John 3 and Water Baptism in the Ministry of Jesus Christ

[hornetguy]

Further, Ephesians 2:8 teaches that we are saved by grace through faith.

We are saved because of our faith and belief, which includes obedience to God's command to be baptized. Thus we are saved. The reality of salvation is allowed us only through God's grace... the un-merited favor... we don't/can't earn it.... salvation is given to us by God.... so, we ARE saved because of God's gracious gift, when we hear and believe, and obey.

Just as @Wansvic so wonderfully explained.... look at the examples of Naaman obeying by washing 7 times in the Jordan, or the walls of Jericho coming down because of obedience to God's command...... obedience to God is necessary to achieve the "cleansing" of the free gift of salvation.

 

[Cameron143]

It is your belief that the people at Pentecost were baptized in the Spirit when they heard and believed, "coming to faith"?

If that is your belief, why would Peter tell them to repent (turn away from their sins) and be baptized, whereupon they would receive the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit?

I don't see any of the conversion stories that indicate that all that was needed was hearing, belief, and accepting the gift of salvation. They always included baptism. Since there is, scripturally, only one baptism, and we are commanded to be water baptized (per Peter and others) we HAVE to conclude that the "new" baptism that Jesus brought us was a water baptism combined with the spiritual baptism into the body of believers.

Good question. There is a difference between being baptized BY the Spirit which places an individual into the body of Christ as per 1 Corinthians 12:13 and the baptism WITH the Spirit spoken of in a multitude of places, including Matthew 3:11, Joel 2:28 which Peter quotes the day of Pentecost, Acts 1 which is also called the promise of the Father. If you would like to explore these 2 different administrations of the Spirit, I'm happy to have that discussion. But here's a question for you: do you believe that the disciples of Jesus were unsaved on the day of Pentecost before the cloves of fire rested upon them?

 

[Inquisitor]

Much has been said about the importance of water baptism in the ministry of John the Baptist but Jesus during His earthly ministry baptized even more through His own disciples.

John 3:22-26
After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized. Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized. For John had not yet been thrown into prison.

Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”

It seems that the people were coming to Jesus for water baptism and He did not turn them away.

John 4:1-2
Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples),

It seems clear that Jesus was a advocate for water baptism as much if not more than John the Baptist.


It appears that the ministries of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ were woven together by water baptism early on:

John 1:32-34
And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”

Regardless of what we may personally believe about the purpose of water baptism (sign or essential) Jesus certainly was a proponent.
Can we at least agree on this?

Here is what Chat GPT had to say on this topic.

You're bringing up a deep and important question about the nature of baptism in the New Testament.
Let’s break it down step by step using only the New Testament.

1. John the Baptist vs. Jesus' Baptism

John the Baptist baptized with water for repentance (Matt. 3:11, Mark 1:4).
John himself said that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire (Matt. 3:11, Luke 3:16).
This distinction suggests that John's water baptism was preparatory, but Jesus' baptism was something greater.

2. Jesus Did Not Baptize with Water

John 3:22-26 mentions Jesus' disciples baptizing, but John 4:2 clarifies that Jesus Himself did not baptize anyone with water.
This suggests Jesus' focus was on a different kind of baptism—one that would come through the Spirit.

3. Baptism in Mark for Salvation?

Mark 16:16 (a debated passage) says: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
However, baptism is not the focus of condemnation—unbelief is.
The question remains: Is this baptism referring to water or Spirit?

4. One Baptism in Ephesians 4:5

Paul writes: "One Lord, one faith, one baptism."
If water baptism and Spirit baptism were separate requirements, Paul likely would have mentioned both.
This suggests that one baptism matters—but which one?

5. Paul Downplays Water Baptism

In 1 Corinthians 1:14-17, Paul thanks God that he baptized only a few people, saying:
"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel."
If water baptism were necessary for salvation, why would Paul say this?

6. Spirit Baptism in Acts

In Acts 1:5, Jesus says:
"John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
This happens at Pentecost (Acts 2), fulfilling what John the Baptist had prophesied.
In Acts 10:44-48, the Holy Spirit falls on Cornelius' household before they are baptized with water,
showing that Spirit baptism is what truly matters.

7. Forgiveness of Sins—Water or Spirit?

Acts 2:38: "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Is this water baptism, or is it about being immersed into Christ through the Spirit?
Titus 3:5 says: "He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."
This suggests that Spirit baptism is the true cleansing.

