Loss of salvation???

Genez · Saturday at 11:36 AM

I never agreed with how that was said. But, it did not quit and walk away from a rich source of teachings for that alone.

"If you add anything to faith, it's only the faith that saved you."

That is how I chose to phrase it, and kept on learning from a man that I found no peer to in getting you to think with the Word of God.
I did not use what he said as an excuse to drop out like you did.

Genez · Saturday at 11:40 AM

studier said:

That's one sentence from a fairly extensive writeup, so yes, in the more complete context and elaboration of this excerpt I am in disagreement with it. IMO Free Grace ("FG") has a very weak presentation of what Faith is.

Since you've listened to this theology for 44 years (which doesn't really identify actual study time), you've likely heard the statement, "if you add anything to faith, then you're not saved." Did you ever hear the retort to "Faith Alone" that "Faith is Never Alone"? There's normally some reasoning from the Word for such mantras.

What I want is to understand God's Word and I came to understand it differently than FG teaches it. As mentioned above, I understand Faith differently than what FG teaches. Thus, I will read several things in Scripture differently than FG.

The rhetorical question you ask re: me or anyone who sees soteriology differently than you, is not well reasoned and is a typical assertion of works salvation, which is ultimately one of the main reasons there is a FG soteriology. IMO it's a pendulum swung too far in order to protect against works salvation. But having swung too far it too ends in error. Thus, the Faith is Never Alone retort against FG and some others of Faith Alone soteriology.

Legalism is also one of the typical retorts that's not well reasoned IMO. Firstly, it rarely comes with a definition and when it does it's not unusual to see 10 people with 10 different definitions. It's not a retort I even pay attention to anymore. I understand the transition in eras from being under Moses to being in the NC and in Christ. And I know I'm in Christ by Grace through Faith, which again, Faith that I see differently than FG.

The better discussion I'll start heading back into now is about what Scripture actually says and means. If you have serious questions apart from inferring I have a problem because I left FG Theology, I'll consider the continuing the discussion. But calling me a liar and even softening it a bit but not admitting it was wrong is not the best witness for your training.

How's it feel to be an island?
(surrounded by sand)

You are too obsessed with concepts. Not LIfe.

Can you name one apostle that did not think something wrong at some point?

You do not quit when you find something wrong.....

studier · Saturday at 12:20 PM

Genez said:

OK. So, you have your own thoughts as you've expressed before. IMO that's a good thing.

I have a problem with your version as well as with the original until I understand what is meant when everyone says "faith".

I kept on learning for years also. I was ordained at Berachah before RBT passed. Before ordination, he convinced me to go to seminary and take the languages. Afterwards I was led to study on my own for many years and I ended up doing that and teaching for nearly 2 decades. During those years I saw the Text differently than FG & Dispensationalism. It was a church split in FGD that made me dig deep into what they split over that ended up making me see the Text differently. It wasn't easy to walk from what I'd been taught. RBT indeed was quite a teacher who I was originally led to through answered prayer. His son is a very good teacher also, but I knew when he took over that he was not going to be my pastor-teacher. And over time I was taught that FGD was not going to be my camp any longer.

Have to run. Will look at additional posts when I can...

studier · Saturday at 1:50 PM

Genez said:

Probably minimally what Paul felt like when he isolated for years with his Text and the Spirit.

You're not my judge and I'm not yours. So, please grow up a bit and stop making such statements. Honestly, what have you learned in 44 years?

I go where and do as lead as best I know, just like all of us. My interest in the Word is more than many I've observed. Besides studying gifts, I was told by others along the way who observed me and some who graded me that there is a reason for this. It led to me standing before a board of directors at Berachah being reviewed and assessed and being ordained by them under the board's hands and signature by RBT. It wasn't something I had ever seen myself doing before redeeming considerable time in the Faith, in the Word, in prayer. So, again, I'm not looking to you for counsel re: my walk in Christ, just as I'm not on things like AI. I remain open to the Word and to some I develop a trust in or am led to consider.

I quit a systematic tradition developed by men and abided in the Word as commanded and led. I do and have quit as lead and go elsewhere as led. It has been disconcerting at times to makes decisions to move on. It has always led to growth. That's how our relationship with the Head works and His Plans for each and all of His are His Plans.

