Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Universalism is the same concept as the reformed theory.
NightTwister said:
There's no universalism in reformed doctrine. Scripture is very clear that some are saved and some are not. In your theology, it's all up to man. If every man chooses to be saved, then every man will be. That is not what scripture says.
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The calvies~~ ~~ ~~God elects some to salvation, independent of ANYTHING man does or does not do.

The universalists~~God elects all to salvation, independent of ANYTHING man does or does not do.
 
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Kroogz said:
Universalism is the same concept as the reformed theory.


The calvies~~ ~~ ~~God elects some to salvation, independent of ANYTHING man does or does not do.

The universalists~~God elects all to salvation, independent of ANYTHING man does or does not do.
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Just like on Sesame Street, "One of these things is not like the other."
 
lrs68 said:
Most Reformed are Baptist and every Baptist organization i am associated with from Southern, Hardshell, German Baptist, independent are all Reformed and don't believe in the Gifts are modern day active.
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Baptists are a small subset of the reformed. There are many more reformed Presbyterians.
 
NightTwister said:
Just like on Sesame Street, "One of these things is not like the other."
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Calvies~~You need to do nothing to be saved. God elects some.

Universalists~~You need to do nothing to be saved. God elects all.

It's just a number difference between the calvies and the universalists.
 
sawdust said:
The verse He hated Esau is also in the Bible so it's no assumption.

He certainly didn't create Esau just so He could destroy him for God takes no pleasure in death. God would have to be schizoid to create people solely for their destruction.

If you cannot extrapolate what I think it means from all the conversations we have had, I wonder if you have listened and understood what I have said at all? :confused:

Election is about God choosing what to do with those He saves. In the case of Jacob and Esau, it was about from whom would come the nation of Israel. God's desire for Esau to become the father of Israel was spoken of in typical Eastern terms of extremes. "Esau He hated, Jacob he loved" signifies there can be no question as to who Israel is as a nation.
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Predestination is about what God does with those He elects. Election is about choosing individuals. In Romans 8:29, it says whom He did foreknow., and not what He did foreknow. That is talking about people, and, in particular, the people spoken of in Ephesians 1:4. Elections aren't about choosing the future outcomes of people, but the people themselves.

Just like those in Ephesians 4 who were chosen ahead of time, Jacob was chosen and Esau was not. Was there ever going to be a circumstance that Jacob was not going to eventually come to God? Was there ever going to be a circumstance when Esau was? Also, in Romans 9, where it asks if the potter can make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor, who is the potter and what does this teach us concerning Him?
 
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Genez said:
As a man thinks in his heart so is he.

Proverbs 23:7a​
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Prov 4:23
3 Above all else , guard your heart,
for it is the wellspring of life.
NIV

Whoa! Who would have ever thunk!? How come man's sacred, sacrosanct, inviolable, sovereign volition is not called to be guarded!? :rolleyes:
 
Kroogz said:
Denying it doesn't make it wrong.

Calvies have a lot in common with the universalists theory.

Acts 16:31, John 3:16.

Equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL.......Freewill.
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You've been told over and over that's not what we believe. You just prefer to continue to bear false witness. I suppose that's just your nature to do so.
 
sawdust said:


The verse He hated Esau is also in the Bible so it's no assumption.

He certainly didn't create Esau just so He could destroy him for God takes no pleasure in death. God would have to be schizoid to create people solely for their destruction.

If you cannot extrapolate what I think it means from all the conversations we have had, I wonder if you have listened and understood what I have said at all? :confused:

Election is about God choosing what to do with those He saves. In the case of Jacob and Esau, it was about from whom would come the nation of Israel. God's desire for Esau to become the father of Israel was spoken of in typical Eastern terms of extremes. "Esau He hated, Jacob he loved" signifies there can be no question as to who Israel is as a nation.
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Let me see if I have this right: God is freakin' tyrannical, bullying, manipulating monster if his grace is efficacious since he would be "kidnapping" and "forcing" poor human beings to do something against their "freewill". AND...at the same time, God is also all the above if He chooses to leave evil sinners to their own devices so that can they can freely choose with their "freewill" to do whatever evil they want?

The only way God can win is by you arrogant, prideful, scornful, mocking, blasphemous FWers creating Him in your own image! Talk about duplicity! FWT says about a coin toss: Heads I win; tails you lose. :rolleyes:
 
reneweddaybyday said:
really? ... she no longer folds the gospel into 1 Cor 2:14??? if true, good for her.
.
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What has been translated "natural man" in the Greek is psuchikos. It means - "soulish." (having no human spirit)

1 Corinthians 2:12-14

What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, ​
so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not ​
in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining ​
spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not ​
accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, ​
and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.​


1 Corinthians 2:12-14 does not pertain to the hearing the Gospel message.
It is about sitting in a Church and hearing Bible teachings that are designated for born again believers.

Or, even coming here. And, observing Christians, taking what the unregenerate can not grasp, seriously as to argue.

Now what?

How spiritual does one have to be to know he sins?
The natural man knows very well that he is a sinner.

How spiritual does one have to be?
To consider, that if God is real?
That God can not accept us in our sinful state?
Logic is the focal point in that drives that one home
Not spirituality....

And, with the Holy Spirit enabling a soul to understand 'just enough' of the Gospel to think about it?
And.... imparting just the right thoughts to consider?

People get saved with grace blocking of the flesh as to allow that soul the ability to consider just enough of what is needed.

.....
 
NightTwister said:
You've been told over and over that's not what we believe. You just prefer to continue to bear false witness. I suppose that's just your nature to do so.
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And over and over again we keep waiting to see what it is you do believe.
Never gets manifested. Nothing ever seen.

How do you explain this?


They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

........
 
NightTwister said:
Baptists are a small subset of the reformed. There are many more reformed Presbyterians.
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I actually knew there was other Protestant divisions that were Reformed but not as familiar with it as someone who is Reformed would be. But I am pretty sure I have heard that about the Presbyterians and I think some old school Wesleyan and even some Methodist that oppose same sex Pastors.
 
Genez said:
And over and over again we keep waiting to see what it is you do believe.
Never gets manifested. Nothing ever seen.

How do you explain this?


They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

........
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I would explain it by saying "all good gifts come from the Lord", belief being one of them.
 
Cameron143 said:
Election is about choosing individuals.
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Yes, choosing believing individuals and allocating them to their time and purpose. God saves believers and chooses (elects) what to do with them and where to place them. Election is for a purpose and that purpose is to be in Christ (Church) or to lead a people out of slavery (Moses) or to make a nation from which would come the Messiah (Jacob aka Israel) or to be the father of many nations (Abraham) or to be in the Garden (Adam) or to be the sole surviving family of a great flood (Noah).

If God chooses people for salvation He doesn't need to foreknow them, for who and what they are, is completely irrelevant. He can get the same result by closing His eyes and simply pointing .. you, you, you and you!
 
lrs68 said:
I actually knew there was other Protestant divisions that were Reformed but not as familiar with it as someone who is Reformed would be. But I am pretty sure I have heard that about the Presbyterians and I think some old school Wesleyan and even some Methodist that oppose same sex Pastors.
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It's clear you know little about reformed churches and denominations.
 
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