Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

sawdust

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2024
1,584
374
83
68
Australia
This is your understanding. I respect that it is your belief, but it is not mine. When faith was birthed in me, I believed. I wrote exactly what I believe. For you, the source of faith is you. For me, faith came by the word of God. It's a little like...I live, yet not I; Christ lives in me. I believe, yet not I, faith came by the word of God.

Have you found a verse that says people are chosen to believe? How about one that states that faith comes by believing?
But that is not what you said (the bit I emboldened). You said:

"When I heard the gospel and didn't get saved, I didn't believe."

"When I did believe, the Spirit of God employed the word of God and birthed faith in me."

By your own words you believed before you had faith.
 

sawdust

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2024
1,584
374
83
68
Australia
From the very beginning, wasn't faith always required by God? Wasn't that A&E's duty?
Salvation has always been by grace through faith. What's that got to do with God's command to believe His word or die?

It seems to me you are one who, like @Cameron143, think believing (an act of our will) is the same as faith (an empowerment of God by means of the word)

If I could create reality by believing something, I would believe there is the tastiest lasagne sitting before me right now as I'm very hungry so I'm off to get lunch. ;)
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
23,386
7,909
113
63
But that is not what you said (the bit I emboldened). You said:

"When I heard the gospel and didn't get saved, I didn't believe."

"When I did believe, the Spirit of God employed the word of God and birthed faith in me."

By your own words you believed before you had faith.
I see. What I meant was because the word of God HAD birthed faith in me. My apologies. I don't believe I believed before I had faith.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
4,153
1,135
113
That's why you are rightfully called a Pelagian heretic.
That is a very strong accusation, Magenta.

Pelagianism posits that humans are not inherently sinful due to Adam's fall and have the capacity to choose
good and achieve spiritual perfection through their own efforts, without the need for divine grace.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
23,386
7,909
113
63
Salvation has always been by grace through faith. What's that got to do with God's command to believe His word or die?

It seems to me you are one who, like @Cameron143, think believing (an act of our will) is the same as faith (an empowerment of God by means of the word)

If I could create reality by believing something, I would believe there is the tastiest lasagne sitting before me right now as I'm very hungry so I'm off to get lunch. ;)
That's not what I believe at all.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
65,548
33,367
113

2 Timothy 1 verse 9~ He has saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time began. Ephesians 1 verses 4-5~ He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 1 verse 11~ In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will.
 

sawdust

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2024
1,584
374
83
68
Australia

Jesus' words in Matthew 17 verses 20-21
Faith the size of a mustard seed moved the mountain of my unbelief .:)
Yes because faith is empowered by the word, not by our will. But if you're unwilling to believe, nothing will save you.
 

sawdust

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2024
1,584
374
83
68
Australia
Maybe WE'RE not getting it. Maybe we missed some commandment about socks and the days to wear them, what color...or not even any at all. :D
I think you did miss something.

Matt.9:28
Matt.21:25
Matt.21:32
Mk.1:15
Mk.5:36
Mk.9:23
Mk.11:31
Mk.16:11
Mk.16:14
Lk.1:20
Lk.1:45
Lk.8:50
Jn.1:12
Jn.2:11
Jn.3:12
Jn.3:18
Jn.3:36

Should I keep going? What do all these and many, many other verses all have in common? The onus to believe is placed fair and square on our shoulders. It is not God's responsibility for you believing. He supplies the power (grace) to overcome the barrier of sin and He supplies the truth but you are responsible for your own volitional response, believe or don't believe.

If people won't take responsibility for their own willfulness, why should the Lord entrust them with His greatest treasure, His word, Christ is the word.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
23,386
7,909
113
63
Then what do you think we are doing when we believe something?
We simply believe something. If I say God is good, you either believe the statement or not. You don't choose to believe or not believe by an act of volition. The belief is present or it isn't.
The same thing is true when the gospel is shared. We hear it and either believe or do not believe. We don't say to ourselves...should I believe or not? What choice should I make? I choose...
We are commanded to believe, but no where does scripture say we are to choose to believe. Belief doesn't come through an act of our will. It comes through an act of God...by the word of God. We believe as a result of what God does.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
65,548
33,367
113
We simply believe something. If I say God is good, you either believe the statement or not. You don't choose to believe or not believe by an act of volition. The belief is present or it isn't.
The same thing is true when the gospel is shared. We hear it and either believe or do not believe. We don't say to ourselves...should I believe or not? What choice should I make? I choose...
We are commanded to believe, but no where does scripture say we are to choose to believe. Belief doesn't come through an act of our will. It comes through an act of God...by the word of God. We believe as a result of what God does.
Commanded to believe while Scripture attests that the mind governed by the flesh is
hostile to God, because it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Romans 8:7
Despite those who say no verses speak to man's inability. What book are they reading?



"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8