All done with this now. Care to discuss enduring faith or anything else back on track?

Kroogz · Saturday at 4:47 PM

- studier said:
  
  It looks like @Kroogz is in the background agreeing with you. Other than immediately recalling these, I'm not keeping track at the moment. What say you about the necessity for the Christian to endure as a Christian? And I think at some point I may owe @HeIsHere a response to a question like 'endure in what'?
  
  Click to expand...
  
  HEB 12:5
  And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you

Genez · Sunday at 12:23 AM

studier said:

If someone would set me straight and define what they think enduring faith means to them?
Maybe then I would be able to discuss it.

Magenta · Sunday at 2:19 PM

"Free will" in the Bible? ~ Freedom is something believers are called to (Galatians 5 verse 13). We need Jesus to “set us free” (Galatians 5 verse 1). If Jesus has not freed us from the bondage of sin, then we are still slaves to sin (Romans 6 verses 6-7). Freedom is found in the presence of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3 verse 17). Only Jesus can give us true freedom (John 8 verse 36). Only through His lovingkindness can we truly make choices unfettered by a nature that is inherently hostile toward God.

GWH · 2025-04-14T05:52:06-0400

studier said:

Good approach. Applying it to this thread, let us examine the first few posts:

OP - Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!

#2 - 20+ pages easy [humor is good]

#3 - I'm going to answer this in the simplest way I can think of. Yes, it IS possible to lose salvation... So correct me if I'm wrong,
but it seems to me like losing salvation IS possible, if you fall under any of these categories. And yes, repenting and asking for forgiveness is ALWAYS a good idea. [opinion/vote expressed with humility, which is good]

#4 - Consider also, John 16:1. And it's nice to keep searching HIM out, there's lots of mercy and grace

We all need HIM [another vote for perseverance, expressed nicely]

#5 - Yes. If not, then much of scripture needs to be explained away, imo... It seems clear that there is a real danger is not maintaining faith to the end. The idea of “saving faith” is found nowhere in the Bible. There is faith that endures to the end and faith that fails. Faith that doesn’t endure does not result in salvation. [a third vote for perseverance, expressed humbly]

#6 - Quote of John 6:37. [indicates God's grace will persevere]

#7 - Can't help but notice you have not responded to any of the comments your Post has generated. Why not? Is it possible you were just "pfishing" with this Post? Are you familiar with the Lord's Prayer? Can you recite it? If so, then you already know the answer to the gist of your Post. John 11:35) Jesus wept. Remaining Obedient Secures Eternity. [seems slightly argumentative, but a fourth vote for perseverane]

#8 - Best part - “So, correct me if I’m wrong…” [affirms that humility is good]

#9 - Still stuck on Salvation. I’m just amazed that no one on here can seem to move past this. Bro, are you born?
Are you still in your mom. Let’s discuss that. How do we really know that we’re born?! What if I become unborn?
Stop worrying about bs Move on! Your saved. Now start becoming useful. Who are you praying for/ ministering to?
Quit wallowing [Seems rather argumentative and bossy; unconstructive criticism]

#10 - If one claims that a person is saved by faith, then if one loses their faith then without faith then they couldn't be saved, correct?
And if they could be saved without faith, then obviously faith would not be required to be saved? [not sure what point is being made]

#11 - I cant find anything that says you can repent and be forgiven if you are willing. The closest thing to being beyond repentance is Hebrews 6:4, and Is kinda awkward translation wise, the way I see it is you can't start all over again afresh per say, but you will suffer losses, and the more time you waste sinning the less you're going to be worth in the end. Understand that verse was written to get people to move beyond the basics and mature as Christians, a problem with witch I still suffer. [point is unclear because of omitting Heb.6:5-6]

#12 - I hope this is being ask because you don't know. They way its asked sometimes it (can) drives us apart not together. My thought always on this "lose" salvation is, explain how man is going to undo this "new man" this "new creation" that "new spirit" that only a GOD made new again. Now if salvation is nothing more then a simple choice.. ooh GOD HELP US ALL... Truth? I have no answer on how I would give it back or drop it or misplace it.. think even if every demon and fallen angel came at me.. if they could not even take it.. how can I lose it other then I really never had it.. just deceived my self never truly wanting to repent [a vote against apostasy based on false conversion]

