Israel.
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You already had lengthy communication when discussing ‘forever’ ‘everlasting’ etc… hence, we called it a day as we were going around in circles – clearly not agreeing – IMO (obviously you’ll have a different view) you were not responding tot eh points I raised.
Numerous points I could make about this argument, few basic points;
- You say ‘pretty long time’ – so you have accepted it’s not forever!
- You need to read in Context and was it talking about the return from the Babylon exile and building of the second temple or now?
- Jeremiah 31:31 - “The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
- 32: It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.
- [again, why a new covenant, if Abraham’s forever – how can you break a ‘forever’ covenant?]
As I said no point engaging if we do not fully respond to each argument / point – so if you still believe you have an argument for – forever’ etc.… respond in full to the points I raised.
It's not a matter of the children of Israel being forsaken, which Romans 11 makes clear that a believing remnant of them are not, but the rejection of an earthly kingdom/nation ruled by men. God never wanted an earthly kingdom like other nations and rebuked the children of Israel severely for rejecting God's rule over them and demanding that they be like the worldly nations.
And [Israel] said unto him [Samuel], Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. 1 Samuel 8:5-7
God has only one nation, and it is a holy nation of priests ruled by God alone. Peter called believers in Christ, the king of Israel, that holy nation.But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10
In the above verse, Peter proclaims that believers in Christ are the fulfillment of God's promise to Israel at Mount Sinai that they would be a holy nation and a kingdom of priests (verse below). However, Israel immediately forfeited that blessing by breaking the covenant that God had just made with them. Instead of becoming a kingdom of priests, Israel came under the authority of the Levitical priesthood. And the promise of becoming the holy nation of priests ruled by God alone was postponed until Christ, or more specifically, until Pentecost when the holy nation of God was born in a day in Zion through the holy spirit.
Now therefore, if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then you shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And you shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Exodus 19:5-6
Worthless, any nation can throw together something like that. That natin hates God and His Christ like all the rest of the world
God's nation consists of, and only consists of, people born from above. Paraphrasing Isaiah 66:8: Shall a nation of people be born from above at once?
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the land be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Isaiah 66:8
Who has heard of such a thing? Who has seen such things? Nobody did until Pentecost when about 3000 of Zion's children were birthed from above by the holy spirit into the holy nation of GodThe ones indeed then gladly receiving his word were baptized; and in that day about three thousand souls were added. Acts 2:41
How long a time is this verse speaking of, let's start there.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Your interpretation is illogical because both Israel and Judah did cease being nations for thousands of years. Israel was destroyed in 722 BC and Judah in 70 AD. So this verse is obviously referring to the holy nation of God born from above, ruled by Christ the king, that will never pass away
How is God's holy nation born from above not a nation?
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 1 Peter 2:9
Nation means people, not land
G1484 ἔθνος ethnos (eth'-nos) n.
1. a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe.
2. (specially) a foreign (non-Jewish) one, Gentiles.
a) what’s the point your trying to make - if its forever? – ‘how long’ is a different point even if it’s a very long time or until the end times – the point being its not 'forever' – once that’s resolved we can move forward – pointless until thats resolved. You also need to consider the correct translation.
b) reply to the points I previously raised - summary below - best way to provide a response to each point by number;
1) Strong's Concordance 5769
olam: long duration, antiquity, futurity
Original Word: עוֹלָם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: olam
Phonetic Spelling: (o-lawm')
Definition: long duration, antiquity, futurity
le’olam - denotes a very long period of time, but nonetheless has an end point.
ad olam – forever (possibly)
olam - long duration, antiquity, futurity
2) Jeremiah 31: 31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
3) conflict with passages, so clearly this cannot (at least) always imply forever:
Jeremiah 17:4 - And you, even yourself, Shall let go of your heritage which I gave you; And I will cause you to serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger which shall burn forever (‘aḏ- for) & (‘ō-w-lām – ever).”
Micah 7:18 - Who is a God like You, Pardoning iniquity And passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not retain His anger forever (לָעַד֙ - lā-‘aḏ), Because He delights in mercy.
[so does God remain angry forever or not?]
