Israel.

[Hakawaka]

Sorry Christ-hater, but this isn't an ancient time when people can flee somewhere and hide without being detected by satellites, aircraft, drones, etc

Unrelated but bro I thought you were premill??? Futurist?

Can you tell me the ABCs and 123s of what is your eschatology exactly. Any preacher on the subject youd recommend for me to watch to give an overview as to what you believe?

Ive never seen any premillennialist claim the tribulation in Matthew 24 came and went. How does that work?

 

[Hakawaka]

Also you hit on an issue on this thread causing a lot of conflicted thinking .

When someone says “ Israel”

Some are talking about the people and others are talking about the land on this earth we’ve created and renamed as “israel “ after the war

The problem is that Israel means all of those things!

Israel CAN mean:

-The people of God, that would be you and me, us in Christ.
-The descendants of the man called Jacob
-The northern tribes, the kingdom of Israel (as opposed to Judah, in the OT)
-Israel as a united kingdom (both Israel & Judah together)
-The LAND of Israel, given to the people

So whenever its used we need to figure out in what sense is it being used.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The problem is that Israel means all of those things!

Israel CAN mean:

-The people of God, that would be you and me, us in Christ.
-The descendants of the man called Jacob
-The northern tribes, the kingdom of Israel (as opposed to Judah, in the OT)
-Israel as a united kingdom (both Israel & Judah together)
-The LAND of Israel, given to the people

So whenever its used we need to figure out in what sense is it being used.

Indeed and also figure out how the person we’re discussing with is using it . We misunderstand one another here ALOT. Myself included

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Unrelated but bro I thought you were premill??? Futurist?

Can you tell me the ABCs and 123s of what is your eschatology exactly. Any preacher on the subject youd recommend for me to watch to give an overview as to what you believe?

Ive never seen any premillennialist claim the tribulation in Matthew 24 came and went. How does that work?

Pre-mil, post wrath. I think Matthew 24 is both past and future because the disciples asked Jesus 3 questions he was answering; some answers pertain to the end of the age of the law, and some to the end of the age of the nations. ie his return to earth. Sorry I don't watch or read any preachers that I can think of at the moment.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

A lot of this mess comes from people imagining elect or chosen means saved. There is only one way to be saved and that is by the blood of Jesus and both jew and gentile must believe the gospel.
You can be part of God's chosen people and still die as a lost man. Many such cases. King Saul being a great example, who wasn't only part of the elect nation of Israel but was also chosen to be the King of Israel and still that did not matter because He disobeyed God.
They can see this in the church, but with Israel the mind is just blinded to it. You can be a church goer and not be saved.

All we are saying is this:

Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

This one verse should settle the debate once and for all. This is talking about the Israel after the flesh, who are enemies because they don't believe the Gospel and in many cases are hateful towards Christians, but despite this they are still loved on account of the patriarchs to whom the promises were given, because God's gifts and calling is irrevocable.
This cannot be talking about 'spiritual Israel' because those of us in Christ are not enemies of the Gospel.

For those who disagree with what I wrote, I would like to hear a rebuttal or an alternative interpretation of Romans 11:28? What else could it possibly mean?

No one is disputing the topics you're talking about.

If you read the thread, the fight is really about Jew-haters distorting the promises of God so that people less knowledgeable of the Bible and too lazy to be Bereans about it would just believe the lies.

I don't know why they keep thinking if the whole world turns on Israel that this hate would wipe the nation out. They either think that this might change God's mind to make Him turn against His promises to Israel or that He isn't powerful enough to keep His promises.

Either way, the more lies they keep posting, the worse their consequences.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

A lot of this mess comes from people imagining elect or chosen means saved. There is only one way to be saved and that is by the blood of Jesus and both jew and gentile must believe the gospel.
You can be part of God's chosen people and still die as a lost man. Many such cases. King Saul being a great example, who wasn't only part of the elect nation of Israel but was also chosen to be the King of Israel and still that did not matter because He disobeyed God.
They can see this in the church, but with Israel the mind is just blinded to it. You can be a church goer and not be saved.

All we are saying is this:

Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

This one verse should settle the debate once and for all. This is talking about the Israel after the flesh, who are enemies because they don't believe the Gospel and in many cases are hateful towards Christians, but despite this they are still loved on account of the patriarchs to whom the promises were given, because God's gifts and calling is irrevocable.
This cannot be talking about 'spiritual Israel' because those of us in Christ are not enemies of the Gospel.

For those who disagree with what I wrote, I would like to hear a rebuttal or an alternative interpretation of Romans 11:28? What else could it possibly mean?

Add this verse in before what you said and i would agree

“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:

but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:6-8‬ ‭

We identify people as an Israelite because they have certain flesh and blood by thier parents .that’s not how God identifies them .

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. ( not his flesh but his faith ) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. ….There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:7-9, 27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the flesh isn’t going to mean anything to god a persons faith is what counts of they are israelite or gentile

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Pre-mil, post wrath. I think Matthew 24 is both past and future because the disciples asked Jesus 3 questions he was answering; some answers pertain to the end of the age of the law, and some to the end of the age of the nations. ie his return to earth. Sorry I don't watch or read any preachers that I can think of at the moment.

@Hakawaka oh wait I meant pre-mil, pre-wrath, not post-wrath duh. I believe the lord comes before the millennium and just before the bowls of wrath are poured out

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

If you read the thread, the fight is really about Jew-haters distorting the promises of God so that people less knowledgeable of the Bible and too lazy to be Bereans about it would just believe the lies.

