Israel.

[brightfame52]

So the land promise is fulfilled in your opinion or not?

​

If Abraham was here today he would disagree with you about the land over there in palestine, he wasn't looking for that land at all, but heaven, this Matt 8 11

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

If Abraham was here today he would disagree with you about the land over there in palestine, he wasn't looking for that land at all, but heaven, this Matt 8 11

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

It says the kingdom of heaven, not in heaven. In other words, it comes from heaven (the last Adam), not from the earth (the 1st Adam). They were looking for a righteous city/land/country that has enduring foundations, ie. rooted in reality that would not pass away, rather than a world with a crumbling foundation that was doomed to destruction. They knew the age in which they were living was corrupted, temporary and slated for destruction in the fires of God's wrath, and looked beyond into the coming age on earth that is of heaven, rather than of earth

And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire. Hebrews 12:27-29​

​

 

[TabinRivCA]

If Abraham was here today he would disagree with you about the land over there in palestine, he wasn't looking for that land at all, but heaven, this Matt 8 11

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

In Genesis 15:1-5, the Bible says the "word of the Lord" came to Abram in a vision, telling him, "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward". God then promised Abram a son who would be his heir and that his descendants would be as countless as the stars. Abram also received the promise of inheriting the land of Canaan.

 

[brightfame52]

@ChristRoseFromTheDead

It says the kingdom of heaven, not in heaven.

Its all the same

 

[brightfame52]

In Genesis 15:1-5, the Bible says the "word of the Lord" came to Abram in a vision, telling him, "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward". God then promised Abram a son who would be his heir and that his descendants would be as countless as the stars. Abram also received the promise of inheriting the land of Canaan.

Heaven

 

[God-fearing]

Could it be that what is missing is the transformation of israel the land itself.
The new Jerusalem.
We cannot deny that Jerusalem will remain Jerusalem for eternity. A new heaven and earth where God himself shall tabernacle with his people.
I mean this is the final end isnt it.
We are ment to be with the Lord where he is.
The old is passed away after the final judgment if I'm not mistaken. So old Jerusalem and the land has served its purpose.
When Jesus comes back he is the lion of Judah, and also the redeemer of his people who are left. Being bridle high in blood does not present as a peaceful transition. The jews are told to flee to what we believe is Petra (sheep gate) ect.
I think that going to heaven when we pass is temporal according to scripture. A new earth and heaven is created.
But all must be fulfilled in the old before the new is brought in. For the word of the Lord does not return void.
This is why Israel of today is established to bring in the new. For Gods name sake.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

But all must be fulfilled in the old before the new is brought in. For the word of the Lord does not return void.

What do you mean by "old"? Old what?

 

[God-fearing]

What do you mean by "old"? Old what?

The old testament promises made to israel and to Jesus.

 

[Needevidence]

Well you and facts have a very loose relationship. We've established that with other subjects. Where did I say I had nothing to say? I asked a question, either you can find the answer or you can't. How were covenants made in the OT? I didn't ask a difficult question. When you have the answer, let me know.

simple request - if you have the answer tell me.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The jews are told to flee to what we believe is Petra (sheep gate) ect.

Where are Jews told this?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I came across this video that explains Israel prophesied as coming to Jesus. Pretty complete video about the all the prophecies about Israel. And it is a good outcome!

After This.. Israel Will Accept Jesus As Their Messiah​

I took some notes from the video...

Israel will accept Jesus as their Messiah.

A 2,500 year old prophecy is unfolding right before our eyes and when it is complete it will trigger the most dramatic spiritual awakening in history.

3 Events must happen first.

Sign #1 - Israel becomes a cup of trembling to all the nations around it.

Behold I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling to all the surrounding peoples when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. (Zechariah 12:1-2).

In ancient Middle-Eastern culture was forced to drink a cup of trembling, it meant they were being made to consume something that would make them irrational, unstable, unable to think clearly.

UN has made more condemnations against Israel than any nations including North Korea's nuclear program for example.

Sign #2 - Jerusalem's enemies to be destroyed.

And it shall happen on that day that I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all peoples. All who would give it away will surely be cut in pieces. Though all nations of the earth are gathered against it, in that day, I will strike every horse with confusion and its rider with madness. I will open my eyes on the house of Judah and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. (Zechariah 12:3-7)

Horses in biblical prophecy often represent military might.

