The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

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S

studier

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HeIsHere said:
Are the commands for our benefit or for God's?
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Ours.

And if we view Him from the perspective of parenthood, then His also, so He can have less headaches from unruly children and can get on with the family business in creation in all its uninfected productivity and glory.
 
S

studier

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One outline fix.

So, how does it really work?

RE: Eternal Security
  1. Cannot lose salvation.
    1. Cannot walk away.
      1. No human choice
        1. Commands have no imperatival force.
        2. Obedience optional.
    2. Can walk away but cannot refuse repentance.
      1. No human choice
        1. Commands have no imperatival force.
        2. Obedience optional.
    3. Can walk away & can refuse repentance.
      1. Saved but disciplined unto death – lose rewards.
        1. No human choice re: salvation
          1. Commands have imperatival force - only if mean lose rewards.
          2. Obedience optional re: salvation.
      2. Never saved.
        1. Human choice
          1. Never believed.
          2. Commands have imperatival force.
            1. Disobedience
            2. Obedience is not optional.
        2. God knows before granting to Christ – Doesn’t grant.
          1. God does not grant unbelievers to Christ.
        3. Cannot lose salvation – because never saved.
        4. So, cannot know if saved until the end.
  2. Can lose salvation.
    1. Can and do walk away.
      1. Human choice
        1. Believe > Don’t believe.
        2. Saved > Lose salvation – because cannot lose what never had.
        3. Commands have imperatival force.
          1. Disobedience
          2. Obedience is not optional.
      2. God knows before granting to Christ – Grants
        1. God grants temporary believers to Christ.
      3. So, cannot know if saved until the end.
        1. Secure while obedient
    2. Can but do not walk away
      1. Human choice
        1. Believe > Believe.
        2. Commands have imperatival force.
          1. Obedience
          2. Obedience is not optional.
      2. God knows before granting to Christ – Grants
        1. God grants abiding believers to Christ.
      3. So, can or cannot know if saved until the end?
        1. Secure in obedience
 
S

studier

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HeIsHere said:
Well the book of Hebrews is an excellent book to tackle the accusation of "never saved to begin with" since it gives the dire warnings of falling away from the faith (not losing salvation).

I think the big concept of "once saved is saved" has to be settled before digging down into specific verses on the other ideas you raised in your long list.
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Agree. Hebrews is a good discussion. I'd like to read @Lamar & @mailmandan continue the course.

I actually am trying to get to the topic from another angle for a few reasons. I find a few things interesting about the bullet points and I'm open to pondering any modifications. It's just a basic bit of thinking and starting with Scripture goes nowhere and adds interpretive battles. There's obviously Scripture in the background of the outlined points.

One thing I find interesting is what it says (assuming correct) about human choice and God's commands. Can't lose salvation essentially negates both.

On the other hand, Never Saved and Can Lose Salvation are the ones that support both.

Then the only one that supports Security is Can Lose Salvation but Don't Walk Away, which supports human choice, God's commands, God's work in believers, and the believer's willing obedience functioning under Grace in Christ in Spirit. Why this willingly cooperative relationship with God in Christ with His Spirit is a problem for some if it has a Can Lose potential seems a problem to me.
 
I

Inquisitor

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HeIsHere said:
Saved is saved (spiritual)
The gift of eternal life (aionia life, quality of life) is not revocable.
God established a better covenant via the absolute and completed work of >>>> Christ Jesus

He is the all sufficient Savior.
I am not understanding why anyone who reads scripture would believe Christ Jesus is necessary by not sufficient?
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The new covenant has an underlying condition.

One must believe in Jesus to be forgiven and granted eternal life (Romans 10:9).

Stop believing and move into denial of Jesus then. the contract or covenant is cancelled.

You need to trust in Jesus and that trust must endure throughout your life.

Other words are used in the scripture to describe endurance.

Faithfulness, Steadfastness, Perseverance, Standing Firm, Following, etc.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
 
I

Inquisitor

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#1,825
studier said:
One outline fix.

So, how does it really work?

RE: Eternal Security
  1. Cannot lose salvation.
    1. Cannot walk away.
      1. No human choice
        1. Commands have no imperatival force.
        2. Obedience optional.
    2. Can walk away but cannot refuse repentance.
      1. No human choice
        1. Commands have no imperatival force.
        2. Obedience optional.
    3. Can walk away & can refuse repentance.
      1. Saved but disciplined unto death – lose rewards.
        1. No human choice re: salvation
          1. Commands have imperatival force - only if mean lose rewards.
          2. Obedience optional re: salvation.
      2. Never saved.
        1. Human choice
          1. Never believed.
          2. Commands have imperatival force.
            1. Disobedience
            2. Obedience is not optional.
        2. God knows before granting to Christ – Doesn’t grant.
          1. God does not grant unbelievers to Christ.
        3. Cannot lose salvation – because never saved.
        4. So, cannot know if saved until the end.
  2. Can lose salvation.
    1. Can and do walk away.
      1. Human choice
        1. Believe > Don’t believe.
        2. Saved > Lose salvation – because cannot lose what never had.
        3. Commands have imperatival force.
          1. Disobedience
          2. Obedience is not optional.
      2. God knows before granting to Christ – Grants
        1. God grants temporary believers to Christ.
      3. So, cannot know if saved until the end.
        1. Secure while obedient
    2. Can but do not walk away
      1. Human choice
        1. Believe > Believe.
        2. Commands have imperatival force.
          1. Obedience
          2. Obedience is not optional.
      2. God knows before granting to Christ – Grants
        1. God grants abiding believers to Christ.
      3. So, can or cannot know if saved until the end?
        1. Secure in obedience
Click to expand...
Secure in love is a better choice because the outcome is written in gold.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment,
and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
 
