Body due to lack of efficacy, then Jesus could not have been raised from the dead by that very same power! By FWers denying the efficacy of God's saving power to His saints, they tacitly deny the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead! And can any denier of Christ's resurrection be saved!?

So...Mr. Genez, and all you other FWers, here's your Mission Impossible if you dare accept it: Get busy to find a creative way out of this logical and theological dilemma. Put your sweat shirts and pants and workout vigorously so that you can perform great feats of mental gymnastics.

ROFL

His Church is full of believers. We have stated time and again God promises to save believers. Should we be surprised God's grace is indeed efficacious upon believers? I think not.

 

[cv5]

I have a mansion awaiting. What do I care about earthly things?

Ok. Enjoy your mulligan stew while you are here little buddy.

A Bible study feast awaits me daily. No charge and no tip either. It's FREELY given.

 

[Cameron143]

Ok. Enjoy your mulligan stew while you are here little buddy.

A Bible study feast awaits me daily. No charge and no tip either. It's FREELY given.

A little stew that is digested is far superior to filet mignon that never gets eaten. Learn to make use of food better and you might actually become what God envisioned for his new creation. Who knows? One day you might even be able to consider others better than yourself.

 

[Rufus]

You have got a label-fetish.

You freely choose to believe what you do, don't you?

Ahh...I forgot. You're so above the label fray, aren't you? I bet you could easily live, function and survive in a world wherein nothing had labels, right?

 

[Magenta]

I have a mansion awaiting. What do I care about earthly things?

John 14 v 1-3 Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.

 

[Rufus]

ROFL

His Church is full of believers. We have stated time and again God promises to save believers. Should we be surprised God's grace is indeed efficacious upon believers? I think not.

But being raised from the dead is how the elect become believers! In fact, the elect being in Christ (the elect's Federal Head) before the world began is how God bestows grace on the humble, since He was the paragon of humility.

 

[Genez]

Ahh...I forgot. You're so above the label fray, aren't you? I bet you could easily live, function and survive in a world wherein nothing had labels, right?

No.... It is when a label triggers bigotry and instant judging, then it becomes a problem.

You label.
Throw them into a box.
And, never deal with the person, but only with the image you have to lock them into.

You always win the argument that way (in your own mind).

 

[BillyBob]

Oh.....I don't think that there are too many palaces and posh estates where you live out there in Loserville little buddy. Mostly impoverished shacks and shanties by the railroad tracks is my guess.

Hey little buddy! Is this what you have learned through Chronister's teaching? Too bad, so sad. . . . . .

 

[BillyBob]

Ok. Enjoy your mulligan stew while you are here little buddy.

A Bible study feast awaits me daily. No charge and no tip either. It's FREELY given.

More learning from Chronister's teaching. No wonder it's free!

 

[Doll]

nope ... not adding to the text ... just because I do not believe Adam was with Eve when the serpent deceived Eve, that does not mean I am adding to the text.





Look at who is conversing:

3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.

5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it ...


... she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.


There is no indication in the record the Adam was with Eve when satan and Eve were conversing. Look at the bolded text ... the serpent spoke to Eve ... Eve spoke to the serpent.

I do not believe Adam was there. I do not believe Adam would have remained silent during the discussion. I believe Adam would have said something or done something to keep Eve from eating if Adam had been present.





If a son has only one parent (whether father or mother) ... does that negate the command?

The Lord Jesus Christ confirmed the command (Matt 19:5; Mark 10:7).

Paul confirmed the command (Eph 5:31).





Were they "one flesh" after Eve ate? Eve died the moment she ate. Adam ate and became one flesh with her after she had eaten.





sure it is ... if you would give serious consideration rather than rejecting out of hand, it just might become apparent that they were no longer "one flesh" after Eve had eaten.

When Adam ate the fruit, he chose to remain united with Eve rather than separate from her due to her transgression.





Because Adam ate of the tree which God commanded him not to eat after he "hearkened unto the voice of his wife".

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life





We do not know if Eve brought the fruit to Adam or if Adam found Eve after she had eaten.

All we know is that Adam hearkened unto the voice of his wife and ate the fruit she gave him.





why would you assume that Adam did not know the fruit was from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Scripture is clear that Adam was not deceived (1 Tim 2:14) ... and that Adam ate the fruit (Gen 3:6).





right ... Adam joined Eve after she ate ... or Eve joined Adam after she ate.

Bottomline ... when Eve gave the fruit to Adam, they were together. That does not mean Adam was there when the serpent beguiled Eve.
.

Yes it does. The Bible tells us he was.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Neither is there any "indication in the text" that Adam showed up on the scene only after Eve was tempted. You're reading that into the text.

I say you're the one reading into the text when you claim Adam was there while Eve and satan discussed eating the fruit. The whole conversation was between satan and Eve. The record does not state satan spoke to "them" because Adam was not there while Eve and satan conversed.

Genesis 3:1-6

1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat

Once Eve showed satan she did not know God's Word, he knew he had her.

Here's what you want me to believe ... that Adam was there the whole time ... listened to the discussion ... and never opened his mouth to correct Eve's misinterpretation of God's Word ... then he watched Eve eat in direct disobedience to God's command without saying a word or reaching out to stop her ... then he ate ... not because he was deceived, but because he chose to remain united with Eve rather than be separated from her due to her transgression.