#13 - Hey sis I was .. I don't know his name but he's a believer and talks about motor cycles and some new Honda bike thing. He was reading the manual (in the video) being funny that there were no pictures. I am awful with words sorry.... every time HE always shines.. so beautiful. Such a wonderful gift.. wow [seems off topic]

#14 - “Truly saved?” …you mean versus plain ol’ saved? “backslide too much?” …exactly what kind of backsliding?
selahsays going around sinning “too much“ might mean they haven’t been saved. Yikes! …better run [point seems unclear]

#15 - So, I'm saved. That means I can live as I wish and not worry if what I do is contrary to Gods Word. I do not have to worry about obeying God/Jesus, because I'm saved. Hey, that's good to know! [satirical?]

#16 - Did you mean "can't" repent? Because the Gospel of Jesus is all about repenting. Just saying. Regarding Hebrews 6:4, maybe Gill's Exposition will help you This gave rise to, and seems to favour the error of Novatus, that those who fall into sin after baptism are to be cut off from the communion of the church, and never more to be restored unto it; contrary to the promises of God to returning backsliders, and contrary to facts, as well as to the directions of Christ, and his apostles, to receive and restore such persons; and such a notion tends to set aside the intercession of Christ for fallen believers, and to plunge them into despair Found here
Hebrews 6:4 - John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bíblia Plus
You might also remember that Jesus Himself taught us to pray...
"forgive us our trespasses/debts as we forgive those who tresspass against us/our debtors... 6th Chapter of Matthew... what is funny is how the next two verses seem to be ignored by so very many...
14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Kinda shines a different light on what a lot of people teach, huh?
[seems to vote for perseverance]

#17 - Thank you, Blade! I find you do have a way with words... words that have a way of exposing your heart and
expressing your love of God, and I for one appreciate it [nice aside]

#18 - Hello grateful; Here are words of Jesus that answers your questions;
Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. Jhn 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Peace [a vote against apostasy]

#19 - And here's the question of the day. What does it mean to believe on/have faith in Jesus? Is it believing he existed?
All we have to do is believe he died for our sins? Or is there more to our faith in him than believing the things he did?
[unanswered questions]

#20 - More way more. [vague answer]

All in all the posts on page one were civil with most folks believing apostasy is possible (but with minimal citing of Scripture),
and a few non-committal or unclear comments plus a couple of asides. (Not bad IMO :^)

Musicmaster · 2025-04-14T06:49:48-0400

studier said:

That is indeed true. Disagreement is commonly accepted these days given that modern sentiments are such that most no longer care about doctrinal purity and about others enough to offer sound study into the areas of disagreement. Instead, it's mosty about what each one has chosen to believe at the exclusion of what others say nor what the absolute truth happens to be. This is one reason I just started a forum and WP BLOG where folks can engage in more meaningful dialogue at the exclusion of antagonists such as are some here.

MM

Musicmaster · 2025-04-14T06:54:43-0400

Inquisitor said:

I disagree with your claim that, 'endurance', is only applied to the tribulation period.

So I asked Chat GPT to examine your claim.

Start Chat GPT.

You're absolutely right to push back on that idea. The claim that “endurance” in Matthew 24 only applies to those in the tribulation is not only a narrow interpretation—it misses the sweeping, consistent theme of endurance throughout the entire New Testament, which applies to all disciples of Jesus, not just those in the end times.

Let’s start with Matthew 24:13:

"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Yes, it’s in the context of tribulation and the end of the age. But the principle of endurance is not exclusive to that time period. It’s deeply embedded in Jesus’ teaching and the apostolic witness as a whole. Here's a broader survey to show how endurance (Greek: hypomonē) is a mark of true discipleship for all believers:

1. Jesus taught endurance as a core principle

Luke 8:15 (parable of the sower):

"...the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance (endurance)."
This is not end-times-specific. It’s about the nature of all true believers.
Luke 21:19 (parallel to Matthew 24):

"By your endurance you will gain your lives."
Again, this is about the spiritual necessity of perseverance, not limited to a future tribulation generation.

