Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[studier]

Typical. Ad hominem attacks are all you have.

Just dealing with you in response in like kind.

No further interest.

 

[NightTwister]

Just dealing with you in response in like kind.

In kind? I never attacked you personally.

No further interest.

That makes it easy. I'll just add you to the dustbin of ignore.

 

[Magenta]

Matthew 7:17-18, Luke 6:4a and from John 15:4-5 ~ Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. I am the vine and you are the branches. Apart from Me you can do nothing.

 

[Cameron143]

So it has nothing to do with what they do ? And is just something god decided but not because he knew thier works ?

So What do you do with this ?

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭

Is Jesus wrong about that determining factor ?

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-8‬ ‭NIV‬‬

What do you do to square scriptire with this “soveriegn choice “ not based on his foreknowledge or what he actually said it’s based on ?

I never said judgment isn't done according to works. We will all give an account for the things we do.

Who are those who do good? Are they not those who are saved? Didn't God save us that we would do good works? Do those who are not saved do good works? Or are they self-seeking?

Judgment also includes not only works, but the motivations behind the works. This is why the only one qualified to judge is God Himself, because He alone can discern the intentions of the heart.

Even given all this, the believer has already passed from death unto life. He has already been judged at the cross and placed into Christ. They are no longer under condemnation, and not subject to the second death.

 

[Magenta]

In kind? I never attacked you personally.

Hey, just an fyi, they spent months trash talking another poster while complaining about that same poster
trash talking them, and then one day announced it was all done to keep the other busy and entertained.
You need hip waders to get through people's double standards.

 

[studier]

In kind? I never attacked you personally.

That makes it easy. I'll just add you to the dustbin of ignore.

You should do a little more homework on fallacious argumentation. Your response to me about the dictionary had at least 4 forms of fallacy I could identify, including ad hominem.

Ignore is your best bet.

Moving on.

 

[cv5]

All you have are your childish ways. It's time to grow up.

See what I mean?

 

[Rufus]

Ok even the hard core reformers here i have all seen post that when man is in front of God at the great white throne judgment. He will have no excuse.

If every single man has no excuse then every single man had a chance. It dosent get any simpler than that.

When Jesus died on the cross it did 2 things (1) convict all the non believers so they have no excuse (2) allow the believer or the elect a way to be reconciled with God.

Jesus didnt die just for the believers. Its just only the believer or the elect can reap the benefits to what his death accomplished. Those are two differnt things no matter how you look at it. They do however yield the same results.

The lack of excuse is not due to God providing equal opportunities to repent and believe the gospel. The lack of excuse is due to man's own INNATE knowledge of his personal sinfulness due to the works of the law written on his heart and his God-given faculty of conscience. Besides, as I have showed recently "time and chance" happen to all men (Eccl 9:11-12)...and these do not treat all men equally. Not even close! Did God deal equally with Issac and Ishmael? Or with Jacob and Esau? Or with Adam and Eve? Or did God give each and every person in the nations equal chance to participate in the Abrahamic Covenant?

Can't get any simpler than this to expose the fallacious lie of "equality".

 

[studier]

See what I mean?

Yes.

 

[Cameron143]

God does not have to look into the future.
For, God has always known the future.

Did God choose before the foundations of the earth for Moses to be made the Bride of Christ?

No... Moses was chosen by God to be a Jew, to be living and believing in the age of Israel, not the church age.

Only those who were chosen "in Christ" are to be the Bride.
Predestined to be born during the Church age!

That is what we had been chosen for.

That's certainly part of the equation.

 

[Rufus]

He atoned for all the sins in the world in the sence that every person alive just has to ask for forgiveness. Then they are forgiven. We know it dosent happen this way but if every single person repented for thier sins then every person would be saved. Once again we know that dosent happen. Only the believers or the elect reap the benefits to what his death did. But the offer went to all. Otherwise God would not be just.

That isn't what Jn 3:17 says.