I

Inquisitor

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#1,827
studier said:
Agree. Hebrews is a good discussion. I'd like to read @Lamar & @mailmandan continue the course.

I actually am trying to get to the topic from another angle for a few reasons. I find a few things interesting about the bullet points and I'm open to pondering any modifications. It's just a basic bit of thinking and starting with Scripture goes nowhere and adds interpretive battles. There's obviously Scripture in the background of the outlined points.

One thing I find interesting is what it says (assuming correct) about human choice and God's commands. Can't lose salvation essentially negates both.

On the other hand, Never Saved and Can Lose Salvation are the ones that support both.

Then the only one that supports Security is Can Lose Salvation but Don't Walk Away, which supports human choice, God's commands, God's work in believers, and the believer's willing obedience functioning under Grace in Christ in Spirit. Why this willingly cooperative relationship with God in Christ with His Spirit is a problem for some if it has a Can Lose potential seems a problem to me.
Click to expand...
You have arrived at ground zero in Christianity.

It's just a basic bit of thinking and starting with Scripture goes nowhere and adds interpretive battles.

Everyone follows a specific interpretation which you have noticed; so different verses. In the scripture
have more power that others, and that is what an interpretation is.
 
S

studier

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#1,828
Inquisitor said:
You have arrived at ground zero in Christianity.

It's just a basic bit of thinking and starting with Scripture goes nowhere and adds interpretive battles.

Everyone follows a specific interpretation which you have noticed; so different verses. In the scripture
have more power that others, and that is what an interpretation is.
Click to expand...
ground zero - where battles explode?
 
I

Inquisitor

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#1,829
studier said:
Better than "Eternal Security" you mean?
Click to expand...
The idea of eternal security is not clearly stated in the N.T. without love.

Love is the goal of all Christian instruction.

1 Timothy 1:5
But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

That love for others is the guarantee of eternal security.

Go ahead and hold to eternal security without generating the fruit of the Holy Spirit and see what happens.

1 John 4:7-8
Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God
and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

No unity in Christianity without love.

Colossians 3:14
And over all these virtues put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity.
 
I

Inquisitor

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studier said:
ground zero - where battles explode?
Click to expand...
You have noticed these interpretations that different church organizations enforce.

Even the strongest Christians in certain threads will name call.

Christian Forums can be brutal.

If you do not conform to my interpretation your going to hell.
 
I

Inquisitor

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#1,831
studier said:
Better than "Eternal Security" you mean?
Click to expand...
Exerting love is a far better and safer option than holding to an idea (eternal security).

Because the idea of eternal security involves an interpretation.

To believe that your behaviour (fruit) has no impact on your salvation, is a dangerous path to tread.

Given that holiness, faithfulness, endurance, are mentioned so often.
 
S

studier

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#1,832
Inquisitor said:
Exerting love is a far better and safer option than holding to an idea (eternal security).

Because the idea of eternal security involves an interpretation.

To believe that your behaviour (fruit) has no impact on your salvation, is a dangerous path to tread.

Given that holiness, faithfulness, endurance, are mentioned so often.
Click to expand...
Agree. Just trying to flush out with this much argued idea actually includes.
 
E

EddieM

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You cannot become a Christian and then a year later start following Satan.

The guy in 1 Cor. 5 was sleeping with his step mother. Paul told the Corinthians to turn him over to Satan, but he is still saved.
 
BillG

BillG

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Inquisitor said:
The new covenant has an underlying condition.

One must believe in Jesus to be forgiven and granted eternal life (Romans 10:9).

Stop believing and move into denial of Jesus then. the contract or covenant is cancelled.

You need to trust in Jesus and that trust must endure throughout your life.

Other words are used in the scripture to describe endurance.

Faithfulness, Steadfastness, Perseverance, Standing Firm, Following, etc.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Click to expand...
Does believeing in Jesus or on Jesus save you?
I know many who believe Jesus was a real person but dont believe he died and rose again.
 
I

Inquisitor

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BillG said:
Does believeing in Jesus or on Jesus save you?
I know many who believe Jesus was a real person but dont believe he died and rose again.
Click to expand...
Romans 10:9-10.

That is an isolated verse which is true but does not represent the entire instruction in the N.T.

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
 
BillG

BillG

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Inquisitor said:
Romans 10:9-10.

That is an isolated verse which is true but does not represent the entire instruction in the N.T.

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Click to expand...
Can you answer the questions please.
 
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