4) a conflict after one passage
Isaiah 32: 14 For the palace will be forsaken, the busy city abandoned. The hill and the watchtower will become caves forever (‘ō-w-lām)—the delight of wild donkeys and a pasture for flocks—
15 until the Spirit is poured out upon us from on high. Then the desert will be an orchard, and the orchard will seem like a forest.
[so is it forever or until?]
Cambridge Commentary says:
The phrase for ever must be understood in a relative sense, being restricted by the “until” of Isaiah 32:15.
Other Isaiah passages;
Isaiah 24:5
The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting (‘ō·w·lām) covenant.
[how can you break a covenant that is forever?]
Isaiah 65:17
“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.”
5) Is circumcision ‘forever’
Gen 17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
6) PS 23:6 Surely your goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.
בְּבֵית־יְ֝הוָ֗ה לְאֹ֣רֶךְ יָמִֽים = in the house of YHWH until length of days
There is a similar idea in Ps 27:4 -
One thing I have asked of the LORD; this is what I desire: to dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze on the beauty of the LORD and seek Him in His temple.
The phrase, לְאֹ֣רֶךְ יָמִֽים = "until length of days", is Hebrew idiom meaning, "all the days of my life". this conclusion is further strengthened by its synthetic parallel in the first part of the verse which looks like this:
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life
And I shall dwell in the house of the LORD until length of days
7) Others
Jonah 2:6
To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever [olam]. But you, LORD my God, brought my life up from the pit.
Jonah 2:6, NIV
In this verse, Jonah describes his experience in the belly of the fish, using the word “olam” to convey the seemingly interminable nature of his ordeal. However, we know from the narrative that Jonah was in the fish for three days and three nights (Jonah 1:17). The use of “olam” here underscores a period that felt exceedingly long to Jonah but was finite. This example illustrates how “olam” can describe an experience that is intense and seemingly endless but ultimately limited in duration.
whats the point your making
Has the Church Replaced Israel ?
Rom 9:6
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
No, The Church has always been Israel, but not Israel after the flesh, or the physical nation of Israel See within the physical nation of Israel was always a remnant according to the election of Grace, which is also Israel. Now under the Old Covenant Spiritual Israel, the Body of Christ was mostly comprised of saved jewish Christians. They would usually be persecuted by the non christian jews in the nation Matt 5:12
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets[Believers in Crist] which were before you.
Lk 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Now under the New Covenant, Body of Christ Israel the election of Grace has been multiplied by saving and grafting in multitudes into Spiritual Israel, which is still the Body of Christ ! So The Body of Christ, Israel according to the Spirit, the Election of Grace is not a replacement, it always has been, its now clarified who they are.
Rom 9:6
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
No, The Church has always been Israel, but not Israel after the flesh, or the physical nation of Israel See within the physical nation of Israel was always a remnant according to the election of Grace, which is also Israel. Now under the Old Covenant Spiritual Israel, the Body of Christ was mostly comprised of saved jewish Christians. They would usually be persecuted by the non christian jews in the nation Matt 5:12
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets[Believers in Crist] which were before you.
Lk 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Now under the New Covenant, Body of Christ Israel the election of Grace has been multiplied by saving and grafting in multitudes into Spiritual Israel, which is still the Body of Christ ! So The Body of Christ, Israel according to the Spirit, the Election of Grace is not a replacement, it always has been, its now clarified who they are.
Why would I go over the points again? We haven't gotten off the first step. God made a covenant with Himself. Period. Start there.
Honestly, this is one of the silliest things I've heard Christians teach. I know you didn't come up with it, because i've heard it before. A covenant is between separate parties, eg, God/Abraham, God/Israel, God/David. The idea of someone having a covenant with themself is just ridiculous.
No, it hasn't. In the NT Israel is called Israel and the church the church. Never is one meaning the other.
[/QUOTE] So The Body of Christ, Israel according to the Spirit, the Election of Grace is not a replacement, it always has been, its now clarified who they are.[/QUOTE]
Nope. Romans 11 makes it clear God will restore the Jewish people. YOU are grafted in.
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