Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[BillyBob]

or lead to us following men, because we chose to pick people who agree with us?

I see this far to often

You seem to be nit picking everything that I post! But that's OK, I can take it.

 

[studier]

Paul is talking about his past unsaved state which is why he cries out for salvation at the end.

Actually he thanked God for his salvation at the end.

He is talking in present tense not past tense. So to say he is speaking about his past. when he is talking about a present struggle is to misapply pauls words.

There is a classification of the present tense that allows a writer to speak of the past and put himself there for rhetorical or dramatic purposes even using the first person "I" as if he's only speaking of himself while actually including those going through the same thing - wrestling against the flesh under Law.

IMO, this is what Paul is doing. He's looking back mainly pre-conversion with new insights and explaining life pre-Christ. Reading this light, Rom7:25 becomes not just thankfulness for the solution but kind of an epiphany leading into Rom8 where he immediately takes up the no more condemnation using a word that speaks not of the sentence but the result of the sentence being the actual imprisonment.

So, FWIW, I think Paul is looking back pre-Christ, using rhetorical parsing to make it all about himself personally while explaining it for any and all under Law wrestling with the flesh, and using it dramatically to culminate in an epiphany and thanksgiving for the amazing solution God provided and then going on to explain the freedom from imprisonment under sin and death and new life thinking and walking in Spirit.

To include what @Everlasting-Grace says, I also see in all of this that the wrestling with the flesh is still part of the Christian Life as the mind and the will in Christ in Spirit proceeds to being matured as we learn about our freedom and the by grace abilities, we have to choose to override the inclinations of the flesh. I think this is baked into Rom8 where we have commands to our volition to do so.

 

[studier]

grass from a hole in the ground

It's kind of individually necessary to rant once in a while in the face of what goes on here.

To use your terminology, I've hesitated to use the old idiom of 'opinions are like holes in the grass, all lawns have one' or something like that.

 

[studier]

You seem to be nit picking everything that I post! But that's OK, I can take it.

From another perspective, FWIW, the charge of nit-picking seems to be deflecting and several other forms of fallacy.

 

[studier]

I was reading a couple of Creeds the other day and I was comparing them to the Epistles by the Apostles and Paul plus the general knowledge we understand from Genesis to Malachi - Matthew to Revelation. I noticed many things [(man's definition)] {from the 3rd Century} that are not actually mentioned within the Holy Bible Itself.

So that led me to wonder if some of the Creeds beliefs were not more aligned with [personal interpretation] rather than what the Bible really stated.

And if so, maybe following such Creeds aren't as {[(GODLY)]} as we have esteemed them to be?

Last year I listened to, supported, then read the book made from a multi-part discussion on an issue between a couple well-versed Christians. One of them, the main one putting forth the study, spoke of how he had come to see one of the Creeds he'd so relied on, being wrong and in part responsible for one of the long-held errors his study was uncovering.

What you speak of was born out in this series.

 

[GWH]

You have never answered my question re your inane argument of "favoritism". On what basis could God play favorites, since all men are sinners? So...we're getting back to the old, tired, worn out FW saw of EQUALITY, which I showed recently does not square with Special Revelation or Natural Revelation (see my 3629 and 3739).

Also, if God's grace can be resisted by His elect, then God is a liar since no one can thwart God's plan or purpose (Gen 18:14; Job 42:2; Isa 43:13) and Jesus is a liar as well (Mk 10:27).

Further, only people who have not had their hearts circumcised by the Lord can resist His will (Act 7:51) since God never did the necessary heart work within them.

So...answer the question already that I have bolded above and have been seeking an intelligent answer from you for quite a while now.

Your question answers itself: If some were NOT sinners, then God would not be unfair to save them but not the sinners.
I advise against calling God a liar just because you ignore GW.

 

[Melach]

From what I have seen in your posts, I would certainly recommend it. You will find many copies online in PDF format. If it is of no use, it is easy to delete and at no cost to you. Happy reading!
Also, I do not consider it to be a confession as much as an answer to false teaching at the time it was written.

thanks brother. im so grateful God lead me to this understanding.

when i first showed up on this forum i was in heavy works salvation. i could never reconcile the bible's demand for holiness with the verses about salvation being solely of God. until i found the augustinian view of it which combines the two in beautiful harmony.

 

[Magenta]

I am in no way attempting to replace scripture. But, it never hurts to read and consider the thoughts of others, especially the saints of long ago....

