At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

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Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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Let’s remember that the Bible was written in such a way that ALL people can understand it WITHOIT having to have a knowledge of the Greek or the Hebrew.
Not quite correct.
You do not need knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew.
But, the one teaching does.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
4,695
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Let’s remember that the Bible was written in such a way that ALL people can understand it WITHOIT having to have a knowledge of the Greek or the Hebrew.
When it was written, the people at then spoke the languages.
 

Beckworth

Well-known member
May 15, 2019
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Again, yes, and another Scripture indicating that blood means death is Matt. 26:2 & 28.
Christ's atoning death/blood or salvation occurs at the moment of repentance/conversion/kerygmatic faith/confession of Christ as Lord/Spirit baptism. (Acts 16:31, John 3:16, etc.)
I could agree with all you say except for your last two words—spirit baptism. I think you and I have discussed this before and you know that I don’t believe that every time the word says baptism that it is referring to “Holy Spirit baptism. The baptism that saves is water baptism in the name of Jesus. Holy Spirit baptism is not said to be done in the name of Jesus. Holy Spirit baptism is done by God, and was ONLY DONE twice in the New Testament.

I have shown evidence why I believe it was water baptism in Acts 2:38, Acts 8, and acts 10 and 1 Peter 3:21. Can you show any “evidence” from the text that the baptism that saves us is Holy Spirit baptism? I don’t mean verses that talk about the Spirit. I mean evidence from the text surrounding the baptism that would indicate it is NOT water baptism.

Take Acts 2:38 for example. What evidence is there in what Peter said and what the Jews did that suggests to you that this is Spirit baptism? And how do you reconcile the fact that they were promised the Holy Spirit AFTER they were baptized. So, they received Holy Spirit baptism and then received the Holy Spirit AFTER they were baptized?? Does that make sense to you? It does not make sense to me.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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I could agree with all you say except for your last two words—spirit baptism.
Putting aside the apostate, Pentecostal concept?
We have all been baptized by one Spirit.

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body — Jews or Greeks,
slaves or free — and all were made to drink of one Spirit.


1 Corinthians 12:13​
 

Beckworth

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May 15, 2019
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Not quite correct.
You do not need knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew.
But, the one teaching does.

And your scripture that teaches this is…….?

I seriously doubt that the apostles or the preachers in the New Testament had a knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew. Many scriptures teach us that we are to teach others:

Acts 8:4 - “those scattered abroad went everywhere preaching the word.” These were Christians from among the common people. They certainly did not have training in the Greek and Hebrew languages. Nor were they required to have such knowledge.

Acts 8:4 - the people perceived that Peter and John were uneducated and unlearned men. Not one single time in all of the New Testament did the apostles ever argue on the basis of the “Greek or Hebrew”Language. Do you know what that tells me? It tells me that we do not need a knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew in order to understand what God says or means in His word.

Roman’s 10:14 says “How shall they hear with out a preacher ( anyone). Verse 15 says, “ and how shall they preach unless… now the Spirit DID NOT say unless they know the Greek and Hebrew language.—He said “unless they are sent.”

1 Peter 3:15 - we are to always be ready to give an answer to those who ask us. But He does NOT require that we know the Greek and Hebrew in order to answer those who ask us a reason for what we believe.

That may be your OPINION but please do not imply that God requires it.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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And your scripture that teaches this is…….?

I seriously doubt that the apostles or the preachers in the New Testament had a knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew. Many scriptures teach us that we are to teach others:

Acts 8:4 - “those scattered abroad went everywhere preaching the word.” These were Christians from among the common people. They certainly did not have training in the Greek and Hebrew languages. Nor were they required to have such knowledge.

Acts 8:4 - the people perceived that Peter and John were uneducated and unlearned men. Not one single time in all of the New Testament did the apostles ever argue on the basis of the “Greek or Hebrew”Language. Do you know what that tells me? It tells me that we do not need a knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew in order to understand what God says or means in His word.