Spirit Baptism Matters Most

Jesus fulfilled and replaced John's water baptism with Spirit baptism. Water baptism was an outward sign,
but Spirit baptism is what actually saves and transforms. Paul’s writings emphasize faith in Christ and being
baptized into His Spirit, not merely into water (Rom. 6:3-4, Gal. 3:27). The early church baptized with water,
but the overwhelming emphasis is that it is the Spirit that gives life (John 6:63).

 

[Cameron143]

We are saved because of our faith and belief, which includes obedience to God's command to be baptized. Thus we are saved. The reality of salvation is allowed us only through God's grace... the un-merited favor... we don't/can't earn it.... salvation is given to us by God.... so, we ARE saved because of God's gracious gift, when we hear and believe, and obey.

Just as @Wansvic so wonderfully explained.... look at the examples of Naaman obeying by washing 7 times in the Jordan, or the walls of Jericho coming down because of obedience to God's command...... obedience to God is necessary to achieve the "cleansing" of the free gift of salvation.

That's incorrect. Which comes first: belief or action? Do we believe what we do or do what we believe?

Belief always precedes actions. That's why Jesus said the work of God is to believe and not to obey. What have you done that you first did then later believed?
Those individuals in Acts didn't believe what Peter said, but asked what they could do? They didn't believe Peter but did what he said to do anyways? That is logical to you?

Let's try that out. You should place your hand on a hot stove. It will feel nice. Let me know whether you did it or not, and why.

 

[Lamar]

Sure, let's stick with scripture and follow proper hermeneutics. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 20:21; 26:18) *Perfect Harmony*

mailmandan: Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Scripture:

Acts 2:38
Peter answered them, “All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

There is no "Perfect Harmony" between your theology and scripture.

 

[mailmandan]

mailmandan: Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Scripture:

Acts 2:38
Peter answered them, “All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

There is no "Perfect Harmony" between your theology and scripture.

Sure there is. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

Like I said before. "Perfect Harmony."

 

[hornetguy]

Good question. There is a difference between being baptized BY the Spirit which places an individual into the body of Christ as per 1 Corinthians 12:13 and the baptism WITH the Spirit spoken of in a multitude of places, including Matthew 3:11, Joel 2:28 which Peter quotes the day of Pentecost, Acts 1 which is also called the promise of the Father. If you would like to explore these 2 different administrations of the Spirit, I'm happy to have that discussion. But here's a question for you: do you believe that the disciples of Jesus were unsaved on the day of Pentecost before the cloves of fire rested upon them?

No I do not. There is no reason to believe that. There is also no reason to think that they had not already been baptized, since that is what Jesus was teaching. I believe that what happened in that room was the special miraculous indwelling of the Spirit, with the sound of a mighty wind, and the tongues of fire.... this event was the disciples being given the power to speak in tongues later that day, so that everyone understood them in their own language.

Otherwise, why do we not hear the mighty wind and have tongues of fire appear on ALL those who claim to have received the same miraculous indwelling, such as at the Azusa street "event" that kicked off the Pentecostal movement?

 

[hornetguy]

That's incorrect. Which comes first: belief or action? Do we believe what we do or do what we believe?

Belief always precedes actions. That's why Jesus said the work of God is to believe and not to obey. What have you done that you first did then later believed?
Those individuals in Acts didn't believe what Peter said, but asked what they could do? They didn't believe Peter but did what he said to do anyways? That is logical to you?

Let's try that out. You should place your hand on a hot stove. It will feel nice. Let me know whether you did it or not, and why.

You are sort of twisting things about.... we hear, are convicted in our hearts, believe in Jesus, and obey the command to be baptized. All of that is the event of being added to Christ's body of believers. Exactly the same way it happened at Pentecost.

 

[Cameron143]

No I do not. There is no reason to believe that. There is also no reason to think that they had not already been baptized, since that is what Jesus was teaching. I believe that what happened in that room was the special miraculous indwelling of the Spirit, with the sound of a mighty wind, and the tongues of fire.... this event was the disciples being given the power to speak in tongues later that day, so that everyone understood them in their own language.

Otherwise, why do we not hear the mighty wind and have tongues of fire appear on ALL those who claim to have received the same miraculous indwelling, such as at the Azusa street "event" that kicked off the Pentecostal movement?

There is no scripture that says what happened at Pentecost was an indwelling. Every evidence is a physical manifestation of the Spirit. The Spirit acted upon them; not in them.

 

[Cameron143]

You are sort of twisting things about.... we hear, are convicted in our hearts, believe in Jesus, and obey the command to be baptized. All of that is the event of being added to Christ's body of believers. Exactly the same way it happened at Pentecost.