Too funny that FWers reject, contradict, and outright deny what Scripture says and replace it with vain man-
exalting philosophy and then accuse those who believe what Scripture actually says of replacing it LOL
Truly astonishing to discover how many believe sinners are good as long as they are not atheists.
They lengths they go to in order to deny what Scripture explicitly articulates is crazy.

 

[Rufus]

He created man a little lower than the angels. I see a child vs adult analogy there. The angles knew good from evil (it was used in the temptation) where as Adam did not until he sinned that first time. So God could not punish Adam the same way as the angles and be just.

Did the angels have the knowledge of good and evil before they sinned?

Also, are you saying that God would be unjust by eternally condemning Adam for his sin? On what basis would God be unjust? Did He not predict Adam's fall? God would certainly be UNJUST if he didn't give Adam what he deserved. But you appear to be saying Adam was entitled to God's saving grace! How so? With that kind of mentality, you must be a liberal.

Mat 13-10 and the disciples (the 12) came and said unto him and said why speakest though to them (the crowds) in parables?

Mat 13-11 He awnserd and said unto them (the ones who asked the 12) because it is givin unto you (the 12 again) the know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven but to them (the crowds) it is not givin.

This isint that hard for to understand in my opinion.

There are mysteries of God that you and I aint privy to .

You're right, it isn't when you understand the context. They mysteries to the kingdom were hidden, generally, from the large crowds that had gathered around Jesus. BUT...to Jesus' disciples, He explained the mysteries. Jesus did a very similar thing to the two DISCIPLES on the road to Emmaus when he exposited numerous OT passages that pertained to Him (Lk 24).

 

[GWH]

Too funny that FWers reject, contradict, and outright deny what Scripture says and replace it with vain man-exalting philosophy and then accuse those who believe what Scripture actually says of replacing it LOL
Truly astonishing to discover how many believe sinners are good as long as they are not atheists.
They lengths they go to in order to deny what Scripture explicitly articulates is crazy.

56. M – Gen. 2:17 begins the biblical revelation of God’s moral nature and requirement and is followed up by Gen. 6:5-6 revealing that God is grieved by sin, which truth Paul noted in Eph. 4:30. A main point of the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5-7) per Jesus in Matt. 5:20 is that souls should be righteous, and main point of the Sermon on Salvation (Rom. 1-11) per Paul in Rom. 3:21-22 is that righteousness is attained through faith in Jesus as Lord (cf. Acts 16:30-31).

57. F – Deut. 30:19 is one of the clearest statements of the condition of volition in Scripture, and Jesus lamented the sinful misuse of this divine gift in Matt. 23:37. Jesus commanded the correct application of volition in Matt. 7:7 (cf. Heb. 11:6). Paul indicates that God enables sinners to seek salvation in Rom. 2:4, where he says that God’s kindness toward sinners leads them toward repentance. In 1Tim. 2:3-4 Paul taught that God wants all souls to be saved, but he lamented that many resisted God’s will in Acts 28:26-27, like Jesus did in Matt. 13:14-15.

58. W – The short version of Paul’s Sermon on Salvation in Romans is found in Eph. 2:8-10, which states that God’s grace is received through faith, not works, implying that the condition of cooperating (called partnership in Phil. 1:4-5, cf. 2:12-13) with God both by professing Christ at conversion (from first/first day) and by producing the fruit of the Spirit during sanctification (to last/the day of Christ Jesus) is NOT meritorious or a reason to think salvation is earned (Rom. 1:17). However, choosing to disbelieve God or resist His kindness does manifest spiritual separation from His blessings and warrant eventual experiencing of divine wrath per Rom. 2:4-6 (cf. Matt. 23:37).

 

[Rufus]

I mean why even have a bible at all right? If you are either damed for all eternity or saved for all eternity before you were even born. God would just will you into believing if you are of the elect. Why even have a bible you would just magically come to God by his will. All the billions of bibles printed in every language are just for what show? It makes no sense to me why people think man's responsibility is not part of the equation.

That's precisely why we have the bible! That's one side of the coin. The other side is God revealed his plan/purpose/expectation/intentions behind his salvation. How would any saint know he's saved apart from the objective presuppositional truth claims of the bible? What measuring rod would the saint have to critique his own life apart from the bible?

 

[Rufus]

No. By God's standard "cursed" is not what you think it means.

When a person is "cursed" it means condemnation to eternal death. Satan got actually "cursed", the GROUND (thornes hardships) was cursed for Adam's SAKE.....an act of mercy.

