I would like some perspectives on Revelation.
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I agree to a point. Israel can be a member of the lord's church tho. They like to think of it as a completed jew. Keep in mind all the first christians were all jews
Well .. to elaborate all was fulfilled in Christ Jesus... He is the seed (singular).
I believe it is both spiritual and physical. To understand Revelation I have to look to old testament prophecy to see the introduction then revelation to see the finish. To determine if it is something abstract or concrete, I look at the point being made. For example when God says I will make your sins whiter than snow. I know he is talking spiritual. When he says I will bring across the Jordan, naming a physical location or name a kingdom or nation. It is physical. So that is how I determine on much of prophecy read the chapters before and after because a portion of the time it is all the same context making the same point.
So I just look is God talking abstract or concrete here. Then interpret is as spiritual or physical.
Hope that this makes sense.
[Eph 3:1 KJV]
For this cause I Paul (an ethnic Hebrew of Hebrews), the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you (ethnic) Gentiles,
[Eph 3:6 KJV]
That the (ethnic) Gentiles should be fellowheirs (along with ethnic Israelites), and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
[Rom 9:6 KJV]
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
this is really a wonderful and edifying post thanks for sharing I hope some folks take the time to read through itI'm sure you are being quite accurate from a dispensationalist view point, but I prefer to believe Christ and the Bible's definitions of "church" and "Israel".
Your understandings of "Church and Israel" has been developed by the Rome Catholic Church, these past 500+ years (200 years, from JN Darby) to mislead the Christians who came out of the RCC and became Protestants, who the RCC regards as heretic and burned 10s of MILLIONS of us. The RCC, developed these interpretations of Church & Israel to confuse & sidetrack, Christ believers, down the road of apostasy, called "dispensationalism" They've done an excellent job, as the vast majority of professed Protestants are now apostate. As so many ecumenical churches like to say ... they've gone back to the "Mother Church" & that "Luther's protest is over".
Which is why I'm an Adventist, being the Remnant Church, of Rev 12 & 14, still pointing out the Anti-Christ and her "doctrines of devils" as ALL the past Protestant Reformers did. ~ ~ ~ "Here i stand, I can do no other." ~~ Martin Luther
1 Timothy 4, the Spirit warns that in the latter times, some will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. As far back as Genesis 3, the serpent's questioning of God's Commandments to Eve is seen as an early example of the "doctrine of demons", as it leads people away from God's Truth, = Jesus.
Jesus, told Israel in Matthew 23, that " Behold, your house is left to you desolate" referring to the impending judgement due to it's rejection of God's messengers and ultimately, Jesus himself as the Messiah. Then in John 19, at Jesus trial, in front of Pilate, the Jewish high priest, said" We have no king, but Caesar".
Then in Acts 7, there is the long speech to the Sanhedrin, where Steven presents a comprehensive overview of Israel's history, emphasizing God's repeated acts of Grace and Israel's persistent rejection of God's messengers, including Jesus. This speech was God's final appeal for Israel to recognize and accept Jesus as the Messiah. Which Israel rejected with the killed of Steven.
I ask YOU ... Do you see any scriptural alluding to the Jews getting a "third change" AS A NATION or people, being "the chosen people" the church, continuing on as such? The Jews by rejecting the Messiah, became as Gentiles and ONLY become God's chosen people, "spiritual Israel" again, by accepting Christ Jesus as our Lord & Savior, believing EVERYTHING He says. ( Not just the "savior" parts, as dispensationalist like to believe, ONLY)
AI response follows; ( uninspired AI, gets it
"literal Israel was God’s chosen nation, tasked with representing His truth to the world. However, with Christ’s ministry and the new covenant He established, the promises to Israel were extended to spiritual Israel—those who accept Christ by faith, regardless of their ethnic background. This spiritual Israel is now the church of Christ, which is His body and continues the mission of God’s people to spread the gospel throughout the world."
The privileges and responsibilities once given to literal Israel in the Old Testament have been transferred to spiritual Israel—those who accept Christ and keep God’s commandments.
Romans 2:28–29 – “For he is not a Jew which is one outwardly... but he is a Jew which is one inwardly.”
Galatians 3:7 – “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.”
The church—composed of both Jews and Gentiles who accept Jesus—is now spiritual Israel.
Galatians 6:16 – “And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”
Revelation 14:12 – “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
1 Peter 2:9–10 – “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood... which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God.”
Old Testament Israel > Spiritual Israel (New Testament)
Physical descendants of Abraham > Believers in Christ (Rom. 9:6–8)
Defined by circumcision > Defined by heart transformation (Rom. 2:29)
Kept ceremonial law > Keep moral law through grace (Rev. 14:12)
God's nation > God's church—Jews and Gentiles in Christ
Maybe it means that they are self-feeding?
amen
“Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
Zechariah 4:11-12, 14 KJV
They saw none of the OD events.
Is that why he states YOU 33 times.. shouldn't He have used they?
You can use the word "you" and speak to a future generation.
Then Jesus was lying to His primary audience and there is no way around that ... to state it another way, there is nothing in the passage that tells the primary audience it is not for them, therefore your interpretation means He was lying to them.
When I came out of the Catholic Church as a young man, I became an atheist, went right into the world and the “lust of the flesh, lust of the eye and pride of life”. Half my life wasted, to the cause of God. So when I started studying the Bible, I came at it from a relatively unbiased understanding of Jesus and the scriptures. I didn’t grow up sitting in a dispensationalist church, being indoctrinated into Roman Catholic “Jesuit” theology. The Bible is, the "standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience"
So when Jesus said “I and the Father are one … If you Love Me, keep my commandments” I BELIEVE HIM.. Everything before and after that, being Truth and without error, has to relate to Him as The word, scripture. The whole Bible is Truth, BOTH Old and New Testament is ALL about Jesus, and is ALL Truth to You and me. It just comes down to whether we “believe” or NOT.