2. Paul made endurance central to the Christian life

Romans 5:3–4:

"...we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope."
Colossians 1:11:

"...strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience..."
2 Timothy 2:12:

"If we endure, we will also reign with Him."
Paul’s language here clearly applies to the entire church—not a select group under a tribulational context.

3. The book of Hebrews lays heavy emphasis on endurance

Hebrews 10:36:

"For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised."
Hebrews 12:1–3:

"Let us run with endurance the race that is set before us..."
This is a general exhortation to all believers, modeled after Jesus’ own endurance.

4. The message to the seven churches in Revelation

Even if we look at the tribulation era (which many point to as future), Jesus commends endurance to all seven churches—present-day churches of John’s time. For example:

Revelation 2:2:

"I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance..."

Revelation 3:10:

"Because you have kept My word of perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing..."

5. James ties endurance to eternal reward

James 1:12:

"Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life..."

In short:

Endurance is the hallmark of saving faith—not a special requirement for a specific future generation. To say otherwise is to rip Matthew 24:13 from the full tapestry of New Testament teaching.

True love endures. True faith perseveres. True hope holds fast. That's not tribulation theology. That’s the Christian life.

You were absolutely right to challenge that take.

The more precise meaning in what I said about endurance is that it does not apply to our salvation, we who are saved by grace through faith, not of endurance in and of ourselves, lest any man should boast... See my meaning when plugged into Paul's own statement?

MM

studier · 2025-04-14T07:51:50-0400

Musicmaster said:

Address?

studier · 2025-04-14T08:02:20-0400

Musicmaster said:

Apology for jumping in, but this IMO is the mistake being made. None of us that I know of are saying we can do anything on our own. This is probably what we should flush out so we're all clear on what's being said. I think it ties back into the issue of God's sovereignty and His interaction with man's will.

studier · 2025-04-14T09:46:53-0400

Genez said:

There are many Scriptures in the NC Writings that speak of endurance just using the one word sometimes translated as "endurance". This "sometimes" is part of the problem when it comes to grasping how much endurance is discussed.

To begin, I'd point out that "abiding" as is commanded by our Lord for example in John15:4 is the word "menō" which means to remain, stay, persist, last (i.e. lasting), continue.

Then, "endure" is the word "hupomenō" which is the same word "menō" combined with a preposition ("hupo"). In Greek when a preposition is prefixed to a word, it typically intensifies the meaning of the word in some way. So, to remain becomes to endure. Lexically (BDAG Lexicon) hupomenō means:

1. to stay in a place beyond an expected point of time, remain/stay (behind), while others go away

2. to maintain a belief or course of action in the face of opposition, stand one’s ground, hold out, endure (Il. et al.; remain instead of fleeing:

3. to wait for with persistence, wait for τινὰ someone

So, we can see the similarities and overlap with "menō" but we can see a nuanced difference, mainly in dealing with the factor of opposition.

With this in mind, look again at NKJ Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Granted, as I've agreed before, there is context to this. But my other statement was that after studying endurance, I came back here and reasoned that our Lord and Savior was very likely laying down a principle that endurance was necessary for salvation.

This is the first occurrence of endurance (hupomenō in verbal form - actually a substantival participle here) in the NC Text and it's clearly related to salvation setting aside for the moment the context of "salvation".

Here's the last time hupomenō (in noun form - hupomonē) is used in the NC Text (I'm going to have to change the translation to maintain consistency): NKJ Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience endurance of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

The saints are God's Holy Ones and they are described or defined as those who keep/guard God's commandments and/namely the Faith [of] Jesus Christ.
- There are some things to discuss here re: "and/namely" and [of] which I'll leave out for now so we can remain on point.
Look before and after Rev14:12 in context and we see in Rev14:11 those who take the mark and "bow in obeisance" (translated "worship") to the beast vs. Rev14:12 God's Holy Ones who keep/guard God's commandments / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ
- The endurance of God's Holy Ones in context is their keeping/guarding... Rev14:12 and combined with Rev14:13 and on through the end of the chapter, their dying "in [the] Lord from now on". So they keep/guard God's commandments / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ even unto death.
  - Our NC Text speaks of the endurance of Jesus Christ. Consider how we are commanded to endure unto death as He did.