Sign #3 - The Spirit of Grace and Supplication

God's plan for Israel: God isn't just protecting Israel for political reasons, He is protecting them for a spiritual purpose that He revealed to Zechariah in the most important prophecy in the entire old testament.

And I will pour on the House of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and supplication. Then they will look on me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son. And grieve for him as one grieves for a first born. (Zechariah 12:10)

This comes through direct divine intervention after Israel's enemies are defeated.

Their hardened heart was actually prophesied. God allowed Israel's heart to be hardened for a time. God had given them a spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear. (Romans 11:8)

This was not random or accidental. It was intentional. What looked like rejection was actually redirection. Their rejection caused the gospel to spread like wildfire to other parts of the earth [not so much far east or south east Asia (.]

Won't stay that way forever, fortunately for Israel. It's only temporary. More Jews have to come to faith in Jesus for the last 50 years than in the 1,000 years combined. The hard heart is beginning to soften!

If God fulfilled all His promises to the Gentiles, then we can be sure that He will fulfill His promises to Israel.

God's plan for Israel isn't finished yet.

Why Israel will never be destroyed:

Clue #1 - Ezekiel 38-39 Gog (leader) and Magog (land) invasion. God intervenes in a mighty way. Similar to Armageddon, but not one and the same.

Clue #2 - Dry bones vision fulfilled. (Ezekiel 37:1-14) The resurrection of Israel

Clue #3 - The gathering to Israel from all nations. And their dead language was revived.

Clue #4 - Israel and the tribulation.

Clue #5 - Covenant with antichrist.

Clue #6 - The 144,000 sealed from Israel.

Clue #7 - Daniel 9:27

 

[brightfame52]

The Church, the Body of Christ Israel, has always been those individuals God foreknew in the purpose of Christ Rom 11:2

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

The same people Paul speaks of here as referring to the Church the Body of Christ Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

And these are the ones it is promised Jesus shall save from their sins , His People Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins. 2

 

[Beckworth]

No, it hasn't. In the NT Israel is called Israel and the church the church. Never is one meaning the other.

So The Body of Christ, Israel according to the Spirit, the Election of Grace is not a replacement, it always has been, its now clarified who they are.[/QUOTE]

Nope. Romans 11 makes it clear God will restore the Jewish people. YOU are grafted in. [/QUOTE]

Romans 11 says the Jews will be grafted in ONLY “IF” they do not continue in UNBELIEF. Verse 23. It is against everything we know about God and His word to believe that God will MAKE or FORCE anyone —Jew or gentiles—to believe. God does not FORCE people to believe or obey Him. He wants “WILLING” hearts—not unwilling slaves or robots.

There is much mis-understanding and teaching about Romans 11. In verse 20 when He says “and so all Israel will be saved”, that 1) is a general statement—not literal. We know it would not be realistic to believe that every Jew in the world is going to be saved. How unlikely is that? And what about all of the Jews who have already died? Are they going to be saved?
If God is going to save all Jews who have ever lived, dead or alive, what about the gentiles? If He doesn’t do the same thing for the gentiles, then God is the “BIGGEST” respecter of persons in the universe!! And that contradicts His word. PARTIALITY is a SIN according to James 2:9. Over and over again in the Bible —both Old Testament and New Testament—it emphasizes that God is NO respecter of persons( Partial)—when it comes to SIN/Salvation. Colossians 3:25-“He who does WRONG will be paid for what he has done, and there is no partiality.” This is repeated in: Deuteronomy 10:17, 2 Chron. 19:7, Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11, Galations 2:6, Ephesians 6:9.—-at least 7 times in the Bible. Before you believe a Bible “theory” or doctrine, you should make sure it does not contradict basic “Truths” found in God’s word. God has told me—repeatedly—in his word that He is no respecter of persons; He does not show partiality. He is NOT going to save one whole nation of people and not save all of the other nations of people. That is against God’s CHARACTER!! And that is NOT what that verse means, anyway.

A continuation of verse 26 says that a “Deliverer” will come. In my Bible that word is capitalized. Most versions capitalize any name that is given to Jesus. The “deliverer” is Jesus. He ( Jesus)) will turn away ungodliness from Judah. That is His purpose for coming—to save people. Do not take that as Him removing EVERY BIT OF UNGODLINESS FROM EVERY JEW WHO EVER LIVED, DEAD OR ALIVE!! Don’t read more into that statement than is there. That interpretation does not “fit” with everything we know about God and the Bible. Jesus is here FOR THE PURPOSE of removing ungodliness. He came in the world to save sinners. And any Jew who will believe in Him will have his ungodliness removed. If they accept Jesus as the Messiah, they will enter into a “covenant” with Him and when that happens He will remove their sins. MANY Jews will and have accepted Jesus as the Christ. These are part of the “elect” who are saved; those are “loved”. The unbelieving Jews are ENEMIES TO THE GOSPEL of Christ. How could they NOT be—they hate Him and persecute His followers. Just read the book of Acts!