 

[Rufus]

Jesus paid for the sins of every single individual. Only those who repent reap the benefit. You have to repent you keep taking that out of the equation with these analogies

Why would God do such an absurd thing as sending Jesus in the world to atone for the sins of all men w/o exception when God knew in eternity who his sheep are and who the goats are who will never believe? Makes zero sense! But so is Pelagianism, Arminianism or FWT.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

“God has given us the Scriptures ... that is God making the first move.

God inspires faithful believers to speak His Word to the world ... that is God making the first move.”

exactly he’s always been making the first move from the beginning always extending his hand to mankind . We’re not incapable we’re corrupt

we read in Scripture "there is none that seeketh after God " (Rom 3:11). God, in His infinite lovingkindness and grace, seeks mankind. After the fall of Adam and Eve, God reached out ... God reached out to Cain ... was it a surprise to God that Cain suppressed the truth in unrighteousness? No ... just as it is no surprise to God when people in our day and time suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

As far as the methods God uses to seek mankind ... first and foremost, He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life ... He had holy men of God write down His Words so we could read them. He tells us He stretched forth His Hand to a disobedient and gainsaying people ... He sent His prophets and continues to send faithful believers to speak His Word ...

When we read through Genesis 1 and see the words "and God said" followed by whatever God said coming into being, do we really understand just how powerful God is ? ... how powerful God's Words are? Is God less powerful in our day and time than He was back in Gen 1? No ... He is just as powerful today as then ... and His Word is just as powerful today as it was back then ... and God's Word spoken from the lips of faithful believers is able to overcome any obstacle resulting from the fall of Adam/Eve which some uphold as "depravity" or "inability" or "incurable" ... or whatever stronghold which has taken root in the mind of man.
.

 

[Rufus]

as I have stated over and over in the pages of this thread ... God always makes the first move ...

God has revealed Himself in creation ... that is God making the first move. He can keep Himself hidden if / when He wants to.

God has given us the Scriptures ... that is God making the first move.

God inspires faithful believers to speak His Word to the world ... that is God making the first move.





I believe a person is born again when he or she believes.





Cameron143 and I were discussing whether natural man can understand the gospel which he or she considers foolishness.

Cameron143 and I are in agreement that natural man can understand the gospel ... some consider the gospel foolishness even though they understand.

.

And God's gift of the Holy Spirit to revive/regenerate his elect is also His first move.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I never said judgment isn't done according to works. We will all give an account for the things we do.

Who are those who do good? Are they not those who are saved? Didn't God save us that we would do good works? Do those who are not saved do good works? Or are they self-seeking?

Judgment also includes not only works, but the motivations behind the works. This is why the only one qualified to judge is God Himself, because He alone can discern the intentions of the heart.

Even given all this, the believer has already passed from death unto life. He has already been judged at the cross and placed into Christ. They are no longer under condemnation, and not subject to the second death.

lol I thought for a moment….

“I never said judgment isn't done according to works. We will all give an account for the things we do.”

but then …eeerch !!

“Who are those who do good? Are they not those who are saved? Didn't God save us that we would do good works? Do those who are not saved do good works? Or are they self-seeking ?”


Its like discussing with yoda

lets go back for just a second to here

“I never said judgment isn't done according to works. We will all give an account for the things we do.”

So then what is gods sovereign choice of who to save based upon ? Remembering he knows the end , from the beginning ?

Is his decision based upon what he said it is ?

In other words

“and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Judgment also includes not only works, but the motivations behind the works. This is why the only one qualified to judge is God Himself, because He alone can discern the intentions of the heart.”

Yeah I agree with this statement but

If you’re acknowledging judgement according to what we do and even our motivations then what’s the determining factor of gods “ sovereign choice “ knowing he has foreknowledge ?


Also a seperate question , is your argument god caused them to do the good or evil they did ? Then rewards the ones he caused to do good and punish the ones he caused to do evil ?

And for sure you aren’t saying God simply soveriengly chose who would be saved before creation regardless of knowing thier works ?

 

[Rufus]

The Bible states that God "grants repentance" (Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25).

Wait a minute! God grants repentance to each and every person in the world w/o exception so that no one has any excuses on Judgment Day. Personal sins don't count...

