Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

You blew it.
Others know it.

Rufus said:
Wrong! The true seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are the children of promise. Genealogical descent in God's eyes means nothing! You are judging by mere external appearance, whereas God judges the heart which is not seen by others.

Somebody please inform @Rufus that the "children of promise" are those individuals who......HOLD ONTO the promises aka the covenant.
Like Jacob, the "hanger-oner". He "held on" to Christ and would not let go, this an ongoing act of Jacob's volition and desire.

And totally NOT like Esau.

 

[Rufus]

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world

that all men do not learn the lesson does not mean the grace of God has not appeared to all men ... it just means some turn from the teaching of the grace of God to man's "teaching" (aka lies).
.

Cam beat me to the punch with his own accurate answer! Grace appearing is not the same thing as grace given to all and experienced by all in the human heart.

It appears you have never received God's grace since you're far too proud to admit that God has given his grace only to his humble chosen people in eternity. When you don't like a particular truth, you just sweep it under the rug, don't you? So honest of you...

 

[lrs68]

If the gospel is the power of God to only those who believe, how can one say the grace that enables the freedom of choice is extended to those who do not believe?

What's to say that it's extended to everyone but the majority reject it like Jesus explains in choosing the wide\narrow paths?

 

[Cameron143]

What's to say that it's extended to everyone but the majority reject it like Jesus explains in choosing the wide\narrow paths?

The language of the text precludes this understanding. The gospel is only the power of God to those who believe. The text doesn't say that based on the response of the individual, power will or will not be experienced.

 

[Genez]

I suppose Jesus and the Jews of His day blew it also when the Pharisees answered in response to Him:

John 8:37-41
37 I know you are Abraham's [natural] descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father."

39 "Abraham is our father ," they answered.

"If you were Abraham's [spiritual] children [of promise]," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the things your own [spiritual] father does."
NIV

Anything else you feel like getting dead wrong?

Rufus...

If I wanted to sit in a church and learn the way of thinking you have?

What church should I look for?

 

[Genez]

Do you really believe that after all that has been shared with you that people here see themselves as elected and not you ?

The way your seeing elect is different to what elect means

Election means adoption

Adoption is a beautiful thing

How do you miss what is said so easily?

 

[Rufus]

Sure God knew that Pharaoh would not let them go. But God "turned His back" aka "hardened his heart" AFTER he (Pharaoh) refused the command to do so. Multiple times.

Thats ALWAYS the way it works buddy.
And yes, you made the FREE WILL decision to omit the necessary context.

Exo 4:23
And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Nope! God's prediction and His hardening decree in Ex 3-4 long preceded the record of Pharaoh's own hardening. Pharaoh simply responded the only way he could when God withdrew his restraining grace from the king. In fact, the narrative proves that what God decrees man willing complies with! It's called Compatibilism!

Ex 4:23 does not negate:

Ex 3:19
19 But I KNOW that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him.
NIV

What part of this text can't you understand? Are you seriously suggesting that God did not know with certainty what He was going to do to Pharaoh and how the king would react?

And this one:

Ex 4:21
21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
NIV

Also, for your info, the large majority of literal translations do not render the v. 23 with "IF". Neither does the NIV for that matter. The literal is rather stilted, so some translators likely added the "if" with the hopes of making it read more smoothly.

Finally your lame understanding, it's not how it always works. Here's how it works with the Sovereign Lord:

Prov 21:1
1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
NIV

This is how it always works, "buddy". This is what is demonstrated in the Exodus narrative. And the text doesn't say, "he directs it like a watercourse whenever He gleans knowledge from his crystal ball."

 

[Rufus]

Rufus...

If I wanted to sit in a church and learn the way of thinking you have?

What church should I look for?

Your bible and the Holy Spirit are insufficient to teach you God's truth?

 

[Jordon]

The language of the text precludes this understanding. The gospel is only the power of God to those who believe. The text doesn't say that based on the response of the individual, power will or will not be experienced.

cam grace appearing to everyone means just come as you are and I'll change you in the process.

Personal belief is personal to a person individually, my beliefs I like to share but at the same time there still personal to me individually, if a person rejects my faith after that I'll retreat and redeem that rejection, because rejection can actually be away to redeem, remembering that we all need redeeming. As rejection of the wrong things in your life can be the building blocks of your future.

 

[Genez]

Your bible and the Holy Spirit are insufficient to teach you God's truth?

I want to know what church teaches your bias in thinking.

 

[Rufus]

Rufus said:
Wrong! The true seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are the children of promise. Genealogical descent in God's eyes means nothing! You are judging by mere external appearance, whereas God judges the heart which is not seen by others.

Somebody please inform @Rufus that the "children of promise" are those individuals who......HOLD ONTO the promises aka the covenant.
Like Jacob, the "hanger-oner". He "held on" to Christ and would not let go, this an ongoing act of Jacob's volition and desire.

And totally NOT like Esau.

The "children of promise" are those God has chosen in eternity -- just like in eternity He chose Issac over Ishmael and Jacob over Esau. And God's choices do not depend upon the man who runs or the man who wills (Rom 9:16)!

 

[Cameron143]

cam grace appearing to everyone means just come as you are and I'll change you in the process.

Personal belief is personal to a person individually, my beliefs I like to share but at the same time there still personal to me individually, if a person rejects my faith after that I'll retreat and redeem that rejection, because rejection can actually be away to redeem, remembering that we all need redeeming. As rejection of the wrong things in your life can be the building blocks of your future.

As explained earlier, the grace of God appearing and the grace of God experienced are 2 different things. The cross is an appearing of the grace of God. Salvation is an experience of the grace of God experienced.

 

[Genez]

Your bible and the Holy Spirit are insufficient to teach you God's truth?

Your Bible has limits if it is a mere translation.

 

[Genez]

The "children of promise" are those God has chosen in eternity -- just like in eternity He chose Issac over Ishmael and Jacob over Esau. And God's choices do not depend upon the man who runs or the man who wills (Rom 9:16)!

And... God chose them for no reason?

 

[Rufus]

I want to know what church teaches your bias in thinking.

And what "bias" would that be? I quote a passage out John 8 and that makes me bias!? I supose in your universe, Jesus wasn't a natural descendant of Abraham either, was he?

You say such stupid things, leaving very low hanging fruit out there for easy pickings...and now you accuse me of being biased for quoting a passage that proves you're dead wrong! Fine! Color me BIASED for the TRUTH, the WHOLE TRUTH and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH! Happy now?

 

[Rufus]

Your Bible has limits if it is a mere translation.

But God has no limits. Ultimately ALL understanding comes from Him.

And you don't read out of a bible translation? Are you another original languge guru? Both Hebrew and Greek, I suppose?

 

[Jordon]

As explained earlier, the grace of God appearing and the grace of God experienced are 2 different things. The cross is an appearing of the grace of God. Salvation is an experience of the grace of God experienced.

No worries cam I was just sharing with you, I wasnt challenging anything you said

 

[Jordon]

How do you miss what is said so easily?

so just to be clear you really believe people you are in disagreement here see them selves as elected and your not ?

Which person and what was said

 

[HeIsHere]

The language of the text precludes this understanding. The gospel is only the power of God to those who believe. The text doesn't say that based on the response of the individual, power will or will not be experienced.

Believing is the individual response.
And by the way the verse does not state only.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
Romans 1:16

 

[lrs68]

The language of the text precludes this understanding. The gospel is only the power of God to those who believe. The text doesn't say that based on the response of the individual, power will or will not be experienced.

the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes...is specifically what Paul wrote. And when you read it word for word it's clear that the portion...to everyone who believes is a choice.