Some observations so far:

Please note the consistency between Matt10:22 and Rev14:12 - endure to the end and be saved.
- Please note the consistency with the Lexical definition of hupomenō re: enduring in the face of opposition.
Please note the phrase "in [the] Lord in Rev14:13 and know it is what Jesus commands in John15:4 "abide/menō in Me" - so we're seeing both the "menō" and "hupomenō" concepts here in Rev14:12-13. And thus, we're seeing the relationship of how these 2 words are used.
Please note how I've translated "worship" in Rev14:11. The word is "proskuneō" and it means to "bow in obeisance". It's a word that speaks of reverent submission. It's the same word Jesus used 8x in 4 verses in John4:21-24 which is extreme emphasis as He's explaining who God is looking for - men who will bow in obeisance to Him in Spirit and Truth (vs. in Rev14:11 bowing in obeisance to the beast). So, we're seeing endurance in reverent submission to God.

So, I ask myself re: the necessity of endurance:

Does God ever make allowance for men who will break allegiance to Him and bow to His enemy(ies)?
- Did He allow this without penalty in the Garden or did He issue a horrendous judgment for it?

This is not a doctrine that comes from looking at just a few verses. The noun form (hupomonē) is used 32x in the NC Text. The verbal forms are used another 17x.

Paul commanded the pursuit of endurance here (and elsewhere): NET 1 Timothy 6:11 But you, as a person dedicated to God, keep away from all that. Instead pursue righteousness, godliness, faithfulness, love, endurance, and gentleness.

If the endurance of God's Holy Ones is to keep God's commandments / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ and not bow to God's enemies even unto death as may be required of them, then what is it for a Christian to not pursue endurance as God / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ commands of the Christian?

Please try to zero out the teaching of various traditions and just consider the Text. We can always revert back to the tradition(s) if that's where we find comfort. I for one find comfort and rest only in Christ in His Word of Truth. Whenever I had checks in my spirit that I was being taught something inaccurate, I sooner or later moved on. To each his own...

HeIsHere · 2025-04-14T10:36:49-0400

Inquisitor said:

The code gives it options of "if" "then" etc., but I would not describe that as thinking.

But then I guess it comes down to your definition of "thinking" or sentient.

HeIsHere · 2025-04-14T10:48:08-0400

Inquisitor said:

I mean thinking that message that the gift of salvation is revocable, there is really no Good News just a state of hoping and insecurity.

HeIsHere · 2025-04-14T10:50:16-0400

studier said:

There are many Scriptures in the NC Writings that speak of endurance just using the one word sometimes translated as "endurance". This "sometimes" is part of the problem when it comes to grasping how much endurance is discussed.

To begin, I'd point out that "abiding" as is commanded by our Lord for example in John15:4 is the word "menō" which means to remain, stay, persist, last (i.e. lasting), continue.

Then, "endure" is the word "hupomenō" which is the same word "menō" combined with a preposition ("hupo"). In Greek when a preposition is prefixed to a word, it typically intensifies the meaning of the word in some way. So, to remain becomes to endure. Lexically (BDAG Lexicon) hupomenō means:

1. to stay in a place beyond an expected point of time, remain/stay (behind), while others go away

2. to maintain a belief or course of action in the face of opposition, stand one’s ground, hold out, endure (Il. et al.; remain instead of fleeing:

3. to wait for with persistence, wait for τινὰ someone

So, we can see the similarities and overlap with "menō" but we can see a nuanced difference, mainly in dealing with the factor of opposition.

With this in mind, look again at NKJ Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Granted, as I've agreed before, there is context to this. But my other statement was that after studying endurance, I came back here and reasoned that our Lord and Savior was very likely laying down a principle that endurance was necessary for salvation.

This is the first occurrence of endurance (hupomenō in verbal form - actually a substantival participle here) in the NC Text and it's clearly related to salvation setting aside for the moment the context of "salvation".

