Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Burn1986]

^^Part 2 of that - God allowed free will/choice but used discipline to enforce it. In the NT, HE used (His spirit) inner discipline to enforce it, also creating a desire to obey, which was different than in the OT.

 

[Magenta]

"Free will" in the Bible? ~ Freedom is something believers are called to (Galatians 5 verse 13). We need Jesus to “set us free” (Galatians 5 verse 1). If Jesus has not freed us from the bondage of sin, then we are still slaves to sin (Romans 6 verses 6-7). Freedom is found in the presence of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3 verse 17). Only Jesus can give us true freedom (John 8 verse 36). Only through His lovingkindness can we truly make choices unfettered by a nature that is inherently hostile toward God.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

To what do you attribute God's foreknowledge?

Why change the direction of what I said without acknowledging it ? Now you’ve moved on to “ what’s the source of gods foreknowledge ?

First can you see my point at all even if your aren’t going to agree with the conclusion ? Did god exhibit his foreknowledge of thier actions ? And did his judgements on them come according to those actions he foreknew here it is again so we don’t lose what we were talking about

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them;so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. “
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:16-18,KJV‬‬

then if you’d like to we can talk about where gods foreknowledge comes from but can you at least see my argument to you in that example ? Wothoit avoiding it I mean lol

Even if your thinking “ I can see why zeke thinks what he thinks but he’s wrong “ can you at least see my point to you ?

 

[Rufus]

“Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭3:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The terminology of marriage to god comes from entering a covenant with him . It’s like a marriage vow to be faithful to one another. Based on the words spoken at the marriage . They were his chosen bRide.

abut they continually commuted adultery worshipping false gods one generation would obey and then they would fall back into idolatry which was the first commandment of thou shalt nots in the law he would raise them back up , they would obey for a short time and fall back to idolatry ect like a wife who keeps cheating on her hard working honorable husband who’s upholding his vow to her to be faithful but eventually …..because of her actions the marriage vow is broken by her not him but by her . Even though annercufo hisband forgives eventually he’ll be saying “ I was a husband to her but my covenant she broke “

When I asked you about foreknowledge I was thinking of this after he dwelt with them for a time just as Moses was about to die he exhibits his foreknowledge of the people and tboer deeds ahead knowing thier hearts and judgements according to it are pronounced beforhand according to what he knows they will do

This is what I was saying

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. “
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:16-18,KJV‬‬

He knew thier works beforehand and his judgements are according to those works he knew they would do . By his Foreknowledge he works all things to bring to pass his plan seen in revelation 21

Yes, "He knew their works beforehand" because He never gave the Jews a mind to understand or eyes that see or ears that hear (Deut 29:4). It appears the Israelites' ways were not in themselves!

 

[Rufus]

"Free will" in the Bible? ~ Freedom is something believers are called to (Galatians 5 verse 13). We need Jesus to “set us free” (Galatians 5 verse 1). If Jesus has not freed us from the bondage of sin, then we are still slaves to sin (Romans 6 verses 6-7). Freedom is found in the presence of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3 verse 17). Only Jesus can give us true freedom (John 8 verse 36). Only through His lovingkindness can we truly make choices unfettered by a nature that is inherently hostile toward God.

FWers don't do freedom FROM -- only freedom TO. To them freedom is only a one-sided coin.

 

[Magenta]

Matthew 13 v 16-17 ~ Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

 

[Magenta]

FWers don't do freedom FROM -- only freedom TO. To them freedom is only a one-sided coin.

Yes, they do not believe man is the person the Bible proclaims him to be. Nothing to free themselves from in that regard, no incurably wicked heart for them! They can of their own selves overcome their nature and do the very thing Jesus said was impossible.

 

[Kroogz]

I believe his position is that a person will only not believe unless they receive direct divine, unique, intervention >>> regenerated first and then belief.

Belief will not occur unless it is preceded by regeneration.

You are exactly correct. The word salads, word games and endless Questions.....Answer a LOT of questions.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

To what do you attribute God's foreknowledge?

Also look what happened when they had a mediator

“And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why ..( Moses pleads with god over his decision to destroy them for idolatry )

And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:9-11, 14‬ ‭

intercession is a real thing men can do that can stay Gods wrath for a time.

 

[Blain]

Matthew 13 v 16-17 ~ Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

Not gonna lie when I saw this it shocked me for a second seeing those big blue eyes staring me down beautiful work though

 

[Kroogz]

Yes, they do not believe man is the person the Bible proclaims him to be. Nothing to free themselves from in that regard, no incurably wicked heart for them! They can of their own selves overcome their nature and do the very thing Jesus said was impossible.

We believe what the Bible says about mankind.