BTW, Adam and the Woman were both SAVED by God in Genesis 3.....covered by the blood because both rightly confessed at the trial.

[Gen 3:17 KJV] 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;


[Gen 3:14 KJV] 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

[Gen 4:11 KJV] 11 And now [art] thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

[Gen 5:29 KJV] 29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This [same] shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

Where are these alleged confessions recorded in scripture, pray tell? The noise inside your head that generates your fanciful imagination doesn't count as evidence.

 

[Melach]

It makes no sense to me why people think man's responsibility is not part of the equation.

man is held responsible.

the reason why its not "part of the equation" to you is because you fail to realize that there is none righteous, no one that seeks after God.

because of this God needs to give people a new heart of flesh or they will not seek God or draw nigh unto Him.

let me demonstrate:

if you read james 4:8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

and come to the conclusion man can just do this. you are simply wrong. you need to look at other passages that deal with the capabilities of the fallen man. an unregenrate man cannot just decide to approach God out of his own will

 

[Rufus]

Landing in the water after you jump off a bridge isn't exactly a curse, especially if someone tells you that you're going to end up in the water.

You truly will hate the eternal New Order wherein the [three-fold] curse upon the earth will be abolished forever.

 

[fredoheaven]

2 Corinthians 6:2 KJV — (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

It is not in the past we saved the calling of salvation at present. The response is either to accept or not. Good thing is that the Lord is sure to hear to those who will accept, received or believed the gospel.

 

[Rufus]

studier said:


Question: How do you read Paul's prayer for the salvation of Israel in Rom10:1?

Doesn't the continuing context reveal that his prayer includes his understanding that the necessity of choosing to believe Jesus is Messiah underlies his prayer? IOW, if we pray for the salvation of all men with the understanding that this means we're praying that all men believe Jesus is the Christ, aren't we praying according to God's will and likely even His good pleasure?

One of the interesting things to me about Rom10:1 is that Paul doesn't say it's his will that Israel be saved, rather he uses a word that means good pleasure and he ties it to his heart. It's the same word at times attributed to God's good pleasure and the same word proclaimed by the angelic host at Christ's first advent Luke2:14.

Can you explain to us why Paul would pray to a weak, anemic, impotent God for Israel since you believe His grace is ineffective and never the primary cause to anyone's salvation? Shouldn't Paul have prayed to the people who you think held the ultimate causal power to salvation, i.e. their "freewill"?

 

[Rufus]

The verse that I posted was to demonstrate that God does indeed treat individuals differently.
Deut 7:6
“For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth.

Eph 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

All through scripture God chooses a people to be His. Why then, would He all of a sudden leave it entirely up to man to choose or reject Him? Is it simply to give all men an equal chance? That is a absurd thought!

Who is man to tell God what He must do?

Sinful mankind is the Wanna-be God that's who he IS in the very core of his essence.

 

[Rufus]

Believers are known by God, unbelievers are not known. Matt.7:23

Is all mankind believers?

So explain, please, how God can love someone eternally He never knew in eternity.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I suppose that most people don't like to even think of themselves dead and, since no one can see themselves dead until after they're dead, most not only don't want to think of themselves dead they, literally, cannot look at themselves as dead. But the law is a mirror that reveals the level of one's deadness, and it can't make anyone perfect in the sense where one holds up a mirror to touch up her makeup. The mirror provides no foundation; it just illuminates all the blemishes that need attended to. So, when I read of Paul saying this, it brings a picture of one seeing a grotesque corpse looking back at him, and realizing that, indeed, that is the 'perfect' image of him, and he say, "Ugh...," but then he thinks of the Lord.

looking at our flesh is fruitless ... dead ...

contrast looking at the flesh with the change when we look at Scripture with unveiled hearts:

2 Corinthians 3:14-18 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it [the heart] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

or lead to us following men, because we chose to pick people who agree with us?

I see this far to often

so true ... following men leads to the problems Paul revealed concerning the church at Corinth:

contentions:

1 Corinthians 1:11-13 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?


lack of spiritual growth – Paul could not go beyond Jesus Christ and Him crucified (the gospel) in the general congretation:

1 Corinthians 2:1-2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.


carnality:

1 Corinthians 3:1-4 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?


Those who include the gospel in 1 Cor 2:14 reveal they do not understand the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory (1 Cor 2:7). Believing the gospel opens the door to spiritual maturity and an ability to understand the more in-depth spiritual matters, but to include the gospel in 1 Cor 2:14 is improper interpretation of the Word of God.
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