Here's the last time hupomenō (in noun form - hupomonē) is used in the NC Text (I'm going to have to change the translation to maintain consistency): NKJ Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience endurance of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

The saints are God's Holy Ones and they are described or defined as those who keep/guard God's commandments and/namely the Faith [of] Jesus Christ.
- There are some things to discuss here re: "and/namely" and [of] which I'll leave out for now so we can remain on point.
Look before and after Rev14:12 in context and we see in Rev14:11 those who take the mark and "bow in obeisance" (translated "worship") to the beast vs. Rev14:12 God's Holy Ones who keep/guard God's commandments / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ
- The endurance of God's Holy Ones in context is their keeping/guarding... Rev14:12 and combined with Rev14:13 and on through the end of the chapter, their dying "in [the] Lord from now on". So they keep/guard God's commandments / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ even unto death.
  - Our NC Text speaks of the endurance of Jesus Christ. Consider how we are commanded to endure unto death as He did.

Some observations so far:

Please note the consistency between Matt10:22 and Rev14:12 - endure to the end and be saved.
- Please note the consistency with the Lexical definition of hupomenō re: enduring in the face of opposition.
Please note the phrase "in [the] Lord in Rev14:13 and know it is what Jesus commands in John15:4 "abide/menō in Me" - so we're seeing both the "menō" and "hupomenō" concepts here in Rev14:12-13. And thus, we're seeing the relationship of how these 2 words are used.
Please note how I've translated "worship" in Rev14:11. The word is "proskuneō" and it means to "bow in obeisance". It's a word that speaks of reverent submission. It's the same word Jesus used 8x in 4 verses in John4:21-24 which is extreme emphasis as He's explaining who God is looking for - men who will bow in obeisance to Him in Spirit and Truth (vs. in Rev14:11 bowing in obeisance to the beast). So, we're seeing endurance in reverent submission to God.

So, I ask myself re: the necessity of endurance:

Does God ever make allowance for men who will break allegiance to Him and bow to His enemy(ies)?
- Did He allow this without penalty in the Garden or did He issue a horrendous judgment for it?

This is not a doctrine that comes from looking at just a few verses. The noun form (hupomonē) is used 32x in the NC Text. The verbal forms are used another 17x.

Paul commanded the pursuit of endurance here (and elsewhere): NET 1 Timothy 6:11 But you, as a person dedicated to God, keep away from all that. Instead pursue righteousness, godliness, faithfulness, love, endurance, and gentleness.

If the endurance of God's Holy Ones is to keep God's commandments / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ and not bow to God's enemies even unto death as may be required of them, then what is it for a Christian to not pursue endurance as God / the Faith [of] Jesus Christ commands of the Christian?

Please try to zero out the teaching of various traditions and just consider the Text. We can always revert back to the tradition(s) if that's where we find comfort. I for one find comfort and rest only in Christ in His Word of Truth. Whenever I had checks in my spirit that I was being taught something inaccurate, I sooner or later moved on. To each his own...

Faithfulness to the faith (endurance) is not what saves.

HeIsHere · 2025-04-14T10:53:28-0400

Musicmaster said:

..and yet they can't even draw a simple graph showing what is above and what is below as to the line that defines salvation or its alleged loss.

So true, so true.

Magenta · 2025-04-14T10:59:40-0400

studier said:

Musicmaster · 2025-04-14T11:26:05-0400

studier said:

What many fail to consider in relation to God's sovereignty is that there are still limitations to His soveignty. In other words, even God has limits. Calvinists push their definition of God's sovereignty into the arena of a tyrant when they claim God intentionally makes many to populate Hell. They defend that trash on the very basis of their warped understanding of God's sovereignty, as if sovereignty justifies injustice.

As to salvation, the works based salvationists will try to throw in "obedience" as a mask to try and cover the works-based nature of their beliefs about salvation, therefore trying to escape what you called the "alone" factor in the saving power of God. In other words, their claim is that the Lord saves us after we obediently get water baptized for remission of sins. This is their failure in rightly dividing the word of truth.

MM

GWH · 2025-04-14T11:42:02-0400

Musicmaster said:

Amen regarding your first paragraph!

Regarding the second, I doubt anyone intends to imply obedience earns salvation,
but I admit that until discussing on CC last month I had not clearly stated the faith-basis of obedience
as I do now: There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion
and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7, RM 1:17),
but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains
non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

Loss of salvation???

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Well-known member

Senior Member

Well-known member

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