At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

[sawdust]

And your scripture that teaches this is…….?

Proverbs 9:10
“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

How do you think you got your English translation?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

In sections.... Yes.

I find certain people will prefer the uncorrected meanings they naturally feel comfortable with.

Why is that, you may ask?

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number
of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

2 Timothy 4:3
​

I have no desire to win you over if the Spirit is failing to do that already.

grace and truth....

Okay peace to you anyways

 

[Genez]

Okay peace to you anyways

Well... OK.
But, that does not reveal what was needed to know.
To show you an example?
I will give you an easy one.

Using any of your favorite translations?
What would you tell those at a Bible study, what Titus 2:9-10 is saying to us?

I will just pick the NIV for now...

​

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. ​

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to ​

live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age. Titus 2:9-10​

What would your short interpretation be?


In Christ

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Well... OK.
But, that does not reveal what was needed to know.
To show you an example?
I will give you an easy one.

Using any of your favorite translations?
What would you tell those at a Bible study, what Titus 2:9-10 is saying to us?

I will just pick the NIV for now...

​

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. ​

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to ​

live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age. Titus 2:9-10​

What would your short interpretation be?


In Christ

I’m good i trust the Bible I’ve studied for fifty or so years ….thanks though

 

[Genez]

I’m good i trust the Bible I’ve studied for fifty or so years ….thanks though

You only trust your own understanding of a translation.
Not the Bible.

Stop running away.

Fifty years is nothing compared to the eternity we will all be learning in.


What would you tell those at a Bible study, that Titus 2:9-10 is saying to us?

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. ​

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to ​

live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age. Titus 2:9-10​

What would your short interpretation be?

50 years of study and you can not even tell us?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You only trust your own understanding of a translation.
Not the Bible.

Stop running away.

Fifty years is nothing compared to the eternity we will all be learning in.


What would you tell those at a Bible study, that Titus 2:9-10 is saying to us?

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. ​

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to ​

live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age. Titus 2:9-10​

What would your short interpretation be?

50 years of study and you can not even tell us?

Didn’t you earlier just say you weren’t interested in trying to convince me lol ? I’m really good with that I’m alright I’m good no need for you to convert me . Trying to say that as gentle as possible no offense meant but I’m good.

 

[Genez]

Didn’t you earlier just say you weren’t interested in trying to convince me lol ? I’m really good with that I’m alright I’m good no need for you to convert me . Trying to say that as gentle as possible no offense meant but I’m good.

The Word of God will convince you. Not me.

 

[Genez]

I am not trying to one-up anybody.
I only wish to open some eyes for what would make their walk with God's Word richer in their lives.

Some claim they do not need to better understand the original languages.
Languages that Bible translations were derived from.

There are those amongst us that think that their English translations will tell us all that we need to understand the Bible.
That we need no one to teach us what the original languages were saying.

For those who think that is true?
What would you tell those at a Bible study, that Titus 2:9-10 is saying to us?

​

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. ​

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to ​

live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age. Titus 2:9-10​

What would your interpretation be?

 

[GWH]

I am not trying to one-up anybody.
I only wish to open some eyes for what would make their walk with God's Word richer in their lives.

Some claim they do not need to better understand the original languages.
Languages that Bible translations were derived from.

There are those amongst us that think that their English translations will tell us all that we need to understand the Bible.
That we need no one to teach us what the original languages were saying.

For those who think that is true?
What would you tell those at a Bible study, that Titus 2:9-10 is saying to us?

​

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. ​

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to ​

live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age. Titus 2:9-10​

What would your interpretation be?

Well, someone needs to understand the original languages in order to provide translations into other languages,
but any reputable translation is like a brand of gas: put it in the tank and it will burn. Thus, to say everyone NEEDS
to learn the original languages is not correct. It is more correct to say that learning them is helpful for fine tuning.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The Word of God will convince you. Not me.

Yeah that’s why Ive spent my life studying it and asking in prayer ,,,,

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Well, someone needs to understand the original languages in order to provide translations into other languages,
but any reputable translation is like a brand of gas: put it in the tank and it will burn. Thus, to say everyone NEEDS
to learn the original languages is not correct. It is more correct to say that learning them is helpful for fine tuning.