@AuntieChrist, the fight is really about Christ-haters distorting the promises of God, which all belong to Christ.

 

[God-fearing]

@AuntieChrist, the fight is really about Christ-haters distorting the promises of God, which all belong to Christ.

If you read the thread, the fight is really about Jew-haters distorting the promises of God so that people less knowledgeable of the Bible and too lazy to be Bereans about it would just believe the lies.


Actually both.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Any preacher on the subject youd recommend for me to watch to give an overview as to what you believe?

IMO at the moment this would be one of the better sites you could learn from. Everything I've read so far is mature and solid. The only thing I disagree with so far is amil, but not really sure that's what they believe at this point. It's the work of Jewish believers who IMO don't have the same baggage most Christians have from growing up learning wrong things. I used to go to a messianic congregation that I liked for that reason.

http://www.messianicgoodnews.org

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

@AuntieChrist, the fight is really about Christ-haters distorting the promises of God, which all belong to Christ.

If you read the thread, the fight is really about Jew-haters distorting the promises of God so that people less knowledgeable of the Bible and too lazy to be Bereans about it would just believe the lies.


Actually both.

I agree. The Jew-haters also are Christ-haters because they don't allow the Holy Spirit to conform them to Christ. If they did, they wouldn't hate Jews or Israel and they would be obedient to the Lord, living the way Jesus does.

 

[Gideon300]

You still do not get it. God favours Israel because it is Israel. God blesses all mankind in spite of their evil ways because they are made in his image. God included "nation" in His covenant with Abraham. He gave Abraham land, or have you not read that bit? And it is way more land than Israel occupies at present. That will change eventually and Israel will recover what they lost.

Do you know what "everlasting" means? Look it up in the dictionary then read Psalm 105.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I agree. The Jew-haters also are Christ-haters because they don't allow the Holy Spirit to conform them to Christ. If they did, they wouldn't hate Jews or Israel and they would be obedient to the Lord, living the way Jesus does.

lol AuntieChrist, you sure have a strange mind.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

lol AuntieChrist, you sure have a strange mind.

Of course you think it's strange. You don't really believe what God says in His scripture and you won't let the Holy Spirit renew your mind and help you live in obedience to Him.

1 Corinthians 2:14-15 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Pre-mil, post wrath. I think Matthew 24 is both past and future because the disciples asked Jesus 3 questions he was answering; some answers pertain to the end of the age of the law, and some to the end of the age of the nations. ie his return to earth. Sorry I don't watch or read any preachers that I can think of at the moment.

“age of the law, and

some to the end of the age of the nations.”

amen

“The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[God-fearing]

“age of the law, and

some to the end of the age of the nations.”

amen

“The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So what is the kingdom of God? Jesus gives us some teachings.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So what is the kingdom of God? Jesus gives us some teachings.

The kingdom of God is what you are saying there it’s what he preached it’s what they all preached that’s why we have to believe to be part of it . It is of faith we have to hear gods word about it and believe .”the gospel “ is short for the gospel of the kingdom of God “

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Jesus ( the king ) came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you his law ) and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so for instance paul

“And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

….And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:23, 30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You see it throughout his epistles

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s completely made of the promises that we can’t see of Jesus Christ

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. …..Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:3, 5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See the first person the flesh and blood people are part of this world God loves so much he gave his son to save us but not for this world for the new one to come .

what jesus and his disciples preached is gods kingdom and they also preached of course of the king .

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:33‬ ‭

In revelation 21 it’s a vision of all those promises of gods kingdom being fulfilled after judgement

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

This one verse should settle the debate once and for all. This is talking about the Israel after the flesh, who are enemies because they don't believe the Gospel and in many cases are hateful towards Christians, but despite this they are still loved on account of the patriarchs to whom the promises were given, because God's gifts and calling is irrevocable.
This cannot be talking about 'spiritual Israel' because those of us in Christ are not enemies of the Gospel.

For those who disagree with what I wrote, I would like to hear a rebuttal or an alternative interpretation of Romans 11:28? What else could it possibly mean?

I think it means that even though there is hostility between them and God because they reject his mercy shown to gentiles, God has not utterly cast them away and will receive them back and give them the promises made to their fathers if they turn and do the right thing, because he is a merciful God.

 

[God-fearing]

The kingdom of God is what you are saying there it’s what he preached it’s what they all preached that’s why we have to believe to be part of it . It is of faith we have to hear gods word about it and believe .”the gospel “ is short for the gospel of the kingdom of God “

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Jesus ( the king ) came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you his law ) and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so for instance paul

“And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

….And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:23, 30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You see it throughout his epistles

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s completely made of the promises that we can’t see of Jesus Christ

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. …..Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:3, 5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See the first person the flesh and blood people are part of this world God loves so much he gave his son to save us but not for this world for the new one to come .

what jesus and his disciples preached is gods kingdom and they also preached of course of the king .

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:33‬ ‭

In revelation 21 it’s a vision of all those promises of gods kingdom being fulfilled after judgement

I know you have a position on this but must ask...is there a third temple built?

 

[God-fearing]

I think it means that even though there is hostility between them and God because they reject his mercy shown to gentiles, God has not utterly cast them away and will receive them back and give them the promises made to their fathers if they turn and do the right thing, because he is a merciful God.

Now then we are in agreement on this....why do you feel the way you do about today's israel?