By your saying that “the Church is not Israel … never has been” I’m guessing that you’re saying that God’s Church was NOT in the Old testament ?? … being part of dispensational doctrine, which breaks God’s Word up into “ages” or “epochs”. ( Forgive me, as I only recently have been coming into an understanding of this theology. It’s still a bunch of “gooble de gook” to my critical thinking, Faithful belief of the Bible.) “The just shall live by Faith” .. and I pray to God to be justified to Him, being my salvation.
Having said all that … let me say …
God had a church from the beginning, and even before Abraham, individuals like Abel, Seth, Enoch, and Noah were part of that spiritual body. The "church" existed as the faithful remnant who obeyed God and lived righteous lives even in an apostate world.
Then God “created” a nation of people, Israel, to proclaim & witness, The Father, Son & Holy Spirit, proclaiming to a wicked, idolatrous, spirit of Satan worshiping world. Israel became “The Church” to proclaim the same message as in the Days of Noah, to stop believing and following Satan, and “get into the ark” Jesus, judgement is NOW. Destruction will come to ALL who are not IN Jesus.
I’m just astonished that people don’t understand Gen 3:15 “And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel." There are only two spirits (seeds) in the world, the Spirit illustrated in Able ( righteous, the church) and the spirit of Cain ( unrighteous, the world). The reason “Seed” in the KJV is capitalized, is because it’s referring to Jesus.
The New Testament also alludes to Genesis 3, particularly in Revelation 12, where the woman and her child (seed) are depicted in a conflict with the dragon, which is identified as the ancient serpent (Satan). The "seed" of the woman is described as defeating the serpent, indicating a fulfillment of the prophecy in the context of Christ's mission.
Paul's reference to the seed of Abraham in Galatians 3:16, "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, 'And to seeds,' as referring to many, but rather to one, 'And to your seed,' that is, Christ," supports the idea that the "seed" in Genesis 3 refers to a singular descendant, Jesus Christ. Those who believe in the Seed of Gen3:15 are the body of Christ, His Church, all through OT & NT.
So you think all prophets lie if their prophecy is far into the future. Nice way to interpret scripture lol
Sure thing
.. That would be the logical discussion to go to next. I identify as Spiritual Israel, so can relate to "Replacement theology" as I understand "End time" Bible Prophecy. It relates to we covenant keeping Christians, being Israel, IN CHRIST, our Lord and Savior.Jewish nation ceased to be God's covenant people when they “corporately” ( the Nation, as God's chosen people, The Church) rejected Christ and broke the terms of the covenant. Today, the covenant promises are inherited by spiritual Israel—those who follow Jesus and keep God's commandments.
1. The Covenant Was Conditional
- Exodus 19:5–6 – “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure…”
- Deuteronomy 28:1–2, 15 – Blessings and curses based on obedience.
- Jeremiah 11:3–4, 10 – “Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant… they are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers…”
- John 1:11 – “He came unto his own, and his own received him not.”
- Luke 19:41–44 – Jesus weeps over Jerusalem, foretelling its destruction due to not recognizing “the time of thy visitation.”
- Matthew 21:43 – “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
- Daniel 9:26–27 – The Messiah will “cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.”
- Hebrews 10:1–10 – The sacrificial system was a shadow of Christ’s offering; with His sacrifice, it became obsolete.
- Matthew 23:38 – “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”
- Romans 2:28–29 – “He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly… but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly…”
- Galatians 3:28–29 – “If ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
- Romans 9:6–8 – “They are not all Israel, which are of Israel…”
- Exodus 31:16–17 – “Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath… for a perpetual covenant.”
- Isaiah 56:2–6 – Promises to the foreigner who keeps the Sabbath and holds fast God’s covenant.
- Ezekiel 20:12, 20 – “Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them…”
- Romans 1:16 – “To the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”
- Romans 10:1 – “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.”
- Acts 13:46–47 – Paul and Barnabas preached first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles after rejection.
- Romans 3:1–2 – “What advantage then hath the Jew?… unto them were committed the oracles of God.”
- Romans 9:4–5 – “Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants… and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came…”
- Matthew 5:17 – “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets…”
- Do YOU see the character of Christ, being represented in these people, calling themselves Jews, in the middle East, slaughtering Palestinian, women and children?
- Are you not aware of the Catholic Church's involvement in the return of Jews to Palestine, returning this SO CALLED “Israel” to Palestine, in 1920-49 ?
- Do you realize that many these people over in Palestine, calling themselves Jews, have no linage from Abraham / Jacob ? The are Khazarian Jews, who adopted, Judaism, back in the 800s.
- Rev 2:9 "I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan."
- Rev 3:9 "Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you."( the "you" here is spiritual Israel )
- nuf sed
And very clearly his main audience was the future generation is was describing and speaking to.
You will do great things! You will be the best you can be! You are YOU!
-to the graduating class of 2030. (pretend I used YOU 33 times!)
Jesus never states 2000 years from now, He makes it clear the destruction of the temple is a main sign >>>> 70 AD.
Sorry, but that makes Jesus a liar to his primary audience.
Your only other option is to argue there is some type of "dual fulfillment" but that does not work under examination either.
He didn't mention the destruction of the temple a single time in the OD. Main? LOL
Prophecy is rarely for the ones listening. It is almost always for a future generation.
There will always be types and shadows that are similar to the fulfillment but are not the fulfillment such as many Ac's through history but we are still waiting for the actual one.
“He didn't mention the destruction of the temple a single time in the OD. Main? LOL”
“And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
Matthew 24:1-2 KJV
That's not part of the OD. OD stands for Olivet discourse which means the teaching on the Mount of Olives.