Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[studier]

Thanks for raising this. It should be clarified. When I pray the things I stated in the other post, I am in effect praying for their salvation, I'm simply not praying "God make them believe". I have a discussion in real life with a sister of mine who always wants to pray "make them believe God" and I always say you can't do that because you are violating their freedom to choose. The interesting response she gives is "it's my Calvinist background coming out".

Make of it what you will. I'm still learning about prayer and to be honest my most common prayer is "be merciful Lord, I'm just a dumb, know nothing kid".

What I want is to wrap my arms around the whole universe and everything in it and bring it into the Kingdom of God but what I can do and, more importantly what I see the Lord God do, is not what we want (He wants all men to be saved 1Tim.2:4 ), but what is right.

I always taught my children you can't always have what you want, it is better to do what's right than get your own way.

God made us to be free, can we violate that freedom, even in our fallen state, and consider we have done right?

Don't know if that has answered your question but not sure what else to say.

Your 3rd sentence answered it well. As did your statement about violating their freedom to choose. Thank you.

 

[sawdust]

actually romans 7 is pauls current struggle between the two spirits inside him

Salvation is not about stopping sin, Its about crying out to God to free us from the penalty of sin

Paul is talking about his past unsaved state which is why he cries out for salvation at the end. It is not two spirits in him but the sin nature in his flesh (another law in his body) and his mind (a function of the soul). Paul loves righteousness, always has, it's why he was so zealous for the Law. Gal.1:14 He believed he could be righteous by way of keeping the Torah with perfect fidelity. He was wrong in his approach to righteousness but he was not wrong in his love of it.

Salvation is about being made spiritually alive (wages of sin is death) which you have acknowledged. It is the function of our spirit to connect with and transfer spiritual truths from the Holy Spirit to us. It is why we must be born from above Jn.3:3 otherwise we remain in the dark and without the capacity to understand spiritual matters (apart from grace). The easiest way I find to understand is seeing us as a computer. The hardware is analogous to our body, software to our soul and the modem to our spirit. God is like the Internet, if we are to connect to Him and translate His word we need that modem. We are born without a modem and being born again is getting a modem.

As an aside, when a believer grieves or quenches the Spirit, they no longer are led of the Spirit and therefore walk as if they are unsaved, constantly walking in this battle between mind and body. Walking in the Spirit is to walk in a state of rest. Matt.11:28 It takes time to learn but mature Christians should not be in a constant battle with sin.

 

[sawdust]

or we are predestined because God determined in eternity past that all who see and receive his gift of life will be conformed to his image

Yes, God determined to save believers but He did not predestine who believes and who doesn't. He predestined how you would work out the salvation you were given. God determined He would give eternal life before time began Titus 1:2 and John 3:16 tells us to whom he would give that life.

 

[sawdust]

So all mankind w/o exception is known by God?

Believers are known by God, unbelievers are not known. Matt.7:23

Is all mankind believers?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I think we are not fully born until the adoption at the resurrection of the body.

ok ... I believe the moment we are born again, that which God creates within the new believer is capable of maturing from babe in Christ who feeds upon the pure milk of the Word (1 Cor 3:1; Heb 5:13; 1 Peter 2:2) to no more children tossed to and fro by winds of doctrine (Eph 4:14) and feeding on the meat of the Word ... able to discern both good and evil (Heb 5:14). Some believers do not mature - either because they are satisfied to remain in an immature state ... or perhaps they are feeding on man's wisdom which is not conducive to proper spiritual growth and development. Those who do not mature remain in an immature state.

At the resurrection of the body, the born again believers reach full maturity where we no longer see through a glass darkly (1 Cor 13:12).

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it]. Romans 8:22-25

yes ... as we patiently wait, there is no reason why we cannot mature beyond a babe in Christ feeding on the milk of the word.

The word born means procreate or conceive.

G1080 γεννάω gennao (ǰen-naō') v.
1. (properly, of the father) to procreate.
2. (by extension, of the mother) to conceive.
3. (figuratively) to regenerate.

So a fetus has been conceived, but isn't fully born for 9 months. Something born in the womb can die. The born cannot be unborn idea has shades of gnosticism. They believed once they received gnosis they could never perish no matter what they did because they were spiritual beings that could never die

I do not believe those who are born again are given a license to sin ... this issue is covered in Romans 6.

Have you ever read/considered these verses in 1 Cor 3:

1 Corinthians 3:

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

There are some born again believers who do not take heed concerning the foundation of the Lord Jesus Christ. The foundation upon which they build consists of wood, hay, stubble ... or even gold, silver, precious stones mixed with wood hay stubble ... the wood hay stubble will burn away when tried by fire. Some folks will enter eternal life smokin' ... but they'll still enter in.
.