“Well, someone needs to understand the original languages in order to provide translations into other languages,”

Isn’t that how the translations we have now into our modern languages today ?

the kjv for instance was translated by the fifty four best translators to be found at the time in tbe world into the english language . from the Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic texts.

Or the original niv from the early 1980s also was translated by many expert translators into modern English from those Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic texts . This is true of any ancient literature. Or text

 

[Genez]

Well, someone needs to understand the original languages in order to provide translations into other languages,
but any reputable translation is like a brand of gas: put it in the tank and it will burn. Thus, to say everyone NEEDS
to learn the original languages is not correct. It is more correct to say that learning them is helpful for fine tuning.

Not to learn the original languages.
But... Learn aspects about the original languages, and how a word translated into English can be totally misleading.

Titus 2:11-12 is a perfect example.

No one here can tell us exactly what it means, while depending solely on an English translation.

 

[Inquisitor]

Yes, it can be helpful in some cases unless you are using it to find a “loop hole” around what does not fit your doctrine.

You may misunderstand what I am saying.

Our salvation is based only on the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

What I mean is that the atonement itself is a gift and cannot be earned.

Now are we held accountable for our Christian life?

Obviously we are fully accountable if someone bothers to read the apostles letters.

We can end up years later denying Jesus because that results in the termination of our salvation.

We must obey the Lord's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

Simple equation; believe in Jesus and your saved, lose that faith in Jesus and you lose your salvation.

 

[GWH]

“Well, someone needs to understand the original languages in order to provide translations into other languages,”

Isn’t that how the translations we have now into our modern languages today ?

the kjv for instance was translated by the fifty four best translators to be found at the time in tbe world into the english language . from the Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic texts.

Or the original niv from the early 1980s also was translated by many expert translators into modern English from those Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic texts . This is true of any ancient literature. Or text

Yes, of course, and even reputable paraphrases are sufficient for salvation.
For those of us who are not translators, knowing the original languages is helpful rather rarely.
The best example I learned from RBT is that the original Greek genders for faith and rock in Matt. 16:18
precludes Peter from being the pope on which Christ's church would be built.

 

[Beckworth]

If there was no one who know Hebrew and Greek?
How many translations would you have.

Paul was a Roman citizen.
He knew both Hebrew and Greek.

Mark took dictation from Peter, and transcribed Peter's words into Greek.

Just looking for others to agree with you does not make the problem go away.

Yes, absolutely (they spoke the languages), but they did not REQUIRE any special knowledge of languages of others. In other words, they did not make it a stipulation in order to be a teacher. Thats all I am saying. AND, my opinion is, that it, the knowledge of languages, is not required for us, the common people, to be able to UNDERSTAND what God.says. And if I was JUST looking for others to agree with me, I would have left this site years ago! lol.

 

[Beckworth]

You may misunderstand what I am saying.

Our salvation is based only on the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

What I mean is that the atonement itself is a gift and cannot be earned.

Now are we held accountable for our Christian life?

Obviously we are fully accountable if someone bothers to read the apostles letters.

We can end up years later denying Jesus because that results in the termination of our salvation.

We must obey the Lord's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

Simple equation; believe in Jesus and your saved, lose that faith in Jesus and you lose your salvation.[/QUOT

I see what you are saying. And while I am not a believer in “faith only”, I do believe if you lose your faith in Jesus, you lose your salvation. If I misunderstood you, I apologize.

 

[mailmandan]

You almost got it.

We are not saved by faith only, we are saved by grace working through obedience.

Here is the verse:
Romans 1:5
ESV
through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,

Faith only per James 2:24 equates to an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. See James 2:14 - says/claims to have faith but has no works (to evidence their claim). That is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. *Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation and not in works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

We are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and obedience which "follows" having been saved by grace through faith is works. In regard to Romans 1:5, although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God.

*Notice that Paul said they have (already) received grace and apostleship for/unto obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus for/unto good works. We are clearly saved for good works and not by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2) and not faith "and" obedience/works.

