Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Jordon]

God's will is oftentimes conflicts with mans will. But this does not mean that men do not have a will of their own, on the contrary it confirms that they do!

It only mans thought process that has a will of it's own, because it suffered a terrible loss of innocence.

But Yep the only thing that's free about it is the side of its ruthlessness without it's innocence

 

[cv5]

It only mans thought process that has a will of it's own, because it suffered a terrible loss of innocence.

But Yep the only thing that's free about it is the side of its ruthlessness without it's innocence

Well, I do not suffer too badly from a condemning attitude toward all men. That's more of a hard-core Reformed affliction.

I mean just listen to them. It's horrible to hear the endless fusillade of shrill diatribes really.

 

[Rufus]

The slaying of the animal with which Adam and Eve were clothed is a foreshadowing of the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The gospel preached to Adam and Eve was proclaimed in Gen 3:15.

Both Adam and Eve believed what God told them about the promised Messiah ... that is why Adam changed her name from ʼishshâh (wife) to ḥaûâ ("life" or "living").

Salvation always was, is now, will always be, by grace through faith.
.

The biblical fact is that God's decree in Gen 3:15 is directed only to the Serpent. A&E at that point in time were just "eavesdroppers", as it were. But both of them certainly understood the profound spiritual implications to God's decree. Eve eventually responded in "faith" (as evidenced by her twin acknowledgements of God) subsequent to and because of the decree! God's will in heaven was done on earth by Eve! A display of Compatibilism at its finest! Adam, on the other hand, demonstrated no piety, no faith, no repentance, no confession of sin but continued to conceal his sin (Job 31:33).

 

[Rufus]

It could easily be argued that in his heart of hearts, Paul desired to serve God. But alas, he was
deceived (as is the majority of the world), blinded to the truth and in need of intervention..

So interesting how we have a FW perspective telling us God would be unfair if He revealed
Himself to one person an any way that differed in how He reveals Himself to another person.
Such deception parading itself as qualified to teach rather boggles the mind.

Yeah...it appears God was quite determined to save Paul in spite of himself! Of course, FWers will tell us that God's supernatural and existential revelation to Paul was a special case since Paul was called to a special assignment -- even though all of God's saints are called to serve Him faithfully.

 

[Jordon]

It could easily be argued that in his heart of hearts, Paul desired to serve God. But alas, he was
deceived (as is the majority of the world), blinded to the truth and in need of intervention..

So interesting how we have a FW perspective telling us God would be unfair if He revealed
Himself to one person an any way that differed in how He reveals Himself to another person.
Such deception parading itself as qualified to teach rather boggles the mind.

people are like sheep in many ways lol, in some ways they follow for the right reasons and in others they don't and even not fully trusting what there doing is right, the blind leading the blind. My mum would say.

It's like revalatiion you know something but you can't say something, as it may take away there happiness.

Its like rainbows, of promises and love, you can end up not telling someone something to keep a promise.

Who knows why God chose Paul really, my guess is because God knew he was going to be saved,

Same for Moses, both of them killed maybe with not with total hate, but still the lord chose them .
Why Should these things happen to them and not us, is what would cross a persons mind, should it be, and the same people then tell you your no different.

They say it Like you think your so perfect or something when they word there language. Well it's obviously to me they haven't fully grasped his will yet. And maybe there in rebellion.

They see that one person being saved as someone completely not worthy as something they can use to justify there own grievance with God, as they will all have one as they will all have a prick in there conscience

 

[Magenta]

people are like sheep in many ways lol, in some ways they follow for the right reasons and in others they don't and even not fully trusting what there doing is right, the blind leading the blind. My mum would say.

It's like revalatiion you know something but you can't say something, as it may take away there happiness.

Its like rainbows, of promises and love, you can end up not telling someone something to keep a promise.

Who knows why God chose Paul really, my guess is because God knew he was going to be saved,

Same for Moses, both of them killed maybe with not with total hate, but still the lord chose them .
Why Should these things happen to them and not us, is what would cross a persons mind, should it be, and the same people then tell you your no different.

They say it Like you think your so perfect or something when they word there language. Well it's obviously to me they haven't fully grasped his will yet. And maybe there in rebellion.

They see that one person being saved as someone completely not worthy as something they can use to justify there own grievance with God, as they will all have one as they will all have a prick in there conscience

Romans 8 verse 28 ~ We know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It could easily be argued that in his heart of hearts, Paul desired to serve God. But alas, he was
deceived (as is the majority of the world), blinded to the truth and in need of intervention..

Paul claimed he was a blasphemer and a persecutor and that he obtained mercy because he did it ignorantly in unbelief.

but you know what else? Just as some folks have done some terrible stuff prior to being born again ... Paul had the memories of what he had done ... things he considered both good and bad that he had to forget in his pursuit of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus ...

Philippians 3:4-14

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus


All the things we think are so great about ourselves ... all the things we have done in the past which were so devastating ... gotta let them go in the continuous pursuit of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Some folks are satisfied with just getting in the door ... just get born again and everything will be okay cuz I'm going to heaven ... so they remain in spiritual infancy ... no maturing spiritually ... they settle for low hanging fruit.

But that is not where the fullness of the fellowship with the Father and the Son is found ... keep reading ... keep searching ... keep digging ... for that hidden manna ... the Bread of Life ... we will never come to the end of all the treasure to be found in the Lord Jesus Christ ... there's always more of Him to find and it is such a delight to uncover a truth about Him ... God revealing the Son ... the Son revealing the Father ... keep digging.
.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 8 verse 29-30; Ephesians 1 verse 5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.