Many Jews will be and already have been saved; BUT, their salvation is CONDITIONAL upon their belief in Jesus as the Son Of God. It’s foolishness to think that God is going to save ANYONE who does not believe in Jesus.

 

[brightfame52]

@Beckworth

Romans 11 says the Jews will be grafted in ONLY “IF” they do not continue in UNBELIEF. Verse 23. It is against everything we know about God and His word to believe that God will MAKE or FORCE anyone —Jew or gentiles—to believe. God does not FORCE people to believe or obey Him. He wants “WILLING” hearts—not unwilling slaves or robots.

No God doesnt force the elect to believe, He just by His mercy releases them from the prison house of unbelief. Everybody by nature and sin are concluded by God in unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Concluded is a strong word it means sugkleió: To shut up, enclose, confine

So unless God has regenerating mercy on us, we cannot believe, we will remain confined in unbelief.

 

[God-fearing]

Another prophecy fulfilled as I said before wait and see.

Isa 35:8 And a highway will be there; its name will be, The Holy Way; the unclean and the sinner may not go over it, and those who go on it will not be turned out of the way by the foolish
Luk 19:40 And he said in answer, I say to you, if these men keep quiet, the very stones will be crying out.

 

[Beckworth]

I came across this video that explains Israel prophesied as coming to Jesus. Pretty complete video about the all the prophecies about Israel. And it is a good outcome!

After This.. Israel Will Accept Jesus As Their Messiah​

I took some notes from the video...

Israel will accept Jesus as their Messiah.

A 2,500 year old prophecy is unfolding right before our eyes and when it is complete it will trigger the most dramatic spiritual awakening in history.

3 Events must happen first.

Sign #1 - Israel becomes a cup of trembling to all the nations around it.

Behold I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling to all the surrounding peoples when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. (Zechariah 12:1-2).

In ancient Middle-Eastern culture was forced to drink a cup of trembling, it meant they were being made to consume something that would make them irrational, unstable, unable to think clearly.

UN has made more condemnations against Israel than any nations including North Korea's nuclear program for example.

Sign #2 - Jerusalem's enemies to be destroyed.

And it shall happen on that day that I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all peoples. All who would give it away will surely be cut in pieces. Though all nations of the earth are gathered against it, in that day, I will strike every horse with confusion and its rider with madness. I will open my eyes on the house of Judah and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. (Zechariah 12:3-7)

Horses in biblical prophecy often represent military might.

Sign #3 - The Spirit of Grace and Supplication

God's plan for Israel: God isn't just protecting Israel for political reasons, He is protecting them for a spiritual purpose that He revealed to Zechariah in the most important prophecy in the entire old testament.

And I will pour on the House of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and supplication. Then they will look on me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son. And grieve for him as one grieves for a first born. (Zechariah 12:10)

This comes through direct divine intervention after Israel's enemies are defeated.

Their hardened heart was actually prophesied. God allowed Israel's heart to be hardened for a time. God had given them a spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear. (Romans 11:8)

This was not random or accidental. It was intentional. What looked like rejection was actually redirection. Their rejection caused the gospel to spread like wildfire to other parts of the earth [not so much far east or south east Asia (.]

Won't stay that way forever, fortunately for Israel. It's only temporary. More Jews have to come to faith in Jesus for the last 50 years than in the 1,000 years combined. The hard heart is beginning to soften!

If God fulfilled all His promises to the Gentiles, then we can be sure that He will fulfill His promises to Israel.

God's plan for Israel isn't finished yet.

Why Israel will never be destroyed:

Clue #1 - Ezekiel 38-39 Gog (leader) and Magog (land) invasion. God intervenes in a mighty way. Similar to Armageddon, but not one and the same.

Clue #2 - Dry bones vision fulfilled. (Ezekiel 37:1-14) The resurrection of Israel

Clue #3 - The gathering to Israel from all nations. And their dead language was revived.