 

[sawdust]

Some folks will enter eternal life smokin'

That made me chuckle. Thanks.

 

[cv5]

I can see where you are comming from on that. I dont count it as a blessing compared to other blessing in the Bible. Your childern will become a great nation. You will have a heir on the throne forever in my sight ect ect. So I didnt consider that a blessing. I guess I dont know what you mean by eternal death. I know eternal life is where believers go. I see being judged to the lake of fire as eternal death. The separation from God for all eternity. I dont see being cursed as that exact same thing. Ham got cursed but im sure there are saved decendets of Ham.

First of all it is not a blessing, to the contrary the entire creation was infected with sin. Second of all it was actually Canaan that was cursed, not Ham.

Is it possible to reverse the curse by the blood of the Lamb? Yes that is exactly what Rahab and the Gibeonites did. All of them Canaanites.

 

[lrs68]

Your answer BEGS the question big time! I thought God wants to save each and every human being on the planet? How is He going to do that if He doesn't grant all hearers of the gospel the grace to believe?

Look at the Hebrew Jewish people away from the Heroes of the Faith and most of them would serve an idol faster than superman can fly from point A to point B.

Look at the Jewish leadership during the time Jesus was on earth. Misusing the Law for personal profit and the Temple like a modern day mall.

These people were so far away from God that the typical heathen Gentile looked more like Saints.

It's not as if God had to do much for the Jews already corrupted themselves.

But the issue at hand however is if they weren't Blind and Deaf would they have killed Jesus?

Clearly not.

That is why God did it because the Messiah was required to be put to death.

 

[lrs68]

The prophecy finds its fulfillment in the first century, but its application remains.

Yes and the Gentiles should rejoice because of it.

 

[Kroogz]

Re: His fairness, I doubt anyone here thinks God is unfair. It's rather what we think is unfair, would God actually do what we think is unfair, are we understanding unfairness correctly.

Yes. What is fair in equal privilege and equal opportunity?

Every individual has unique and different circumstances in life. Some have a soft heart and others are hard headed. Some are poor and some are rich. Some are humble and some are proud.

Equal privilege and equal opportunity deals with mankind FAIRLY according to their circumstances.

Some people get a gentle nudge from God, some get a brick wall.....Fair, considering peoples circumstances.

 

[sawdust]

You underestimate God's revelation of Himself to all men,

This right here. So apt. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard people say "but God never did anything for me" yet when I have developed a rapport with them and listened to their story, the amount of times God spoke to them, at times it was as if He screamed at them, yet they were oblivious. What's more, I use to point it out in the past but they would just get angry, so I stopped saying anything. The only people who would listen were those who were willing to be corrected and think they might have something to learn. Even then, they might still be angry but they recognised their anger was not warranted. God gives grace to the humble. Amen and amen.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

are you asking for Scriptural support for the fact that the dominion conferred to Adam and Eve was delivered to the devil?

Yeah I am.

ok ... well, first off, when the devil stated that power over the kingdoms of the world had been delivered to him, the Lord Jesus Christ did not dispute that claim.

then we've got these verses ...

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

John 16:7-11 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

God is in control, not the devil <- that is what I would claim.

Yes, God is over all.

When God conferred to Adam and Eve dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth (Gen 1:26), did that mean that God was not in control? I do not believe that was the case.

The adversary of God having certain authority over what was delivered to him does not diminish God's power.

I do believe 1 John 5:19 could be one proof text.

yup.

The adversary may be the "prince" ... but the Lord Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords ... the Lord Jesus Christ is seated in the heavenliness ... Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come (Eph 1:21) ... and God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth (Phil 2:9-10).
.

 

[tablet123]

We can exercise free weights and machine weights if we so desire.

1Ti 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

Just don't go overboard with it.

Oh exercise free will.

Never mind.

 

[studier]

This right here. So apt. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard people say "but God never did anything for me" yet when I have developed a rapport with them and listened to their story, the amount of times God spoke to them, at times it was as if He screamed at them, yet they were oblivious. What's more, I use to point it out in the past but they would just get angry, so I stopped saying anything. The only people who would listen were those who were willing to be corrected and think they might have something to learn. Even then, they might still be angry but they recognised their anger was not warranted. God gives grace to the humble. Amen and amen.

For decades in certain conversations with unbelievers I could see and hear ways God was tapping them on the shoulder and even slapping them upside the head. I'd inform them, prod them, whatever I sensed my ambassadorship would be fulfilled by. All of those not ready to accept responses would be interesting, from the looks in the eyes to the content of their words. One thing I was certain of is that God was there. That seemed very clear from many angles, including the content and flow of my part of the discussion.