 

[Rufus]

if he had been blaming God for causing him to sin - - which is the most idiotic interpretation possible but somehow in the idiot visible church by far the most prolific - - why did God accept his words, not curse him, give him the promise of the Messiah, shed the blood of an innocent, spotless lamb, take away his filthy robe, clothe him with a garment made by the very hand of God Himself, and declare to all the angels BEHOLD he has become like Christ?


next time you sin try accepting no responsibility, telling God it's His fault, and see whether you get that kind of treatment.

God did "curse" Adam by driving THE MAN out of God's glorious temple, i.e. the Garden. He drove Adam out from his Holy Presence!

Secondly, God did not promise Adam a Messiah. Ask these basic hermeneutical questions about Gen 3:15: To WHOM was God speaking in the verse? To WHOM was His decree directed? Did God even mention Adam in the text?

Thirdly, a half truth,such as God's provision, never = the whole truth. FWers believe Christ died for the sin of all mankind w/o exception, yet is all mankind saved? Does all mankind w/o exception respond in faith and repentance to Christ's atoning work? Then why would you assume both A&E responded positively to God's provision?"

And I surely would like chapter and verse about the so called declaration of God that he made about Adam "to all the angels".

 

[Rufus]

Paul claimed he was a blasphemer and a persecutor and that he obtained mercy because he did it ignorantly in unbelief.

but you know what else? Just as some folks have done some terrible stuff prior to being born again ... Paul had the memories of what he had done ... things he considered both good and bad that he had to forget in his pursuit of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus ...

Philippians 3:4-14

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus


All the things we think are so great about ourselves ... all the things we have done in the past which were so devastating ... gotta let them go in the continuous pursuit of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Some folks are satisfied with just getting in the door ... just get born again and everything will be okay cuz I'm going to heaven ... so they remain in spiritual infancy ... no maturing spiritually ... they settle for low hanging fruit.

But that is not where the fullness of the fellowship with the Father and the Son is found ... keep reading ... keep searching ... keep digging ... for that hidden manna ... the Bread of Life ... we will never come to the end of all the treasure to be found in the Lord Jesus Christ ... there's always more of Him to find and it is such a delight to uncover a truth about Him ... God revealing the Son ... the Son revealing the Father ... keep digging.
.

Such folks clearly don't have a true understanding of the gospel! People who have that kind of attitude you describe most likely are false believers. Anyone who thinks the gospel is only about God saving sinners from the penalty of sin and not from the power of sin in this age is utterly deceived!

 

[Jordon]

Romans 8 verse 28 ~ We know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.

yep That's true it maybe Paul loved God as a Jew x

But you know how much belief a Jew can have, I mean God really did have to Go against his will.

 

[cv5]

Yeah...it appears God was quite determined to save Paul in spite of himself! Of course, FWers will tell us that God's supernatural and existential revelation to Paul was a special case since Paul was called to a special assignment -- even though all of God's saints are called to serve Him faithfully.

Paul could have refused the call/commission on the spot. But, Paul willed to do his will.

And Paul could have "dropped out" at any time during his ministry. But, Paul "held on" to the end of his commission. Similar to Jacob who likewise "held on" despite all the trials and temptations.

Both became heroes of FAITH.

 

[posthuman]

So you could say God went against Paul's will then

yes i think it's very clear that we have will, and that God has will, and God sometimes completely overthrows our will in order 5o accomplish His

 

[Magenta]

yes i think it's very clear that we have will, and that God has will, and God sometimes completely overthrows our will in order 5o accomplish His

It is also very clear that certain FWers would rather blaspheme God than admit this truth...

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Adam, on the other hand, demonstrated no piety, no faith, no repentance, no confession of sin but continued to conceal his sin (Job 31:33).

The sacrifice was sufficient for them both ... both believed ... both were clothed.

As far as Job's statement ... was Job speaking specifically of Adam? ... or was Job referring to mankind in general ?

Here is the Hebrew word for "man" (from Gen 2:18) – הָאָדָםאָדָם'āḏām
Here is the Hebrew word for "Adam" (from Gen 2:19) – הָאָדָםאָדָם'āḏām

New International Version
if I have concealed my sin as people do, by hiding my guilt in my heart

New Living Translation
“Have I tried to hide my sins like other people do, concealing my guilt in my heart?

English Standard Version
if I have concealed my transgressions as others do by hiding my iniquity in my heart

King James Bible
If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom

New King James Version
If I have covered my transgressions as Adam, By hiding my iniquity in my bosom

New American Standard Bible
“Have I covered my wrongdoings like a man, By hiding my guilt in my shirt pocket

English Revised Version
If like Adam I covered my transgressions, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom

International Standard Version
"Have I covered my transgression like other people, to conceal iniquity within myself?

NET Bible
if I have covered my transgressions as men do, by hiding iniquity in my heart
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yeah...it appears God was quite determined to save Paul in spite of himself! Of course, FWers will tell us that God's supernatural and existential revelation to Paul was a special case since Paul was called to a special assignment

cmon Rufus ... you do not see anything unique in the record? All other records in Acts reveal that someone preached and someone believed. So, yes, this record of Paul's conversion was "special".

-- even though all of God's saints are called to serve Him faithfully.

in agreement.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Who knows why God chose Paul really, my guess is because God knew he was going to be saved

God tells us ...

Acts 9:13-16 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
.

 

[posthuman]

I mean just listen to them. It's horrible to hear the endless fusillade of shrill diatribes really.

it can be heartbreaking, and cause one to become callous

 

[Jordon]

It is also very clear that certain FWers would rather blaspheme God than admit this truth...

I'll go with that, I was wondering about you lol having to say terrible things, I have to sometimes to

I think it's stems from a distant memory where in order to win the crowd I had to become one,

 

[Jordon]

God tells us ...

Acts 9:13-16 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
.

Yep I remembered that shortly afterwards, God chose him to be a donkey if I remember because he liked something about him that reminded him of donkeys.