Understanding God’s election

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lrs68

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2024
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No. Jesus's payer was not only for His Disciples.

[Jhn 17:20 KJV] 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Look at your verse it says their word. Their is talking about the Disciples.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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You know people say things like that gw whatever guy as if the natural man seeks after God when God's Word says he does not.

People like that run around like others here acting like they needed no help from God at all... while they ignore what is said of the natural man and ascribe to him qualities, characteristics, and abilities possessed only by the spiritual man. They make no distinction because they do not know the difference and refuse to acknowledge all Scripture has to say on the matter. They cannot see what they are blind to.
On the contrary, on the Hermeneutics thread we are conducting a systematic study of the doctrine of election with the expressed purpose of including and harmonizing all relevant Scripture supporting both sides, which is lacking here, so if you would like to participate there, please join us.

I just posted this on the website partly inspired by your posts: Human nature was created good but not perfect (Gen. 1:31), and Jesus had a human nature that was perfected during his earthly life (Heb. 5:8-9), which moral perfection should be every Christian’s lifelong goal (Phil. 3:12-15). Humans are born selfish but innocent babies until they attain the stage of moral accountability or conscience (normally about the stage of pre-pubescence), comparable to when Adam and Eve became aware it was wrong to eat from the forbidden tree (Gen. 2:17).
 
Jul 3, 2015
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They will rip their own hearts out, burrow in with a chainsaw, and pop it back in. Freewillers aren't wimps.
No, they just reject what Scripture says on the matter of salvation.

In Jesus' words: impossible with man, but possible with God.

In God's Words: according to His mercy and will, not according the desire, effort, or will of man.

I have updated this panel a little. Of course there are so many verses that it is not possible to include them all on one...

With the heart one believes. Free willers say it is with the wicked heart of the natural man.


Proverbs 28 verse 26~ “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool.” Jeremiah 17 verse 5a~ Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind. Jeremiah 17 verse 9~ The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? Ecclesiastes 7 verse 20~ “For there is not a just man upon the earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.” Matthew 7 verse 18~ “A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” John 6 verse 63b~ The flesh profits nothing. Philippians 2 verse 13~ “For it is God which worketh in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure.”
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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No, they just reject what Scripture says on the matter of salvation.

In Jesus' words: impossible with man, but possible with God.

In God's Words: according to His mercy and will, not according the desire, effort, or will of man.

I have updated this panel a little. Of course there are so many verses that it is not possible to include them all on one...


Proverbs 28 verse 26~ “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool.” Jeremiah 17 verse 5a~ Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind. Jeremiah 17 verse 9~ The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? Ecclesiastes 7 verse 20~ “For there is not a just man upon the earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.” Matthew 7 verse 18~ “A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” John 6 verse 63b~ The flesh profits nothing. Philippians 2 verse 13~ “For it is God which worketh in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure.”
Hmmm...I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I saw a couple of freewillers gnawing on their hearts earlier. But you're probably right.
 
Apr 24, 2025
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On the contrary, on the Hermeneutics thread we are conducting a systematic study of the doctrine of election with the expressed purpose of including and harmonizing all relevant Scripture supporting both sides, which is lacking here, so if you would like to participate there, please join us.

I just posted this on the website partly inspired by your posts: Human nature was created good but not perfect (Gen. 1:31), and Jesus had a human nature that was perfected during his earthly life (Heb. 5:8-9), which moral perfection should be every Christian’s lifelong goal (Phil. 3:12-15). Humans are born selfish but innocent babies until they attain the stage of moral accountability or conscience (normally about the stage of pre-pubescence), comparable to when Adam and Eve became aware it was wrong to eat from the forbidden tree (Gen. 2:17).
Paul was wrong
Huh? Jesus prayed for His Disciples and also for everyone who would believe through them. All true believers (the elect) become His
Disciples.
True. They only believe after hearing Disciples or Evangelism, because the Holy Spirit enters and allows them to understand the call to repentance.

You'll hear of those who say they came to repentance as a young child. There was a documentary years ago entitled, Jesus Camp.

Little children shown in all manner of emotion during services held by that camp group.

Were they all God's Elect? No.
No one comes to Jesus unless the father leads them .

Sure,some of those children could be of The Elect. But certain not every last one.
But they could certainly think they were.

Which is why Jesus said,warned,many are called. Few are (the) Chosen.

And as an aside, Jesus was fully human and fully imbued with Holy Spirit,God. He didn't learn to be righteous.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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But He prayed that their word would be believed. So He is first and foremost praying about the Disciples.
He already prayed for the disciples. He begins v20 by stating that He wasn't just praying for His disciples, but was also praying for others who would believe as a result of their ministry. Those who will be converted as a result of the efforts is the subject of the prayer.
 

lrs68

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2024
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Since no one is getting it due to their inerrant doctrine...the Father gave Yeshua the Disciples to carry on the work began by Yeshua so those who would later hear become believers.

So Yeshua is thanking the Father for giving Him the Disciples.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Everything in creation is His. The sheep that dont awnser are just as much His as the ones who dont. Im saying that when you are in the great white throne judgment you have no excuse for not trusting Jesus as your lord and savior. If God almighty made it impossible for you to hear or understand you do have and excuse.
Thats right. Repentance and judgment make no sense without real free will and choice.
And postulating that God is the ultimate chooser makes Him the ultimate villain.
 

lrs68

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2024
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He already prayed for the disciples. He begins v20 by stating that He wasn't just praying for His disciples, but was also praying for others who would believe as a result of their ministry. Those who will be converted as a result of the efforts is the subject of the prayer.
That's close to the post I just made #13,216 (y)
 

BillyBob

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Dec 20, 2023
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Texas
I guess I dont like it when it is implied God made the unbeliever not believe in Him.
The very purpose of Christ's parables was to instruct and enlighten some, and at the same time place a stumbling block in front of others. See Matt 13:10-15. Are we to proclaim that Christ was unfair, or admit that His ways are higher than ours.

We must fully trust His actions, and although we see dimly now, we will rejoice in the truth later!