Roman’s 10:14 says “How shall they hear with out a preacher ( anyone). Verse 15 says, “ and how shall they preach unless… now the Spirit DID NOT say unless they know the Greek and Hebrew language.—He said “unless they are sent.”

1 Peter 3:15 - we are to always be ready to give an answer to those who ask us. But He does NOT require that we know the Greek and Hebrew in order to answer those who ask us a reason for what we believe.

That may be your OPINION but please do not imply that God requires it.
Naw God speaks his word in all languages ….

All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:4-12‬ ‭NIV‬‬

No one needed to learn Aramaic or Hebrew or Galilean God is able to speak to us in the way we understand
 

Beckworth

Well-known member
May 15, 2019
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Well, the one translating does, for sure, and it is sometimes helpful for a teacher, too.
Yes, it can be helpful in some cases unless you are using it to find a “loop hole” around what does not fit your doctrine.
You misunderstand the New Testament.

Have a look at the following verses just from John as an example.

Please notice the word, "believe", in each verse.

John 1:7
He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe.

John 1:12
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

John 1:50
Jesus said, “You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that.”

John 2:11
What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

John 2:22
After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

John 2:23
Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.

John 3:12
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

John 3:15
that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

John 4:21
“Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

John 4:39
Many Samaritans Believe
Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.”

John 4:41
And because of his words many more became believers.

John 4:42
They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 4:48
“Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”

John 4:53
Then the father realized that this was the exact time at which Jesus had said to him, “Your son will live.” So he and his whole household believed.

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 5:38
nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.

John 5:44
How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

John 5:46
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.

John 5:47
But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

John 6:29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:30
So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?

John 6:35
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.


John 6:36
But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 6:64
Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

John 6:69
We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

John 7:5
For even his own brothers did not believe in him.

John 7:31
Still, many in the crowd believed in him. They said, “When the Messiah comes, will he perform more signs than this man?”

John 7:38
Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”

John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 7:48
“Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him?

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

John 8:30
Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

John 8:31
Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents are To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said,
“If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

John 8:45
Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

John 8:46
Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?

John 9:18
They still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man’s parents.

John 9:35
Spiritual Blindness
Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

John 9:36
“Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”

John 9:38
Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

John 10:25
Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify





If you read John 20:31 you will see that John wrote specifically about faith, trying to persuade people to believe in Jesus as the Christ. None of those scriptures in John CANCEL OUT what is written in Revelation, nor any other part of the Bible. They do not make the scriptures in Revelation untrue. Do not pit one part of the Bible against another as if they compete with each other. ALL of God’s word is true. Just because John says we must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, does not mean that we do not have to obey Him! How did you come to THAT false conclusion??

John also tells us that JESUS says, “ If you love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.” John 14:15. And again, “You are my friends if you DO WHAT I SAY!!” John 15:14. So, even John understands that obedience is necessary to salvation. Who is going to be saved if you don’t love God or if you are not a “friend of God”? And Jesus plainly makes that conditional upon “OBEDIENCE.”
John has just proved that he believes obedience is necessary to salvation. So unless he is contradicting himself, the scriptures you gave do NOT disprove the necessity of obedience.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
4,695
812
113
And your scripture that teaches this is…….?

I seriously doubt that the apostles or the preachers in the New Testament had a knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew. Many scriptures teach us that we are to teach others:

Acts 8:4 - “those scattered abroad went everywhere preaching the word.” These were Christians from among the common people. They certainly did not have training in the Greek and Hebrew languages. Nor were they required to have such knowledge.

Acts 8:4 - the people perceived that Peter and John were uneducated and unlearned men. Not one single time in all of the New Testament did the apostles ever argue on the basis of the “Greek or Hebrew”Language. Do you know what that tells me? It tells me that we do not need a knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew in order to understand what God says or means in His word.

Roman’s 10:14 says “How shall they hear with out a preacher ( anyone). Verse 15 says, “ and how shall they preach unless… now the Spirit DID NOT say unless they know the Greek and Hebrew language.—He said “unless they are sent.”