 

[Rufus]

is god capable of being provoked to wrath by mankind’s actions ?

Yup! The God of the bible is.

 

[Magenta]

Wait a minute! God grants repentance to each and every person in the world w/o exception so that no one has any excuses on Judgment Day. Personal sins don't count...

Does it say to each and every person? If every person repented, wouldn't everyone be saved? It seems to me that not everyone repents. But harmonized with Acts 13 v 48 (When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.), those appointed for eternal life believed? Definitely those people repented. Those given to Jesus, come to Jesus. As stated before, salvation is not a one-step dance. God draws us with loving kindness to engender repentance in us. Of course we have those here who claim spiritual revelation is not necessary, but we know those people lack spiritual discernment. Not only that, they repeatedly misrepresent what the Bible says, what others say, and even their own selves. They are not trustworthy witnesses.

Isaiah 43 v 10-11 “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may consider and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no god was formed, and after Me none will come. I, yes I, am the LORD, and there is no Savior but Me.

 

[Rufus]

He chose sovereignly. The reason for the choice lies within God Himself.
Many say that God looked into the future, saw who would receive Him, and chose on this basis. That's an easy thing to believe. It fits well with many people's idea of who God is. And I would be inclined to believe this if it weren't for verses such as Romans 8:29 which speak not of what God foreknew, but whom He foreknew.

Plus God's foreknowledge is first and foremost rooted in God's plan/purpose/decree:

Acts 2:23
23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose [plan] and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;
NKJV

Note, please, the logical order of the words in this phrase. God's foreknowledge is grounded in his plan or purpose. God foreknows BECAUSE He has decreed what is to come to past.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

we read in Scripture "there is none that seeketh after God " (Rom 3:11). God, in His infinite lovingkindness and grace, seeks mankind. After the fall of Adam and Eve, God reached out ... God reached out to Cain ... was it a surprise to God that Cain suppressed the truth in unrighteousness? No ... just as it is no surprise to God when people in our day and time suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

As far as the methods God uses to seek mankind ... first and foremost, He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life ... He had holy men of God write down His Words so we could read them. He tells us He stretched forth His Hand to a disobedient and gainsaying people ... He sent His prophets and continues to send faithful believers to speak His Word ...

When we read through Genesis 1 and see the words "and God said" followed by whatever God said coming into being, do we really understand just how powerful God is ? ... how powerful God's Words are? Is God less powerful in our day and time than He was back in Gen 1? No ... He is just as powerful today as then ... and His Word is just as powerful today as it was back then ... and God's Word spoken from the lips of faithful believers is able to overcome any obstacle resulting from the fall of Adam/Eve which some uphold as "depravity" or "inability" or "incurable" ... or whatever stronghold which has taken root in the mind of man.
.

I haven’t said god was suprised by anything I’ve said god has foreknowledge and plans his work according to his foreknowledge knowing the outcome from the beginning . I’m saying he doesnt force and cause us to do the evil or the good . He ordained us to have dominion and freedom to choose from the beginning . I havent said man can surprise God or take him off guard. But that he knows beforehand and so he plans accordingly and watches things unfold from heaven as he acts accordingly to bring the outcome to pass in the end

from here

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

all the way to here

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1‬ ‭

“ how powerful God's Words are? Is God less powerful in our day and time than He was back in Gen 1? No ... He is just as powerful today as then ... and His Word is just as powerful today as it was back then ... and God's Word spoken from the lips of faithful believers is able to overcome any obstacle resulting from the fall of Adam/Eve which some uphold as "depravity" or "inability" or "incurable" ... or whatever stronghold which has taken root in the mind of man.”

yeah well said the preaching of the gospel is the power of god for salvation to anyone who believes.

“And God said, Let there be light:

and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

“being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:23, 25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

…how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, ( Jesus ) and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; ( apostles )

God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:1, 3-4‬ ‭

salvation is offered by the gospel it’s fully sufficient to save anyone if they’ll accept it but it’s accepting it that saves us god can speak to us but if we refuse to hear it and choose our own mind and judgements and ways it’s not going to save us