I had one such encounter last month, and it wasn't a tap or a slap or a scream but a full-on massive billboard with flashing lights so clearly observed that he had taken pictures of things to show me because he knew I'd appreciate it. Sadly, I think I did more than he even though I could see how it was perfectly structured for him.

What was obvious to me was seeing God working and a man choosing lifestyle instead of God. My discussion with Him was why He works as He does which He doesn't always fill me in on.

I did pray for Him to continue working for those involved in the discussion.

Thanks for your comments and insights.

 

[studier]

Equal privilege and equal opportunity deals with mankind FAIRLY according to their circumstances.

As I just alluded to @sawdust it's amazing to have encountered the various ways I've experienced Him working at revealing Himself to different people at different times, let alone to me. My last encounter seemed perfectly structured for the person.

I like how you've picked this up in your above statement. It answers some of the sarcastic questions we get about our praying. Part of my praying for the unbeliever is in your words "according to" - Who better to ask to apply perfectly individualized application(s) for any and every person...

 

[studier]

The adversary may be the "prince" ... but the Lord Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords ... the Lord Jesus Christ is seated in the heavenliness ... Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come (Eph 1:21) ... and God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth (Phil 2:9-10).

I wish I could read more people evangelizing with this type of content as Paul did in Acts13 where he included reference to Ps2 which is one of the best, succinct, fairly brief parts of Scripture explaining who and what "YHWH's Anointed" is and means. King of Kings indeed and the only foundation per Paul.

 

[Komentaja]

I mean why even have a bible at all right? If you are either damed for all eternity or saved for all eternity before you were even born. God would just will you into believing if you are of the elect. Why even have a bible you would just magically come to God by his will. All the billions of bibles printed in every language are just for what show? It makes no sense to me why people think man's responsibility is not part of the equation.

They would say God ordains both the ends and the means by which the elect are drawn. So the preaching of the Gospel is how they are drawn and the Bible reading is part of the way they are sanctified.

I agree with you though. Logically it makes no sense. All the ifs and all the warnings are meaningless in a system where the elect can never perish. I have not found a satisfactory answer to this from the reformed position.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The verse that I posted was to demonstrate that God does indeed treat individuals differently.
Deut 7:6
“For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth.

Eph 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

All through scripture God chooses a people to be His. Why then, would He all of a sudden leave it entirely up to man to choose or reject Him? Is it simply to give all men an equal chance? That is a absurd thought!

Who is man to tell God what He must do?

God chose Israel as a nation and had a plan for them..

That's different than choosing people for eternity with him, and choosing people to send to hell for eternity.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Paul is talking about his past unsaved state which is why he cries out for salvation at the end.

Actually he thanked God for his salvation at the end.

He is talking in present tense not past tense. So to say he is speaking about his past. when he is talking about a present struggle is to misapply pauls words.

It is not two spirits in him but the sin nature in his flesh (another law in his body) and his mind (a function of the soul). Paul loves righteousness, always has, it's why he was so zealous for the Law. Gal.1:14 He believed he could be righteous by way of keeping the Torah with perfect fidelity. He was wrong in his approach to righteousness but he was not wrong in his love of it.

But he still could not do good. No person who is not saved can do Good (in Gods eyes) all works are self righteous works..

We love because he first loved us. Paul had no struggle before salvation except with his flesh.

the spirit and the ability was not yet there before he came to christ.

Salvation is about being made spiritually alive (wages of sin is death) which you have acknowledged. It is the function of our spirit to connect with and transfer spiritual truths from the Holy Spirit to us. It is why we must be born from above Jn.3:3 otherwise we remain in the dark and without the capacity to understand spiritual matters (apart from grace). The easiest way I find to understand is seeing us as a computer. The hardware is analogous to our body, software to our soul and the modem to our spirit. God is like the Internet, if we are to connect to Him and translate His word we need that modem. We are born without a modem and being born again is getting a modem.

I think you just made my point for me. to prove Paul was not speaking before salvation. where the things of God are foolish and we can not understand them, even Paul

As an aside, when a believer grieves or quenches the Spirit, they no longer are led of the Spirit and therefore walk as if they are unsaved, constantly walking in this battle between mind and body. Walking in the Spirit is to walk in a state of rest. Matt.11:28 It takes time to learn but mature Christians should not be in a constant battle with sin.

That was paul's whole point in romans 7, to point this out..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes, God determined to save believers but He did not predestine who believes and who doesn't. He predestined how you would work out the salvation you were given. God determined He would give eternal life before time began Titus 1:2 and John 3:16 tells us to whom he would give that life.

yes..

He did not chose one baby to send to hell and one to come to heaven before they were born (romans 9) as a fatalist would claim