Almost there. At least you admit that we believe and then act.
Now...Ephesians 2:8 tells us the means God employs to bring salvation is...faith. You have just admitted that faith occurs before obedience. We have established that we are saved through faith. Put them together: when someone believes, they possess faith > they are saved.

 

[GWH]

I was responding to Gideon300 and this thread is on the subject of water baptism. What happened to me on that Saturday night went beyond personal feelings. (Romans 8:16; 1 John 5:11-13) I am actually a big fan of hermeneutics and we need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine.

Amen, and another amen!

 

[GWH]

It is your belief that the people at Pentecost were baptized in the Spirit when they heard and believed, "coming to faith"?

If that is your belief, why would Peter tell them to repent (turn away from their sins) and be baptized, whereupon they would receive the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit?

I don't see any of the conversion stories that indicate that all that was needed was hearing, belief, and accepting the gift of salvation. They always included baptism. Since there is, scripturally, only one baptism, and we are commanded to be water baptized (per Peter and others) we HAVE to conclude that the "new" baptism that Jesus brought us was a water baptism combined with the spiritual baptism into the body of believers.

No. no! Choosing either-or is not the way to harmonize Scripture!

 

[hornetguy]

Almost there. At least you admit that we believe and then act.
Now...Ephesians 2:8 tells us the means God employs to bring salvation is...faith. You have just admitted that faith occurs before obedience. We have established that we are saved through faith. Put them together: when someone believes, they possess faith > they are saved.

Please stop with the condescension.... "at least I admit...." Of COURSE belief comes before acting on it, otherwise there would BE no "acting on it".... good grief.

Ephesians 2 is NOT a full, detail by detail description of how we are to be saved. It is simply stating that we come to salvation through believing and faith, and all of that is only because of the grace of God.

If you choose to make that your definitive "all you gotta do" path to salvation, then you have to write off all the other scriptures that describe in more detail what we are to do..

 

[Cameron143]

Please stop with the condescension.... "at least I admit...." Of COURSE belief comes before acting on it, otherwise there would BE no "acting on it".... good grief.

Ephesians 2 is NOT a full, detail by detail description of how we are to be saved. It is simply stating that we come to salvation through believing and faith, and all of that is only because of the grace of God.

If you choose to make that your definitive "all you gotta do" path to salvation, then you have to write off all the other scriptures that describe in more detail what we are to do..

My apologies for sounding condescending. I'm actually enjoying the discussion.

The same passage that speaks of salvation being by grace through faith goes on to prohibit any action on our part being able to contribute to our salvation.

To be sure, there are some passages that seem to suggest otherwise. It is just as sure that both things have to be able to be reconciled to find the truth. I shared with you how I reconcile the verses. Unlike what you said I would have to do...which is itself condescending, I do not need to ignore any scripture. I merely have to explain how both seemingly conflicting passages can be reconciled. I have done that. You may not agree with my explanation, but I have shown how both can be reconciled.

It seems your argument is that you believe there are verses that suggest more is required in salvation, and that includes action on our part. So...how is something we must do to be saved not a work according Ephesians 2:9?

 

[Gideon300]

So what? That was what was preached. When I was born again, it was not preached. I was born again anyway. For months I had neither the knowledge or the opportunity. I was surrounded by water, being on a warship and all.

When I discovered the truth, I was baptised. I've baptised someone myself. We encourage believers to be baptised. But we also know that baptism does not save anyone.

The topic of the thread isn't whether baptism saves or not. You should read the original post again. I know just getting wet can't save anyone, but that's not the question of this thread.

This has been discussed before on here. That is: Is baptism integral to the gospel and should it be preached to new believers? Surprisingly (to me anyway), it's not being preached to new believers in many cases these days. Why is that? It certainly seemed to be an important component of the gospel in the beginning. Forget about whether baptism saves or not. The Lord expects us to preach and practice baptism. Isn't the Lord's expectation enough? Do you believe that simply obeying the Lord's command to baptize new believers is somehow teaching works?

No. It is only "works" if people make salvation conditional on being baptised.

I also think it is important that believer's know what baptism is really about. That should be as soon as possible. However, vast numbers of Christians are taught that baby sprinkling is baptism. I do not agree, but I do know the theological basis for those who accept infant baptism. I'm not about to get into a fight over it. Our small group advises anyone who is not baptised to do so. We will baptise them ourselves, if they are willing. Or they are free to go to a formal pastor (I have no formal qualifications).