Clue #4 - Israel and the tribulation.

Clue #5 - Covenant with antichrist.

Clue #6 - The 144,000 sealed from Israel.

Clue #7 - Daniel 9:27

That God still has “plans” for Israel is a MAN MADE doctrine that comes from a mis-understanding and a mis-interpretation of scripture.

There are many things in the books of Daniel and Revelation that I do not understand -and cannot explain, but there are a few things I know.

1) if God can “MAKE” Israel accept Jesus and be saved, then God can make gentiles accept Jesus and be saved. Only a very few people in the whole world are Christian. Is God going to make every Jew who ever lived, dead or alive accept Jesus? Then unless He does that for gentiles, He is a HUGE “respecter of persons” and the Bible is a lie. Partiality is a sin James 2:9. That makes God a sinner. God’s gospel is the same for everyone. God’s plan of salvation is the same for everyone. God is not going to “UNIVERSALLY” save the whole Jewish nation—dead or alive, anymore than He is going to save ALL Gentiles—dead or alive. That would mean God would have to save the whole world not to be a respecter of persons. That would mean nobody is going to be lost!! Everybody is going to be saved!! The Bible is a lie. That which proves too much proves nothing.

2) GOD HAD ALREADY FULFILLED ALL OF HIS PROMISES TO ISRAEL Joshua 21:45, Joshua 23:14.

3) Ezekiel’s vision of the dry bones was a prophecy about the RETURN of the Jews to Jerusalem in the books of Ezra, and Nehimiah. Ezekiel and the Jewish people were captives in Babylon when this vision occurred and it was showing The people that they would “come back” one day as a people to Jerusalem. That has already happened.

4)The 144,00 is FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE and not to be taken literally, any more than portraying the “wicked city” as a woman who was a harlot is to be taken literally. Are we to believe there is actually a REAL, literal WOMAN sitting on a REAL , literal RED BEAST that actually has seven REAL heads and ten REAL horns???? Was she actually drinking REAL BLOOD? No,. We understand that is FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE!! That is NOT to be taken literally.

The 144,000 is the same. There are Not just 144,00 Jews that are saved. 1) Thats a very small number of saved Jews compared to all the Jews who have ever lived for over 3000 years. That means thousands upon thousands of Jews aren’t going to make it. If this is literal
2). And how do you reconcile this small number of Jews with Romans 11 when YOU think God is going to save ALL THE Jews. If these Jews are coming from the TRIBES” of the OLD Testament, then does that mean NO JEWS from the last 2000 years, today, or future Jews til the end of time are going to be saved?
3) and how realistic is it to believe that there are EXACTLY 12,000 from EACH TRIBE SAVED. The exact same number from each tribe? How unlikely is that?
4). Are you aware that the 144,00 are talked about in chapter 14 as well as chapter 7? In chapter 14 we read that the 144,00 were
a- ALL MEN! That means that NO JEWISH WOMEN OR CHILDREN are going to be saved!! (If this is literal)
b-the 144,00 are VIRGINS!! Wow! That narrows it down ever more! No wonder there are ONLY 144,00 of them! These are the ones who were not defiled with women. verse 4. Literal? I don’t think so.

Men have come up with many “doctrines” The Bible uses figurative Language many times, Jesus spoke in parables, so many times even Jesus was misunderstood when He taught. Example John 4:32-33. Interpretations must be in harmony with ALL scripture and the Character of God or it is a wrong interpretation. It’s man’s interpretation that is wrong—not God or His word.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Another prophecy fulfilled as I said before wait and see.

Isa 35:8 And a highway will be there; its name will be, The Holy Way; the unclean and the sinner may not go over it, and those who go on it will not be turned out of the way by the foolish
Luk 19:40 And he said in answer, I say to you, if these men keep quiet, the very stones will be crying out.

The guy says at the start of the video "May no one ever, ever attempt to take your home from you", while Israel does that every single day to people living there, and hypocritucal Christians cheer them on.

 

[Beckworth]

@Beckworth


No God doesnt force the elect to believe, He just by His mercy releases them from the prison house of unbelief. Everybody by nature and sin are concluded by God in unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Concluded is a strong word it means sugkleió: To shut up, enclose, confine

So unless God has regenerating mercy on us, we cannot believe, we will remain confined in unbelief.