1 Peter 3:15 - we are to always be ready to give an answer to those who ask us. But He does NOT require that we know the Greek and Hebrew in order to answer those who ask us a reason for what we believe.

That may be your OPINION but please do not imply that God requires it.
If there was no one who know Hebrew and Greek?
How many translations would you have.

Paul was a Roman citizen.
He knew both Hebrew and Greek.

Mark took dictation from Peter, and transcribed Peter's words into Greek.

Just looking for others to agree with you does not make the problem go away.
 

Beckworth

Well-known member
May 15, 2019
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Naw God speaks his word in all languages ….

All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:4-12‬ ‭NIV‬‬

No one needed to learn Aramaic or Hebrew or Galilean God is able to speak to us in the way we understand[/


The point in question was NOT about God’s power or ability.. Nor was it about how GOd speaks to us. Nor was it about the work of the Holy Spirit. It was about the ones doing the preaching and whether they had to have a knowledge of languages in order to teach others. The scriptures do not require that special knowledge in order to teach others. And while It can be helpful, the Bible is written so that common people can understand it and obey it and be saved without knowing the Greek language. I mostly see it used—not for understanding, but in seeking some obscure meaning that provides a way to “get around” a very plain teaching that contradicts their doctrine; usually a very LENGTHLY discussion as to why the verse does not mean what it plainly says. Philippians 2:8 says, “BEWARE Lest anyone CHEAT you through philosophy and empty deceit and not according to Christ. That’s good to remember.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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812
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And your scripture that teaches this is…….?


Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does
not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15​



I seriously doubt that the apostles or the preachers in the New Testament had a knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew. Many scriptures teach us that we are to teach others:
The language was what they spoke at that time!

Acts 8:4 - “those scattered abroad went everywhere preaching the word.” These were Christians from among the common people. They certainly did not have training in the Greek and Hebrew languages. Nor were they required to have such knowledge.
That was one of the functions of speaking in tongues at that time. The early church evangelized people who spoke other languages by means of tongues. And, at that time, the message was not complex and detailed. It was simple.

Acts 8:4 - the people perceived that Peter and John were uneducated and unlearned men. Not one single time in all of the New Testament did the apostles ever argue on the basis of the “Greek or Hebrew”Language. Do you know what that tells me? It tells me that we do not need a knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew in order to understand what God says or means in His word.
Yes they were! Peter could read the Torah, as was required of all Jewish men in his day.
That is why Peter had such great recall of Scripture when it was needed.

There are people today that are bilingual, yet uneducated.
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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The way you understand things? Yes.
Yeah that darn bible leading everyone who doesn’t learn ancient Greek astray …

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

pretty sure learning Greek won’t change that way of knowing the truth …..

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilæans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:4, 6-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Im not really familiar with anyone ever needing to learn other languages to hear the truth from God but rather I recall the part where he sent our witnesses to preach the truth and made them Able to reach people who speak any language

But sure everyone should learn an ancient language and assume th ata going to change what the Bible says I guess those renown translators for instance 54 who revised and worked for seven years probably got it wrong.

Learning other languages is good for a hobby and the mind however but God doesn’t require or even suggest anywhere that anyone needs to learn any language but the one they already speak to hear his word he’s made that possible already
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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Yeah no one needs to go learn any different languages God speaks them all by his spirit there are witnesses in every nation and tongue his people of every nation and tongue
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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Yeah that darn bible leading everyone who doesn’t learn ancient Greek astray …
In sections.... Yes.

I find certain people will prefer the uncorrected meanings they naturally feel comfortable with.

Why is that, you may ask?


For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number
of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.


2 Timothy 4:3

I have no desire to win you over if the Spirit is failing to do that already.

grace and truth....
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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812
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Not all believers are equal.
Equally, saved, but not equal.

Some will win. Some will lose.
Yet all will be equally saved from the Lake of Fire.


For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. (initial salvation)
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be
shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test
the quality of each person’s work.


If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.

If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15



Not all equal!​