At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?
- Thread starter Beckworth
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I could agree with all you say except for your last two words—spirit baptism. I think you and I have discussed this before and you know that I don’t believe that every time the word says baptism that it is referring to “Holy Spirit baptism. The baptism that saves is water baptism in the name of Jesus. Holy Spirit baptism is not said to be done in the name of Jesus. Holy Spirit baptism is done by God, and was ONLY DONE twice in the New Testament.
I have shown evidence why I believe it was water baptism in Acts 2:38, Acts 8, and acts 10 and 1 Peter 3:21. Can you show any “evidence” from the text that the baptism that saves us is Holy Spirit baptism? I don’t mean verses that talk about the Spirit. I mean evidence from the text surrounding the baptism that would indicate it is NOT water baptism.
Take Acts 2:38 for example. What evidence is there in what Peter said and what the Jews did that suggests to you that this is Spirit baptism? And how do you reconcile the fact that they were promised the Holy Spirit AFTER they were baptized. So, they received Holy Spirit baptism and then received the Holy Spirit AFTER they were baptized?? Does that make sense to you? It does not make sense to me.
I have shown evidence why I believe it was water baptism in Acts 2:38, Acts 8, and acts 10 and 1 Peter 3:21. Can you show any “evidence” from the text that the baptism that saves us is Holy Spirit baptism? I don’t mean verses that talk about the Spirit. I mean evidence from the text surrounding the baptism that would indicate it is NOT water baptism.
Take Acts 2:38 for example. What evidence is there in what Peter said and what the Jews did that suggests to you that this is Spirit baptism? And how do you reconcile the fact that they were promised the Holy Spirit AFTER they were baptized. So, they received Holy Spirit baptism and then received the Holy Spirit AFTER they were baptized?? Does that make sense to you? It does not make sense to me.
And your scripture that teaches this is…….?
I seriously doubt that the apostles or the preachers in the New Testament had a knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew. Many scriptures teach us that we are to teach others:
Acts 8:4 - “those scattered abroad went everywhere preaching the word.” These were Christians from among the common people. They certainly did not have training in the Greek and Hebrew languages. Nor were they required to have such knowledge.
Acts 8:4 - the people perceived that Peter and John were uneducated and unlearned men. Not one single time in all of the New Testament did the apostles ever argue on the basis of the “Greek or Hebrew”Language. Do you know what that tells me? It tells me that we do not need a knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew in order to understand what God says or means in His word.
Roman’s 10:14 says “How shall they hear with out a preacher ( anyone). Verse 15 says, “ and how shall they preach unless… now the Spirit DID NOT say unless they know the Greek and Hebrew language.—He said “unless they are sent.”
1 Peter 3:15 - we are to always be ready to give an answer to those who ask us. But He does NOT require that we know the Greek and Hebrew in order to answer those who ask us a reason for what we believe.
That may be your OPINION but please do not imply that God requires it.
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Naw God speaks his word in all languages ….
“All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?””
Acts 2:4-12 NIV
No one needed to learn Aramaic or Hebrew or Galilean God is able to speak to us in the way we understand
“All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?””
Acts 2:4-12 NIV
No one needed to learn Aramaic or Hebrew or Galilean God is able to speak to us in the way we understand
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does
not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15
The language was what they spoke at that time!
That was one of the functions of speaking in tongues at that time. The early church evangelized people who spoke other languages by means of tongues. And, at that time, the message was not complex and detailed. It was simple.
Yes they were! Peter could read the Torah, as was required of all Jewish men in his day.
That is why Peter had such great recall of Scripture when it was needed.
There are people today that are bilingual, yet uneducated.
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Where there is a real need, God will provide.
Again, I recommend for those who wish to go deeper than a superficial understanding, a teacher who God raised up
for those who are serious in their study of the Word of God.
(no money asked for)
https://www.rbthieme.org/index.html#tabs-3
By demand, he taught six nights a week!
https://www.rbthieme.org/PDF/LessonListingForWeb2014.pdf
Not everyone is truly serious.
They only take themselves seriously.
Again, I recommend for those who wish to go deeper than a superficial understanding, a teacher who God raised up
for those who are serious in their study of the Word of God.
(no money asked for)
https://www.rbthieme.org/index.html#tabs-3
By demand, he taught six nights a week!
https://www.rbthieme.org/PDF/LessonListingForWeb2014.pdf
Not everyone is truly serious.
They only take themselves seriously.
Yeah that darn bible leading everyone who doesn’t learn ancient Greek astray …
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31-32 KJV
pretty sure learning Greek won’t change that way of knowing the truth …..
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:19-20 KJV
“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilæans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?”
Acts 2:4, 6-8 KJV
Im not really familiar with anyone ever needing to learn other languages to hear the truth from God but rather I recall the part where he sent our witnesses to preach the truth and made them Able to reach people who speak any language
But sure everyone should learn an ancient language and assume th ata going to change what the Bible says I guess those renown translators for instance 54 who revised and worked for seven years probably got it wrong.
Learning other languages is good for a hobby and the mind however but God doesn’t require or even suggest anywhere that anyone needs to learn any language but the one they already speak to hear his word he’s made that possible already
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31-32 KJV
pretty sure learning Greek won’t change that way of knowing the truth …..
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:19-20 KJV
“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilæans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?”
Acts 2:4, 6-8 KJV
Im not really familiar with anyone ever needing to learn other languages to hear the truth from God but rather I recall the part where he sent our witnesses to preach the truth and made them Able to reach people who speak any language
But sure everyone should learn an ancient language and assume th ata going to change what the Bible says I guess those renown translators for instance 54 who revised and worked for seven years probably got it wrong.
Learning other languages is good for a hobby and the mind however but God doesn’t require or even suggest anywhere that anyone needs to learn any language but the one they already speak to hear his word he’s made that possible already
In sections.... Yes.
I find certain people will prefer the uncorrected meanings they naturally feel comfortable with.
Why is that, you may ask?
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number
of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
2 Timothy 4:3
I have no desire to win you over if the Spirit is failing to do that already.
grace and truth....
I find certain people will prefer the uncorrected meanings they naturally feel comfortable with.
Why is that, you may ask?
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number
of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
2 Timothy 4:3
I have no desire to win you over if the Spirit is failing to do that already.
grace and truth....
Not all believers are equal.
Equally, saved, but not equal.
Some will win. Some will lose.
Yet all will be equally saved from the Lake of Fire.
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. (initial salvation)
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be
shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test
the quality of each person’s work.
If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
Not all equal!
Equally, saved, but not equal.
Some will win. Some will lose.
Yet all will be equally saved from the Lake of Fire.
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. (initial salvation)
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be
shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test
the quality of each person’s work.
If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
Not all equal!
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