 

[hornetguy]

My apologies for sounding condescending. I'm actually enjoying the discussion.

The same passage that speaks of salvation being by grace through faith goes on to prohibit any action on our part being able to contribute to our salvation.

To be sure, there are some passages that seem to suggest otherwise. It is just as sure that both things have to be able to be reconciled to find the truth. I shared with you how I reconcile the verses. Unlike what you said I would have to do...which is itself condescending, I do not need to ignore any scripture. I merely have to explain how both seemingly conflicting passages can be reconciled. I have done that. You may not agree with my explanation, but I have shown how both can be reconciled.

It seems your argument is that you believe there are verses that suggest more is required in salvation, and that includes action on our part. So...how is something we must do to be saved not a work according Ephesians 2:9?

What we do, by being baptized is not a "work" to earn salvation, it is simply obedience to what God asks of us. As stated in scripture, it is an appeal to God for a clear conscience.
It is no more a work than Naaman dipping in the Jordan... he was obeying God. It was, for lack of a better word, a requirement to show his obedience. We do the same thing in baptism. The dunking in water doesn't physically DO anything, other than show obedience to what God asks of us. If we refuse to do that, or even make it an optional "good thing to do", we minimize the importance of it... it is our "death, burial, and resurrection" in obedience to God's will.
A "work" would be our belief that we can be "good" enough, or do enough good works to earn salvation. Baptism is obedience to God's will... and thusly can never be construed as a "work" to earn salvation. It is obedience. This was taught us at Pentecost first, and in every other example after that.
And I certainly did not intend to sound condescending. I apologize if that's the way it sounded.

 

[TrustandObey]

agreed it was to leading unto Spirit Baptism from Daddy, Father, Papa to us all to be born new in Son Jesus's risen Life for us all to love in the same mercy and truth given us by Son going to that cross willingly for us all, for me at least, thanks agreed

I have read and reread your 53 words and still cannot understand what you are attempting to say.

 

[TrustandObey]

Sure there is. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

Like I said before. "Perfect Harmony."

Your narrative is quite a stretch.

No one writes this way and certainly Luke did not.

Your convoluted reasoning is but a grasping at straws.

With your train of thought nothing in the Bible is safe.

You seem to be attempting to harmonize these verses with faith alone regeneration theology.

Am I correct?

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

Regardless of what we may personally believe about the purpose of water baptism (sign or essential) Jesus certainly was a proponent.
Can we at least agree on this?

Jesus was Not a proponent of water baptism for salvation from hell.
IF He were, that would mean:

1. Faith of the sinner is not in the person of Christ, but in the person of sin being obedient to the water ritual.

2. Jesus said, It is finished," but was wrong, because only the sinner can finish the work of righteousness by his own water baptism.

3. Jesus NEVER saved the thief on the cross because he never got water baptized.

4. Jesus never saved anyone because He never baptized anyone in water.

Those are the conclusions that baptismal salvationists would need to come to if taken to their "logical" conclusions. Roman Catholicism, Mormons, some Restorationists sects.and certain protestant denominations.

 

[Cameron143]

What we do, by being baptized is not a "work" to earn salvation, it is simply obedience to what God asks of us. As stated in scripture, it is an appeal to God for a clear conscience.
It is no more a work than Naaman dipping in the Jordan... he was obeying God. It was, for lack of a better word, a requirement to show his obedience. We do the same thing in baptism. The dunking in water doesn't physically DO anything, other than show obedience to what God asks of us. If we refuse to do that, or even make it an optional "good thing to do", we minimize the importance of it... it is our "death, burial, and resurrection" in obedience to God's will.
A "work" would be our belief that we can be "good" enough, or do enough good works to earn salvation. Baptism is obedience to God's will... and thusly can never be construed as a "work" to earn salvation. It is obedience. This was taught us at Pentecost first, and in every other example after that.
And I certainly did not intend to sound condescending. I apologize if that's the way it sounded.

We differ on what a work is. A work is something we do in my opinion. And if we must do something to be saved, how is that not a work? Further, how is that believing in Christ? How is it faith in Him if one believes that acts of obedience are required? How is this not trusting in Christ plus trusting in what you believe is required? If I ask if you if you are not baptized can one be saved I suspect you will say no. So as much as you say you are trusting only in Christ, you are also trusting in your act of being baptized, as well as anything else you believe is required. Simply because it is an act of obedience doesn't change that. It is an act of obedience every bit as much as Jesus' acts of obedience were actions that provided for our salvation. For me, His actions were sufficient for my salvation.