The calvies don't believe what the Bible says about the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Cameron143]

Man it’s really hard to try to get to a point with you brother bravo though iv not seen better gymnastics in the Olympics

I understand your point: you believe that the foreknowledge of God recognizes what people will do and He judges accordingly. I don't deny this aspect of foreknowledge, but don't believe this aspect of foreknowledge is the extent of foreknowledge. I believe foreknowledge also includes God's foreknowledge of His purposes, of His foreknowledge as a result of creation itself, as well as His foreknowledge of individuals. You seem only to acknowledge foreknowledge according to one aspect of God's omniscience. I'm attempting to show that God's omniscience may be more encompassing than you allow for.

 

[BillyBob]

Hey, just an fyi, they spent months trash talking another poster while complaining about that same poster
trash talking them, and then one day announced it was all done to keep the other busy and entertained.
You need hip waders to get through people's double standards.

Spoken like a true fisherman fisherwoman...

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, they do not believe man is the person the Bible proclaims him to be. Nothing to free themselves from in that regard, no incurably wicked heart for them! They can of their own selves overcome their nature and do the very thing Jesus said was impossible.

Naw they’re saying any sinner who god gave breath can overcome sin and death if they accept the free gift of the gospel god offers to all mankind . To whosoever believes

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Premise 1: God's Gospel of Jesus Christ is a gift from God.

I see this a little differently ... the Lord Jesus Christ is the Gift from God.

Premise 2: Belief in the Gospel is necessary to receive the Gospel.
Conclusion: Therefore, belief in the Gospel is also a gift from God.

I believe ... the gospel of Christ is the proclamation needed for mankind to either receive God's gift or not receive God's gift.

Belief in the gospel results in the power of God bringing forth new life (which is spiritual in nature) within the one who believes.

IMO fallen man retains the faculties to believe / to actively receive, and God provides in grace and power in His Word and by His Spirit all that is necessary for fallen man to choose to believe or reject God. Simply put anyway.

In agreement "fallen man retains the faculties to believe". Sometimes we do not believe the gospel the first time we hear it. We hear it once ... twice ... three times and more. Each time we hear, we either harden our hearts in unbelief ... or we don't ... we think about it ... ponder over it ... could this thinking and pondering result in God providing "in grace and power ... all that is necessary" to soften the hardened heart ? ... so that, after hearing the gospel for the umpteenth time, we finally believe the gospel?

I've heard people talk about the many times they heard the gospel before they believed ... some folks who post in this forum have indicated the same thing.

I also believe God continues to work in the heart of those believe the gospel (and thereby are born again) to bring understanding concerning His Word. How many times have you read a passage of Scripture and God reveals a deeper meaning concerning the passage that goes beyond just a casual reading or skimming over the passage. Those are the great and precious moments I look forward to as I read and re-read Scripture ... that slight adjustment to my understanding ... God is so awesome!!!
.

 

[Cameron143]

Why change the direction of what I said without acknowledging it ? Now you’ve moved on to “ what’s the source of gods foreknowledge ?

First can you see my point at all even if your aren’t going to agree with the conclusion ? Did god exhibit his foreknowledge of thier actions ? And did his judgements on them come according to those actions he foreknew here it is again so we don’t lose what we were talking about

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them;so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. “
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:16-18,KJV‬‬

then if you’d like to we can talk about where gods foreknowledge comes from but can you at least see my argument to you in that example ? Wothoit avoiding it I mean lol

Even if your thinking “ I can see why zeke thinks what he thinks but he’s wrong “ can you at least see my point to you ?

I have acknowledged so in a later post.

 

[Jackson129]

I I believe foreknowledge also includes God's foreknowledge of His purposes, of His foreknowledge as a result of creation itself, as well as His foreknowledge of individuals. You seem only to acknowledge foreknowledge according to one aspect of God's omniscience. I'm attempting to show that God's omniscience may be more encompassing than you allow for.

God's omniscients is all encompassesing in all ways. All knowing all mighty all everything. He not only knows the outcome of every situation he knows every possible outcome to.every possible situation. So I agree with your statement. Here.

 

[studier]

I see this a little differently ... the Lord Jesus Christ is the Gift from God.

Understood. As I said, there are different ways to word the Premise(s). Since He's a Gift then so is the News about Him was the approach, I took. See here.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

And God's gift of the Holy Spirit to revive/regenerate his elect is also His first move.

right ... after someone believes and is born again ... God begins His work within the born again one to bring him or her to spiritual maturity ... no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive (Eph 4:14).
.

 

[Kroogz]

To them freedom is only a one-sided coin.

Far from it. Grace is a word that calvies just use. They don't KNOW it.