 

[Adino]

Perhaps I was not clear myself.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I just try not to use the $5 words you have been using. (Think about using a 3rd grade reading level language....it's not as easy as you think....I myself find it difficult to not use some of those words when trying to explain things)

When you get elected sheriff of the forum then you may tell others how to post. Until then stow that dross and engage the posts as written (even if it requires you to use a dictionary).

We were "saved" at the cross with Jesus's crucifixion which happened BEFORE the cosmic foundations of the Earth were put in place and we will be saved for all eternity. So....kinda hard to put a timeline on that.
Dispositionally, that is correct, very astute, and critically important to know and understand. What happens within the temporal state has all already been decided.

We, have the distinct disadvantage of living currently in the third dimension...

That is incorrect. If our current state of scientific understanding is correct then we live in 10 or 11 dimensions but conscious experience only four of them........ but that s completely irrelevant because no matter how many dimensions exist they are all a function of the Creator creating and the result thereof.

English language only uses one of three states of past, present, and future at a time.

We do not and cannot live in the past. We do not and cannot live in the future. We most definitely cannot go back and forth between the three. Temporally speaking, we live in only one dimension.

The perfect tense is....

Language tenses are irrelevant, especially for an eternally existing, externally existing Creator of time. Temporally speaking, there might be a specific point at which the blood of Christ was applied to those saved, being saved, to be saved but even were that the case the temporal does not in any way define the eternal. It, therefore, does not define much if anything pertaining to salvation.

Also Hebrew and Aramaic are verb based....

If you have not already done so, I recommend reading D. A. Carson's "Exegetical Fallacies," because getting mired in the language is one of the most frequently occurring mistakes Christians make.






As far as the op goes, the saved person's salvation is (not "was") something that is decided in eternity and eternity is not bound by ANY of the structures or limitations of creation. Time is created. Time is a created part of creation created by the Creator and nothing about the Creator - neither His thoughts nor His works - are bound by anything occurring in time (or the passage thereof). Time is simply a measure of cause and effect. Everything God caused/es is done. He's not waiting around for any of it to happen. That would necessarily mean He is subject to that which He creates and that would instantly disqualify Him as an omni-attributed big "G" God. The creatures observe and/or experiences the passage of time, the cause-and-effect of the Uncaused Cause's first cause, but that does not mean what happens in the future for us is not already done eternally, or trans-temporally. This is important because it is God who applies the blood. God's not waiting for time to do what He does. God is not dependent on time to do what He does. The Creator is also not dependent on the creature (which is where the synergistic soteriologies go astray). It is, in fact, reasonable to reverse the order typically considered relevant to the blood and say it is because the blood of Christ is applied in eternity that we perceive ourselves having eventually gotten saved. We did not get saved and then the blood was applied, nor did we start to get saved and somewhere in the ordo salutis the blood was applied. The ordo salutis is merely a logical construct, and it should be understood as such. It is never intended to define God, His knowledge, His will, or His action (and theologians who have viewed that way erred).

 

[JohnDB]

When you get elected sheriff of the forum then you may tell others how to post. Until then stow that dross and engage the posts as written (even if it requires you to use a dictionary).

Ummmm
Unless you have singlehandedly rewritten the rules of persuasive writing....you may get off your feelings.

I'm married to an exemplary English teacher....who now works for a much larger salary in medical research.
I believe I know more than you....and you haven't said anything to convince me otherwise.
Especially by someone confused with the meanings of what they, themselves wrote. Because they just want to argue....sorry....I'm not here for that.

You may feel free to engage someone else to argue with. I'm not interested.

 

[Lamar]

Faith only per James 2:24 equates to an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works.

Faith alone per James 2:24 equates to faith alone. Not your subjective "empty profession of faith".

Faith alone is a sincere and correct belief that Jesus is all that He claimed to be, the same belief that the demons have and tremble.

But James calls it a dead faith because it is void of works.

James 2:20: "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

Not works of merit but the works of obedience toward God.

We may debate what these works of obedience may be but not the need to obey them.

Dead faith equals faith without works.

It does not equal your "empty profession of faith".