But the natural reading is that Adam was with Eve when the serpent approached her.

nope ... the natural reading is that Adam was with Eve when she gave the fruit to him ... not when Eve and satan were having their discussion.

Whoever added chapters and verses to the scrolls should have ended vs 6 with "she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat". then next verse would be that she gave to her husband.

Have you ever looked at that aspect of Scripture, Rufus (the chapter/verse additions)? Very first chapter of Scripture should have ended at Gen 2:3 instead of Gen 1:31. That's something we need to keep in mind when reading Scripture. Just because someone added chapters and verses, we don't just turn off our brains so that we misunderstand what God wants us to know ... just sayin' ...
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

All it took was for God to clothe them with the skins of slain animals. No faith, no repentance, no confession of sins necessary.

Both Adam and Eve confessed their sins.

Both Adam and Eve believed God when He proclaimed the coming Messiah (Gen 3:15). Adam believed and Adam knew Eve believed and he changed her name from ishshâh (wife) to ḥaûâ ("life" or "living").

Then comes Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

without shedding of blood is no remission ... sacrifice made ... shame covered ... Do you believe the offering God made was lacking?

According to FWers, God clearly saved A&E on an entirely different basis than He did at the Cross of Christ. In the first case, God's atoning provision of animal skins was 100% efficacious with no conditions placed on A&E, while in the second the Christ's atoning work is 0% efficacious since man must obey the conditions of the gospel BEFORE Christ's work actually can save them.

Adam and Eve repented of their sin ... Gen 3:20 is indicative that both Adam and Eve believed the Gen 3:15 promise concerning the coming Messiah Who would crush the head of the serpent.

salvation has always been ... is now ... always will be ... by grace through faith.
.

 

[Mem]

Instead of listening to and heeding the voice of God's prophetic warning (Gen 2:16-17). And not a thing has changed down through the ages, has it? We have thoroughly self-deceived FWers here who constantly read their presuppositions into passages and swear this is what God has said!

You've characterized God's wisdom as an example prophecy in Gen 2:16. However, you wouldn't call it prophecy if I advised that, "if you took a long walk off a short pier, then you will surely be wet' as a prophecy. So, I'm missing the point you are trying to make there.

 

[cv5]

I say you're the one reading into the text when you claim Adam was there while Eve and satan discussed eating the fruit. The whole conversation was between satan and Eve. The record does not state satan spoke to "them" because Adam was not there while Eve and satan conversed.

Genesis 3:1-6

1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat

Once Eve showed satan she did not know God's Word, he knew he had her.

Here's what you want me to believe ... that Adam was there the whole time ... listened to the discussion ... and never opened his mouth to correct Eve's misinterpretation of God's Word ... then he watched Eve eat in direct disobedience to God's command without saying a word or reaching out to stop her ... then he ate ... not because he was deceived, but because he chose to remain united with Eve rather than be separated from her due to her transgression.





nope ... the natural reading is that Adam was with Eve when she gave the fruit to him ... not when Eve and satan were having their discussion.

Whoever added chapters and verses to the scrolls should have ended vs 6 with "she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat". then next verse would be that she gave to her husband.

Have you ever looked at that aspect of Scripture, Rufus (the chapter/verse additions)? Very first chapter of Scripture should have ended at Gen 2:3 instead of Gen 1:31. That's something we need to keep in mind when reading Scripture. Just because someone added chapters and verses, we don't just turn off our brains so that we misunderstand what God wants us to know ... just sayin' ...
.

The only question I have is whether @Rufus is 100% wrong all of the time on purpose........or by accident, injury or ignorance.

 

[Doll]

So then is this prayer was made as he anticipated his death inside the fish?
That would make sense to me, him dying but then God bringing him back to life.

Jonah 2:1-9

I think if Jonah did not die in the belly of the great fish this congruency would not appear in scripture.

“For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” Matthew 12:40

Jesus died on the cross and was buried for three days. We know this to be true.

If Jonah was not dead in the belly of the great fish,and as you rightly observe, he would not have offered up that prayer.

Also,if Jonah wasn't dead,then the Matthew 12:40 doesn't make sense.
Because if Jonah wasn't dead those three days,Jesus wasn't either.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Good post! Pride is at the root of every sin! Pride is what caused Lucifer to fall, and it's what caused Adam to fall. What both Satan and Adam wanted was to be just like God...if indeed not better!

Actually, it was Eve who succumbed to the carrot [pride] held out by satan:

Genesis 3:5-6

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The only question I have is whether Rufus is 100% wrong all of the time on purpose........or by accident, injury or ignorance.

no idea ... scratchin' my head over his claim that "Adam wanted to be just like God" when the record clearly states it was Eve who saw that the tree was one to make one wise after satan told her about being "as god".
.

 

[cv5]

Hey little buddy! Is this what you have learned through Chronister's teaching? Too bad, so sad. . . . . .

Please realize that my comments Re: @Cameron143 's living status and diet are metaphorical and idiomatic and nature. In terms of biblical literacy, understanding and sound doctrine, he appears to be a homeless beggar.

In worldly terms, he might have a mansion and a yacht who knows.