Well, in that case, God’s “regenerating mercy” is for EVERYONE—not just Jews. We must all be getting it because people are believing and becoming Christians every week. And if that is true, then the Jews have it NOW! There’s no waiting for some future time. How does that fit with Romans 11, and the “THEORY” that the Jews are “blinded now,” but one day God will take that away? Is your “concluded” verse for everybody or Jews only? If it’s only for Jews then why isn’t God going to remove the “blindness” from the gentiles? Does He not love us? Does He not care that we are “blinded” and going to be lost?Is God going to “release ALL OF US, gentiles too, from the “ prison house of unbelief? If we are ALL BLINDED by unbelief?

Can you just list the things God is going to do for the Jews in Romans 11, that He is NOT going to do for the gentiles? So we can understand? And could add the “time” factor in.? For example, are we all— Jew and Gentiles—“blinded” NOW? If so, how is it that some Jews and some gentiles are being saved now, all the time?

 

[brightfame52]

@Beckworth

Well, in that case, God’s “regenerating mercy” is for EVERYONE

Everyone who believes. If a person never believes, it wasn't for them, they had to remain locked up in unbelief.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

So The Body of Christ, Israel according to the Spirit, the Election of Grace is not a replacement, it always has been, its now clarified who they are.

Nope. Romans 11 makes it clear God will restore the Jewish people. YOU are grafted in.

Romans 11 says the Jews will be grafted in ONLY “IF” they do not continue in UNBELIEF. Verse 23. It is against everything we know about God and His word to believe that God will MAKE or FORCE anyone —Jew or gentiles—to believe. God does not FORCE people to believe or obey Him. He wants “WILLING” hearts—not unwilling slaves or robots.

I'm not going to be annoyed because this is a long thread and you may have missed that it has been said at least a dozen or more times that the Jews have to be saved the same way we all do. No one has disagreed on that point.

There is much mis-understanding and teaching about Romans 11. In verse 20 when He says “and so all Israel will be saved”, that 1) is a general statement—not literal. We know it would not be realistic to believe that every Jew in the world is going to be saved. How unlikely is that? And what about all of the Jews who have already died? Are they going to be saved?
If God is going to save all Jews who have ever lived, dead or alive, what about the gentiles? If He doesn’t do the same thing for the gentiles, then God is the “BIGGEST” respecter of persons in the universe!! And that contradicts His word. PARTIALITY is a SIN according to James 2:9. Over and over again in the Bible —both Old Testament and New Testament—it emphasizes that God is NO respecter of persons( Partial)—when it comes to SIN/Salvation. Colossians 3:25-“He who does WRONG will be paid for what he has done, and there is no partiality.” This is repeated in: Deuteronomy 10:17, 2 Chron. 19:7, Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11, Galations 2:6, Ephesians 6:9.—-at least 7 times in the Bible. Before you believe a Bible “theory” or doctrine, you should make sure it does not contradict basic “Truths” found in God’s word. God has told me—repeatedly—in his word that He is no respecter of persons; He does not show partiality. He is NOT going to save one whole nation of people and not save all of the other nations of people. That is against God’s CHARACTER!! And that is NOT what that verse means, anyway.
A continuation of verse 26 says that a “Deliverer” will come. In my Bible that word is capitalized. Most versions capitalize any name that is given to Jesus. The “deliverer” is Jesus. He ( Jesus)) will turn away ungodliness from Judah. That is His purpose for coming—to save people. Do not take that as Him removing EVERY BIT OF UNGODLINESS FROM EVERY JEW WHO EVER LIVED, DEAD OR ALIVE!! Don’t read more into that statement than is there. That interpretation does not “fit” with everything we know about God and the Bible.

The actual number of Jews who will be saved may be up for debate. That's not my issue. My main discussion point is that God will fulfill the promises He made to the Jews under the Abrahamic Covenant and that the church does not replace the Jews. God knows the number of both Jews and Gentiles that will be saved. We don't. And we don't need to.

The unbelieving Jews are ENEMIES TO THE GOSPEL of Christ. How could they NOT be—they hate Him
and persecute His followers. Just read the book of Acts!

Romans 11 says they are blinded. Every sinner is an enemy of the Gospel and hate Christ and persecute His followers. Or did you not hear of Charlie Kirk being gunned down and killed in cold blood last week?

Many Jews will be and already have been saved; BUT, their salvation is CONDITIONAL upon their belief in Jesus as the Son Of God. It’s foolishness to think that God is going to save ANYONE who does not believe in Jesus.

No one here has said anything differently.